1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Yate wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I prefer to avoid giving Synthesis the respect of discussing it as if it were a "real" ending. It's an indoctrination ending. Whether or not the concept of Synthesis is moral, transhumanistic, abominable, or whatever, is irrelevant.

really?

just... really?

Someone believes differently than I do?  That's unpossible!

[Dubozz]

In the end I pretend there is no middle option at all.

[Wayning_Star]

Ashep123 wrote...

Catalyst said for Synthesis that the cycle will end he did not say anything that there will be peace.

really tho, the catalyst doens't 'get' to say much about anything, what after the crucible got ahold of it. It would seem who ever designed it and the choices menue actually IS the MEU Apex race.

funny that no one seems interested in that fact,eh?

[Xamufam]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Troxa wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

 The inclusion of synthesis goes beyond space magic, it actually breaks the logic of the Reapers existence.

Writer Arthur C. Clarke proposed that any civilization sufficiently advanced would have technology that is indistiguishable from magic.  

And that is the crux of the problem introduced by Starkid with synthesis.
Just how advanced would a technology need to be in order to combine
Shepard's DNA with all living things, galaxy wide, and with machines? 

Scientists have thought about the issue of advanced civilizations and their
theoretical capabilities, and even how to classify advancements.

The Kardashev
scale is a general method of classifying how technologically advanced a
civilization is. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet astronomer
Nikolai Kardashev.

Kardashev defined three levels of civilizations, based on the order of magnitude and the amount of power available to them:

 
Type I: "Technological level close to the level presently (here
referring to 1964) attained on earth, with energy consumption at ≈4×1019
erg/sec[2] (4 × 1012 watts.) Guillermo A. Lemarchand stated this as "A
level near contemporary terrestrial civilization with an energy
capability equivalent to the solar insolation on Earth, between 1016 and
10 17 watts."[3]

Type II: "A civilization capable of harnessing the energy radiated by its own star (for example, the stage
of successful construction of a Dyson sphere), with energy consumption
at ≈4×1033 erg/sec.[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A civilization capable
of utilizing and channeling the entire radiation output of its star.
The energy utilization would then be comparable to the luminosity of our
Sun, about 4 × 1026 watts."[3]

Type III: "A civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy, with energy
consumption at≈4×1044 erg/sec."[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A
civilization with access to the power comparable to the luminosity of
the entire Milky Way galaxy, about 4 × 1037 Watts."[3]

A fourth classification, Type IV, was added by Profesor Dr. Zoltan Galantai, and expanded upon by the late astrophysicist Carl Sagan, and also by theoretical physicist Dr. Michio Kaku. A Type IV civilization controls the energy output of the visible universe.

Another extension, to the Kardashev scale, was introduced by theoretical physicist and mathematician Dr. John D. Barrow who has postualated that civilizations may also and/or instead, focus on the micro rather than the macro.

"Type I-minus is capable of manipulating objects over the scale of
themselves: building structures, mining, joining and breaking solids; 

Type II-minus is capable of manipulating genes and altering the development
of living things, transplanting or replacing parts of
themselves, reading and engineering their genetic code; 

Type III-minus is capable of manipulating molecules and molecular bonds, creating new materials; 

Type IV-minus is capable of manipulating individual atoms, creating
nanotechnologies on the atomic scale and creating complex forms of
artificial life; 

Type V-minus is capable of manipulating the atomic nucleus and engineering the nucleons that compose it; 

Type VI-minus is capable of manipulating the most elementary particles of
matter (quarks and leptons) to create organized complexity among
populations of elementary particles; 

Type Omega-minus is capable of manipulating the basic structure of space and time"

Which brings us back to Synthesis. In order for Starkid to effect Synthesis,
and use Shepard's DNA to combine living tissue, plants, animals, both
levo-protein races (Asari, Human) and dextro-protein species (Quarians),
with non-organic technology,  Starkid, would need to understand and
have access to technology at the level of either a Type IV or Type
IV-minus civilization.

This would make Starkid a 'god'. To paraphrase Kirk 'what does god want with Shepard?'  

If Starkid has that type of power, the power of a Type IV or TypeIV-minus
civilization, then nothing, even Leviathan, nothing in the galaxy could
oppose him. At that level Starkid is truly invincible. The denizens of
the galaxy would be like amoeba in comparison to Starkid.

There
would be no reason for the Reapers.In fact the war would be over before
we knew there was supposed to be a war. Starkid could usurp Shepard's
DNA, enact Synthesis, and it would be a done deal.One moment human, the
next transhuman, with no explanation of how it was done.

 If the
designers, of the Crucible, were a type IV or Type Iv-minus
civilization, they would have far outpaced the Reapers and Starkid, and
would have destroyed or neutralized the threat.  

If the plans,
for the Crucible, originated with a Type IV civilization, why not just
outright help? Why give a super WMD to the, in comparison to them,
'amoeba'?

If Leviathan originated the Crucible, and the Crucible
is a tool made by a Type IV or Type IV-minus civilization, then
Leviathan are that Civilization, and they should not be running from
anything.  

And so at best, the introduction of Synthesis has created a paradox.

Why go through endless cycles of harvesting, when you have the power of creation?

It can't be nanites: there is not enough matter in the galaxy to
support a nanite wave that big.
the only way for synthesis to exist is atomic manipulation & to get that you have to have the secrets of the universe & a race that have that would have destroyed the reapers without blinking.
If you are so advanced that you can manipulate strings in atoms then you
have the power to ' destroy the reapers without blinking' . (you have
the secrets of the universe if you have that power)

actually, the ' destroyed the reapers without blinking' isn't part of
any 'cosmic' equation. The universe it's self may do that by chance
alone, but NO race as advanced would consider 'destruction' as that
would limit their ability to understand them selves.  This is a common
organic trait to explain their fears as reality barters their existence.


For such advanced society, "life" would take a different
meaning, just as Shepard was resurrected, no one complains about it at
all, eventhough it makes Shep seem like a natural 'cheat code, in of
themselves. For the aforementioned apex races, there would probably be
more effort in even noticing the reapers, muchless dealing with the
confused entities.

If you are so advanced that you can manipulate strings in atoms then you
have the power to ' destroy the reapers without blinking' . (you have
the secrets of the universe if you have that power)
Many complained about shepards resurrection but it wasnt as big, many felt it
was cheap atempt to remake the character & the trilogy after drew
left.
actully when it comes to life & death many would choose too destroy them, it doesnt matter how advanced you are. And an advanced society would rather take their own path, than take someone
elses path.(giving nukes to cavemen). They would understand that they
aren't ready if they don't get there on their own terms

If you are so advanced that you can manipulate strings in atoms then
you have the power to ' destroy the reapers without blinking' . (you
have the secrets of the universe if you have that power)

The most
logical thing bioware could have put on the ending was to activate a
signal that made the reapers explode. By finding reapers codes &
manipulate them

Modifié par Troxa, 04 janvier 2013 - 05:29 .

[MKfighter89]

It is funny imo that high ems gives "synthesis", but also Destroy breath scene???

[Reorte]

JillBSuiT wrote...

It is funny imo that high ems gives "synthesis", but also Destroy breath scene???

#
IIRC the requirement for the breath scene is higher than for Synthesis.

[ziloe]

Reorte wrote...

JillBSuiT wrote...

It is funny imo that high ems gives "synthesis", but also Destroy breath scene???

#
IIRC the requirement for the breath scene is higher than for Synthesis.

Yes, but for actual options, you need the highest EMS to gain the ultimate choice. Which is... apparently Synthesis.

[ziloe]

vivaladricas wrote...

nevermind. 

You entered into a thread, just to post nevermind? Okay then...

[ziloe]

Troxa wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Troxa wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

 The inclusion of synthesis goes beyond space magic, it actually breaks the logic of the Reapers existence.

Writer Arthur C. Clarke proposed that any civilization sufficiently advanced would have technology that is indistiguishable from magic.  

And that is the crux of the problem introduced by Starkid with synthesis.
Just how advanced would a technology need to be in order to combine
Shepard's DNA with all living things, galaxy wide, and with machines? 

Scientists have thought about the issue of advanced civilizations and their
theoretical capabilities, and even how to classify advancements.

The Kardashev
scale is a general method of classifying how technologically advanced a
civilization is. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet astronomer
Nikolai Kardashev.

Kardashev defined three levels of civilizations, based on the order of magnitude and the amount of power available to them:

 
Type I: "Technological level close to the level presently (here
referring to 1964) attained on earth, with energy consumption at ≈4×1019
erg/sec[2] (4 × 1012 watts.) Guillermo A. Lemarchand stated this as "A
level near contemporary terrestrial civilization with an energy
capability equivalent to the solar insolation on Earth, between 1016 and
10 17 watts."[3]

Type II: "A civilization capable of harnessing the energy radiated by its own star (for example, the stage
of successful construction of a Dyson sphere), with energy consumption
at ≈4×1033 erg/sec.[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A civilization capable
of utilizing and channeling the entire radiation output of its star.
The energy utilization would then be comparable to the luminosity of our
Sun, about 4 × 1026 watts."[3]

Type III: "A civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy, with energy
consumption at≈4×1044 erg/sec."[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A
civilization with access to the power comparable to the luminosity of
the entire Milky Way galaxy, about 4 × 1037 Watts."[3]

A fourth classification, Type IV, was added by Profesor Dr. Zoltan Galantai, and expanded upon by the late astrophysicist Carl Sagan, and also by theoretical physicist Dr. Michio Kaku. A Type IV civilization controls the energy output of the visible universe.

Another extension, to the Kardashev scale, was introduced by theoretical physicist and mathematician Dr. John D. Barrow who has postualated that civilizations may also and/or instead, focus on the micro rather than the macro.

"Type I-minus is capable of manipulating objects over the scale of
themselves: building structures, mining, joining and breaking solids; 

Type II-minus is capable of manipulating genes and altering the development
of living things, transplanting or replacing parts of
themselves, reading and engineering their genetic code; 

Type III-minus is capable of manipulating molecules and molecular bonds, creating new materials; 

Type IV-minus is capable of manipulating individual atoms, creating
nanotechnologies on the atomic scale and creating complex forms of
artificial life; 

Type V-minus is capable of manipulating the atomic nucleus and engineering the nucleons that compose it; 

Type VI-minus is capable of manipulating the most elementary particles of
matter (quarks and leptons) to create organized complexity among
populations of elementary particles; 

Type Omega-minus is capable of manipulating the basic structure of space and time"

Which brings us back to Synthesis. In order for Starkid to effect Synthesis,
and use Shepard's DNA to combine living tissue, plants, animals, both
levo-protein races (Asari, Human) and dextro-protein species (Quarians),
with non-organic technology,  Starkid, would need to understand and
have access to technology at the level of either a Type IV or Type
IV-minus civilization.

This would make Starkid a 'god'. To paraphrase Kirk 'what does god want with Shepard?'  

If Starkid has that type of power, the power of a Type IV or TypeIV-minus
civilization, then nothing, even Leviathan, nothing in the galaxy could
oppose him. At that level Starkid is truly invincible. The denizens of
the galaxy would be like amoeba in comparison to Starkid.

There
would be no reason for the Reapers.In fact the war would be over before
we knew there was supposed to be a war. Starkid could usurp Shepard's
DNA, enact Synthesis, and it would be a done deal.One moment human, the
next transhuman, with no explanation of how it was done.

 If the
designers, of the Crucible, were a type IV or Type Iv-minus
civilization, they would have far outpaced the Reapers and Starkid, and
would have destroyed or neutralized the threat.  

If the plans,
for the Crucible, originated with a Type IV civilization, why not just
outright help? Why give a super WMD to the, in comparison to them,
'amoeba'?

If Leviathan originated the Crucible, and the Crucible
is a tool made by a Type IV or Type IV-minus civilization, then
Leviathan are that Civilization, and they should not be running from
anything.  

And so at best, the introduction of Synthesis has created a paradox.

Why go through endless cycles of harvesting, when you have the power of creation?

It can't be nanites: there is not enough matter in the galaxy to
support a nanite wave that big.
the only way for synthesis to exist is atomic manipulation & to get that you have to have the secrets of the universe & a race that have that would have destroyed the reapers without blinking.

actually, the ' destroyed the reapers without blinking' isn't part of any 'cosmic' equation. The universe it's self may do that by chance alone, but NO race as advanced would consider 'destruction' as that would limit their ability to understand them selves.  This is a common organic trait to explain their fears as reality barters their existence.

For such advanced society, "life" would take a different meaning, just as Shepard was resurrected, no one complains about it at all, eventhough it makes Shep seem like a natural 'cheat code, in of themselves. For the aforementioned apex races, there would probably be more effort in even noticing the reapers, muchless dealing with the confused entities.

If you are so advanced that you can manipulate strings in atoms then you have the power to ' destroy the reapers without blinking' . (you have the secrets of the universe if you have that power)

Many complained about shepards resurrection but it wasnt as big, many felt it was cheap atempt to remake the character & the trilogy after drew left.
actully when it comes to life & death many would choose too destroy them, it doesnt matter how advanced you are.
And an advanced society would rather take their own path, than take someone elses path.(giving nukes to cavemen). They would understand that they aren't ready if they don't get there on their own terms

The most logical thing bioware could have put on the ending was to activate a signal that made the reapers explode. By finding reapers codes & manipulate them

That was essentially the destroy ending already though, the only difference is it also took away any chance of another AI race becoming the next ones as well.

[HunterX6]

I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

Modifié par HunterX6, 27 décembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Wayning_Star]

HunterX6 wrote...

I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

yeah, I look at it as the "beginning end' of ME or control/destroy or even refuse, if some future Shepard type picks it, all wrapped into one choice.

But, I think it sticks in craw as the concept enters the godmode area of sci fi. That is, altering space time and most/if no all matter on the most basic level. Many may take that as tinkering with devine design, shaping the MEU in Sheps image. A bit of a prickly pear/forbidden fruit scenerio. This coined in the phrase "space magic". Hence the witch hunting..lol

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 27 décembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[ElSuperGecko]

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

In Synthesis, all life - Organic, Synthetic, whatever - is simply being manipulated into a form that the Catalyst believes to be "perfect".  It implies that life as it currently exists is fundamentally flawed, and in need of outside interference.  Better yet, this is an arbitrary and irrevocable change that being (regardless of the Catalyst's sentiments) forced upon everything, regardless of whether they want it or not, regardless of whether they need it or not (and that's by no means certain).

And of course, it leaves the Reapers as the apex, dominant race.  Whatever the Reapers want or plan to do next, whether it's beneficial or detrimental to the rest of the galaxy, there's absolutely nothing left capable of stopping them.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 27 décembre 2012 - 05:42 .

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

In Synthesis, all life - Organic, Synthetic, whatever - is simply being manipulated into a form that the Catalyst believes to be "perfect".  It implies that life as it currently exists is fundamentally flawed, and in need of outside interference.  Better yet, this is an arbitrary and irrevocable change that being (regardless of the Catalyst's sentiments) forced upon everything, regardless of whether they want it or not, regardless of whether they need it or not (and that's by no means certain).

And of course, it leaves the Reapers as the apex, dominant race.  Whatever the Reapers want or plan to do next, whether it's beneficial or detrimental to the rest of the galaxy, there's absolutely nothing left capable of stopping them.

not the catalyst, so much as the crucible, that 'changed' the catalyst, made 'choices' apparent..available.

who did that? Who decided the choices? The reapers aren't even a race, but are the confinement of all those harvested over the countless cycles, barely controlled via the catalyst program. The leviathan designed the catalyst and it designed the reapership constraints.

The Leviathan are the apex race here. The catalyst an unwilling thrall...But the reapers? A cheap trick on the MEU.

[clennon8]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

That's such a good point.  It isn't evolution unless, you know, you evolve into it.  It's waving a magic wand and turning everyone into something else.  There are no shortcuts in evolution, just as there are no shortcuts in growing up.  It's like if somebody 20 million years ago came across a lemur, sprinkled magic dust on it, and said "Presto! You're now a human!  Now act like it!"

[Wayning_Star]

clennon8 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

That's such a good point.  It isn't evolution unless, you know, you evolve into it.  It's waving a magic wand and turning everyone into something else.  There are no shortcuts in evolution, just as there are no shortcuts in growing up.  It's like if somebody 20 million years ago came across a lemur, sprinkled magic dust on it, and said "Presto! You're now a human!  Now act like it!"

nature forces change all the time, even includes the organic beings urge to learn stuff...even IF it's kind of iffy...
 
Why do you hate Mother Nature?!?

[Dr_Extrem]

if something goes wrong after synthesis:

how can we stop reaper technology, if we became reaper-tech as well?

are we going to have killswitches? ... like agent hermann? are we just another testrun for the catalyst? ...

[clennon8]

Wayning_Star wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

That's such a good point.  It isn't evolution unless, you know, you evolve into it.  It's waving a magic wand and turning everyone into something else.  There are no shortcuts in evolution, just as there are no shortcuts in growing up.  It's like if somebody 20 million years ago came across a lemur, sprinkled magic dust on it, and said "Presto! You're now a human!  Now act like it!"

nature forces change all the time, even includes the organic beings urge to learn stuff...even IF it's kind of iffy...
 
Why do you hate Mother Nature?!?

How did you get THAT from what I said.

Evolution works through natural selection and tiny incremental mutations over millions of years.  Not through magical instantaneous transformations.

[Wayning_Star]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

if something goes wrong after synthesis:

how can we stop reaper technology, if we became reaper-tech as well?

are we going to have killswitches? ... like agent hermann? are we just another testrun for the catalyst? ...

my theory is that it wouldn't be necessary, as the apparent chaos is chasened. What could possibly cause such chaos anyway?

Logic kind of predicts that the catalyst 'search' would be over for the end of chaos, so it would actually just shut down, as it's core programming is no longer needed. We don't actually "become" reaper tech, as it were really Leviathan tech. All in all, synthesis blends into the Leviathan as well, lessening their grip on Apex. They're the real threat and are organic with all that comes with their being in existence billions of year ahead of current, shackled organic/synthetic beings. They've quite the jump on the competition..as we don't even know where and when they are?!? And/or much about them really, other than they really really really LIKE thralls..

[Wayning_Star]

being a thrall ain't so bad.... I guess...

[Wayning_Star]

clennon8 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

That's such a good point.  It isn't evolution unless, you know, you evolve into it.  It's waving a magic wand and turning everyone into something else.  There are no shortcuts in evolution, just as there are no shortcuts in growing up.  It's like if somebody 20 million years ago came across a lemur, sprinkled magic dust on it, and said "Presto! You're now a human!  Now act like it!"

nature forces change all the time, even includes the organic beings urge to learn stuff...even IF it's kind of iffy...
 
Why do you hate Mother Nature?!?

How did you get THAT from what I said.

Evolution works through natural selection and tiny incremental mutations over millions of years.  Not through magical instantaneous transformations.

evolution works only IF the consideration for the changes are available. That is, there is no 'change' without imputis. Nature created the Leviathan and with that the catalyst. So mother nature it's self,via intellect caused for the chaos.

This invokes change. The rapidity is effected via the Leviathan and its considerable technology, making for the instantainous multiplicity. The more you know the faster you grow.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 27 décembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[HunterX6]

Wayning_Star wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HunterX6 wrote...
I love the synthesis ending. Its like a new form of evolution for the galaxy. Its interesting and there is no better ending in my opinion and also in some if my friends and family opinion.

I wouldn't call it a new form of evolution, as nothing is actually evolving at all in Synthesis.  It's an enforced change.

That's such a good point.  It isn't evolution unless, you know, you evolve into it.  It's waving a magic wand and turning everyone into something else.  There are no shortcuts in evolution, just as there are no shortcuts in growing up.  It's like if somebody 20 million years ago came across a lemur, sprinkled magic dust on it, and said "Presto! You're now a human!  Now act like it!"

nature forces change all the time, even includes the organic beings urge to learn stuff...even IF it's kind of iffy...
 
Why do you hate Mother Nature?!?

How did you get THAT from what I said.

Evolution works through natural selection and tiny incremental mutations over millions of years.  Not through magical instantaneous transformations.

evolution works only IF the consideration for the changes are available. That is, there is no 'change' without imputis. Nature created the Leviathan and with that the catalyst. So mother nature it's self,via intellect caused for the chaos.

This invokes change. The rapidity is effected via the Leviathan and its considerable technology, making for the instantainous multiplicity. The more you know the faster you grow.

completly agree with you.

[clennon8]

Wow. I wonder if you realize what a bunch of gobbledy-****** that is.

[Wayning_Star]

clennon8 wrote...

Wow. I wonder if you realize what a bunch of gobbledy-****** that is.

oh, com'on now, you LIKE it.. admit it.. lol

edit: the  gobbledy-****** arguement always works in terms of evolutionary changes, per se.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 27 décembre 2012 - 07:03 .