1009 réponses à ce sujet

[ElSuperGecko]

Krunjar wrote...
And even if they can't forcing our own sense of biological comfort to define things is just plain bigoted.

....which is an ironic statement, since by choosing Synthesis you would basically be forcing the Catalyst's (and therefore the Reapers) ideals on every living being in the galaxy.  Doesn't matter what the Turians think.  Doesn't matter what the Asari think.  Doesn't matter what the Geth think.  Doesn't matter what the Hanar think.  To hell with diversity - you're all being Synthesised, whether you like it or not.  Suck my big green beam.

Synthesis is the genetic equivalent of solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's fingers.

[EnvyTB075]

Keatstwo wrote...

I really don't understand this "it makes everyone the same" argument. All it does is give everyone the same basic DNA structure. You already have this in common with every other human being on the planet, does that make us the same? Obviously not.

Is a dog a human?

[Keatstwo]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

I really don't understand this "it makes everyone the same" argument. All it does is give everyone the same basic DNA structure. You already have this in common with every other human being on the planet, does that make us the same? Obviously not.

Is a dog a human?

No, not even close. And yet we have the same double helix DNA made of nucleotides and sugars. See how that works?

[EnvyTB075]

Keatstwo wrote...

No, not even close. And yet we have the same double helix DNA made of nucleotides and sugars. See how that works?

It doesn't work. Similar does not equal the same, and a dog is a dog and a human is a human. Synthesis gives all species the same genetic coding, so a human is a turian is a quarian is a plant. It simply doesn't work on a practical level when you don't waive the part where the writers had a brain fart.

[NightAntilli]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

No, not even close. And yet we have the same double helix DNA made of nucleotides and sugars. See how that works?

It doesn't work. Similar does not equal the same, and a dog is a dog and a human is a human. Synthesis gives all species the same genetic coding, so a human is a turian is a quarian is a plant. It simply doesn't work on a practical level when you don't waive the part where the writers had a brain fart.

That's not what synthesis is...

Always funny to see how people make up their own version of something just so they can justify hating on it. 

[Keatstwo]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

No, not even close. And yet we have the same double helix DNA made of nucleotides and sugars. See how that works?

It doesn't work. Similar does not equal the same, and a dog is a dog and a human is a human. Synthesis gives all species the same genetic coding, so a human is a turian is a quarian is a plant. It simply doesn't work on a practical level when you don't waive the part where the writers had a brain fart.

What? There are clearly still distinct species in the epilogue. Krogans are still krogans, quarians are still quarians. If we were all coded the same way we'd have the same genes, which hasn't happened. All it does is creates a new hybrid framework for DNA to remove the difference between organic and synthetic. As a side effect of this turians / quarians and the other species have been brought genetically closer, but we're no more related to a dog afterwards than we were before.

EDIT: Exactly what it does to synthetics is more circumspect and i'll admit the "new DNA" thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense in this regard. But the point still stands that all organics don't appear to have been homogenised.

Modifié par Keatstwo, 06 janvier 2013 - 02:10 .

[Dr_Extrem]

then, there was no new dna created.

there are several established methods, to alter the dna but all use retroviral treatment.


the binary helix salesman (rafael vargas) on noveria, tells us how genetic alteration works. the retrovirus you get, alters your cells, the alteration takes effect, after cell division happens. the old cell stays the was it was - only the stored dna is altered. the new cell will be something new - not the old. this process can take up to 10 years.

what we see is not a simple dna-alteration (like the starchild makes us want to believe). it is a complete transformation on the cellular level.

[Keatstwo]

Yeah, I dunno, the pseudoscience behind it falls apart a bit under scrutiny but I think it's obvious that they didn't intend for it to "make all species the same". The "new DNA" thing doesn't make all that much sense because if you give synthetics DNA they're basically just organics now, meh.

Ieldra's synthesis compendium thread goes into detail about this stuff and he reckons the whole "new DNA" business is an unfortunate relic from the original explanation.

[Xamufam]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

then, there was no new dna created.

there are several established methods, to alter the dna but all use retroviral treatment.


the binary helix salesman (rafael vargas) on noveria, tells us how genetic alteration works. the retrovirus you get, alters your cells, the alteration takes effect, after cell division happens. the old cell stays the was it was - only the stored dna is altered. the new cell will be something new - not the old. this process can take up to 10 years.

what we see is not a simple dna-alteration (like the starchild makes us want to believe). it is a complete transformation on the cellular level.

you mean alteration at sub atomic level
even the level of strings (string theory)

Modifié par Troxa, 06 janvier 2013 - 02:17 .

[WhiteKnyght]

If Synthesis is an abomination, Miranda and Grunt, and Shepard himself are as well.

- Miranda is a completely artificial human being, the offspring of science, a crime against nature in the eyes of some people.

- Grunt is a clone based on tissue of several Krogan warlords, distilling all their best traits into one form. Basically the same science as Miranda.

- Shepard died. In the eyes of a religious person, he's gone and his soul went to Heaven or to Hell. But Cerberus took his corpse, reconstructed it using implants and DNA modifications and brought him back to life. A deeply religious person could see this as an insult against God, mankind claiming they're just as powerful and can do the same without Him. They would also see the writers using this as the writers attempt to pass Shepard off as Jesus. Coming back from the dead to save the many.

But Bioware's writers don't exist to pander to one particular viewpoint, except their own. That's the part people don't get and refuse to understand.

[Xamufam]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
1. That prothean vision is just mumbo jumbo (the prothean did'nt even know what the crucible did) - no, it's a warning. It clearly shows organic parts merging with synthetic, and depicts the fall of the Prothean race.

If you meet javik in me 3 he clears the vision for you & that shows you that what you saw was protheans beings wiped out by the reapers

youtu.be/rfg809VpHSY

To tired to argue about the rest of the stuff

[ElSuperGecko]

Troxa wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
1. That prothean vision is just mumbo jumbo (the prothean did'nt even know what the crucible did) - no, it's a warning. It clearly shows organic parts merging with synthetic, and depicts the fall of the Prothean race.

If you meet javik in me 3 he clears the vision for you & that shows you that what you saw was protheans beings wiped out by the reapers

youtu.be/rfg809VpHSY

To tired to argue about the rest of the stuff

"You found one!  You saw it all!  Our destruction... our warnings!"

Yeah, you better take a break Troxa.  You're proving my point better than I am.

[Xamufam]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Troxa wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
1. That prothean vision is just mumbo jumbo (the prothean did'nt even know what the crucible did) - no, it's a warning. It clearly shows organic parts merging with synthetic, and depicts the fall of the Prothean race.

If you meet javik in me 3 he clears the vision for you & that shows you that what you saw was protheans beings wiped out by the reapers

youtu.be/rfg809VpHSY

To tired to argue about the rest of the stuff

"You found one!  You saw it all!  Our destruction... our warnings!"

Yeah, you better take a break Troxa.  You're proving my point better than I am.

look again it doesnt show anything about synthesis
ME 1
The vision that even shepard indicates is broken up & completely unclear

Modifié par Troxa, 06 janvier 2013 - 03:51 .

[ziloe]

Krunjar wrote...

I know right. And people quote mordin's speach about the collectors as if the reapers and collectors are the same thing. Clearly missing the point. And images of "reaper forms" in society such as the banshee and abomination pic are just silly cos with the reapers working for us those forms can be modified easily enough. Perhaps even giving them back their originals. And even if they can't forcing our own sense of biological comfort to define things is just plain bigoted.

It has nothing to do with the collectors and reapers being different. It's about granting society the next stage of evolution, before they are ready as a society. 

It's also silly to think it just grants understanding, because if that's the argument, we already knew that when we watched the Geth fight on our side. We didn't need some magical explosion to tell us, genetically, hey, it's cool.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Did I just read that the vision from the Eden Prime beacon was *clearly* showing us something?

The vision that even the protagonist indicates is broken up and completely unclear?

Now I've seen everything.

[ElSuperGecko]

Troxa wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Troxa wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
1. That prothean vision is just mumbo jumbo (the prothean did'nt even know what the crucible did) - no, it's a warning. It clearly shows organic parts merging with synthetic, and depicts the fall of the Prothean race.

If you meet javik in me 3 he clears the vision for you & that shows you that what you saw was protheans beings wiped out by the reapers

youtu.be/rfg809VpHSY

To tired to argue about the rest of the stuff

"You found one!  You saw it all!  Our destruction... our warnings!"

Yeah, you better take a break Troxa.  You're proving my point better than I am.

look again it doesnt show anything about synthesis
ME 1
The vision that even shepard indicates is broken up & completely unclear

Look at what I wrote. 

"it's a warning. It clearly shows organic parts merging with synthetic, and depicts the fall of the Prothean race."

Watch the video you posted.  You proved my point for me.  Well done, Batman.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Did I just read that the vision from the Eden Prime beacon was *clearly* showing us something?

The vision that even the protagonist indicates is broken up and completely unclear?

Now I've seen everything.

Yes, you saw me say it was CLEARLY a warning and a foreshadowing of Synthesis.

We are told in ME1 that the Prothean beacon message is a warning.  We are told in the video that Troxa kindly posted above by a Prothean itself that the beacon visions were a warning.

I can see how this must come as a shocking revelation for you.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[Cadeym]

NightAntilli wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

No, not even close. And yet we have the same double helix DNA made of nucleotides and sugars. See how that works?

It doesn't work. Similar does not equal the same, and a dog is a dog and a human is a human. Synthesis gives all species the same genetic coding, so a human is a turian is a quarian is a plant. It simply doesn't work on a practical level when you don't waive the part where the writers had a brain fart.

That's not what synthesis is...

Always funny to see how people make up their own version of something just so they can justify hating on it. 

Please do continue. You obviously know a great deal about how one can alter the molecular structure of both living creatures aswell as objects without either altering their basic function, visual representation or even a persons personality.

Even if we leave science behind, it is entirely implausible that the green beam could somehow merge organic and synthetic life into some new DNA code. How did it happen, did the green beam just pull the entire universe apart and then reassemble it once more. How did everything get neat green glowing circuits when even inanimate objects are altered aswell. How do you alter the "DNA" of a synthetic entity or for that matter anything else that isn't composed of organic material that can mutate (which could have been a logical explanation; had they just restricted the change to organic beings).

Modifié par Mouseraider, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Did I just read that the vision from the Eden Prime beacon was *clearly* showing us something?

The vision that even the protagonist indicates is broken up and completely unclear?

Now I've seen everything.

Yes, you saw me say it was CLEARLY a warning and a foreshadowing of Synthesis.

We are told in ME1 that the Prothean beacon message is a warning.  We are told in the video that Troxa kindly posted above by a Prothean itself that the beacon visions were a warning.

I can see how this must come as a shocking revelation for you.

Shepard on the vision: "I saw... I'm not sure what I saw. Death? Destruction? Nothing is really clear."

Notably absent in Shepard's guessing is "fusion of synthetic and organic life."

Sorry, but when it comes down to it, I have no clue how anyone can call that broken-up and highly-alien vision "clear" ... what to say a clear warning of anything. Especially when the one person in the narrative who experienced it said it wasn't.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:13 .

[ElSuperGecko]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Shepard on the vision: "I saw... I'm not sure what I saw. Death? Destruction? Nothing is really clear."

Notably absent in Shepard's guessing is "fusion of synthetic and organic life."

Sorry, but when it comes down to it, I have no clue how anyone can call that broken-up and highly-alien vision "clear" ... what to say a clear warning of anything.

Well done.  You posted Shepard's FIRST quote after seeing the vision in the mind meld with Liara.
We then had the vision expanded upon in ME2.  T
then Javik revealed it to be without a shadow of a doubt a warning in ME3
(once again, as Troxa kindly proved this with the video link posted above).

So let's be clear ourselvwes here.

Are you telling me that the vision wasn't a warning?
Are you telling me that it doesn't show organic parts fused with synthetic devices?

[Xamufam]

@ElSuperGecko
What i have figured out is that you are either a troll or completely ignorant because it makes no sense.
There is no forshadowing about that kind of synthesis that the crucible has.
Don't bother to answer.

Modifié par Troxa, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:28 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Well done.  You posted Shepard's FIRST quote after seeing the vision in the mind meld with Liara.
We then had the vision expanded upon in ME2.  T
then Javik revealed it to be without a shadow of a doubt a warning in ME3
(once again, as Troxa kindly proved this with the video link posted above).

So let's be clear ourselvwes here.

Are you telling me that the vision wasn't a warning?
Are you telling me that it doesn't show organic parts fused with synthetic devices?

Obviously we figured out it was a warning later, but it wasn't "clear" in the least.

As to the second question, I have no idea.

... which is my point. No one can honestly claim to know what's going on.

[Xamufam]

pirate1802 wrote...

I read somewhere that ME2's protagonist was originally intended to be a separate Cerberus agent through and through, but later they decided to railroad Shepard into working for them. Is this true?

3DandBeyond wrote...

Troxa wrote...

[3DandBeyond wrote...
And ME had a Bible.  One of the writers or devs talked about it when discussing ME2.

After drew left as lead writer on me 2 the new one didn't want to continiue drew's story, he wanted it to be his vision.
the Me 2 script was halfdone when drew left, the new on rewrote it This was back when it was still being developed.
Not a 100% sure on it, was along time ago i read it.
On topic:
Ill support this dlc beause it will give more closure

This
is accurate.  Drew had a different vision.  And there were also many
ideas thrown around-IT was even one of them, along with Drew's Dark
Energy idea. 

However, we have what we have and that was never
fully fleshed out (so far it hasn't been, but who knows) and what we can
do is ask Bioware to revisit things and see if some good compromise can
be made.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13909825/154#14095128

Modifié par Troxa, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:41 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Troxa wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

then, there was no new dna created.

there are several established methods, to alter the dna but all use retroviral treatment.


the binary helix salesman (rafael vargas) on noveria, tells us how genetic alteration works. the retrovirus you get, alters your cells, the alteration takes effect, after cell division happens. the old cell stays the was it was - only the stored dna is altered. the new cell will be something new - not the old. this process can take up to 10 years.

what we see is not a simple dna-alteration (like the starchild makes us want to believe). it is a complete transformation on the cellular level.

you mean alteration at sub atomic level
even the level of strings (string theory)

for a change who creeps in - like retroviral treatment, you only have to alter the dna.

for an immidiate change, you would have to alter the existing cell. the cell is made off proteins and sugars. to alter the cell, you would have to rearrange every atom in every molecule of every cell. subatomic parts, the charge and state would have to be altered as well. within a 4-dimensional system.

18g of water, contain roughly 6.022 x 10²³ oxygen atoms and 2 x 6.022 x 10²³ atoms of hydrogen. all of them would need to be treated equally and rearranged without any mistake.

good luck with that .. the friction caused by the molecular movement alone would vapourize the cell.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:56 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Troxa wrote...
@ElSuperGecko
What i have figured out is that you are either a troll or completely ignorant because it makes no sense.
There is no forshadowing about that kind of synthesis that the crucible has.
Don't bother to answer.

"I have no counter to your argument, so you are obviously an ignorant troll".  LOL, Good one Troxa.  You're showing your true colours now.  And I'll post a reply if I feel like it, thank you very much.

Once again.  You have no understanding or comprehension of "what kind of Synthesis the Crucible has" - because it was never explained to you within the context of the game.  You can look outside the Mass Effect series for whatever answers you want, but they will only ever be headcanon, and irrelevant to the discussion.

Synthesis IS however foreshadowed by all the examples I gave to you above, and also every instance in the game series where organics are merged with synthetics.  It invariably results in indoctrinated individuals working against their own kind, and mindlesshusks enslaved by the Reapers.

You can argue that this is not the case, however it would only show your own naiviety as the Catalyst itself tells us that this is in fact the case ("we have tried a similar solution before...").

Synthesis is the Catalyst's solution.  It has tried to implent it before.  We see organics and synthetics merged throughout the game, as a result of Reaper intervention, and we invariably come into conflict with them.

If you can't see the foreshadowing there Troxa, then there's no hope for you.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 06 janvier 2013 - 04:51 .

[Xamufam]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Troxa wrote...
@ElSuperGecko
What i have figured out is that you are either a troll or completely ignorant because it makes no sense.
There is no forshadowing about that kind of synthesis that the crucible has.
Don't bother to answer.

"I have no counter to your argument, so you are obviously an ignorant troll".  LOL, Good one Troxa.  You're showing your true colours now.  And I'll post a reply if I feel like it, thank you very much.

Once again.  You have no understanding or comprehension of "what kind of Synthesis the Crucible has" - because it was never explained to you within the context of the game.  You can look outside the Mass Effect series for whatever answers you want, but they will only ever be headcanon, and irrelevant to the discussion.

Synthesis IS however foreshadowed by all the examples I gave to you above, and also every instance in the game series where organics are merged with synthetics.  It invariably results in indoctrinated individuals working against their own kind, and mindlesshusks enslaved by the Reapers.

You can argue that this is not the case, however it would only show your own naiviety as the Catalyst itself tells us that this is in fact the case ("we have tried a similar solution before...").

Synthesis is the Catalyst's solution.  It has tried to implent it before.  We see organics and synthetics merged throughout the game, as a result of Reaper intervention, and we invariably come into conflict with them.

If you can't see the foreshadowing there Troxa, then there's no hope for you.

nope you the one showing ignorance, the catalyst should not even exist, he says he is the citadel . Then why didn't he shut down the relays & bring in the reapers back in ME1 & why didn't the reapers take the citadel in me3 & shut down thge relays even an idiot would se that as an strategic advantage

the script of me 3 was leaked late in 2011 & it shows the real ending was acctully dark energy it was changed at the last minute

Modifié par Troxa, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:22 .