1009 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

Sometimes I wonder how I manage to miss all the actual action of this thread, until everyone's already gone to bed/work/whatever, lol.

Modifié par ziloe, 09 janvier 2013 - 01:50 .

[GHNR]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...
Except that clearly isn't what synthesis involves.

Irrelevant.  Shepard does not know what Synthesis will do.  The Catalyst refuses to give Shepard any more than the most basic of details - it expects Shepard to choose Synthesis on it's word alone.

Every example we've had of organics and synthetics merging throughout the series has ended in disaster.   The Prothean beacon visions and the fate of the Protheans themselves, what we learn about the origins of the Reapers, the huskified enemies we fight, the harvests, and what we know about the Reapers motives and goals prior to speaking to the Catalyst all infer that accepting the Catalyst's "perfect solution" and choosing Synthesis would be a very bad thing indeed.

You can use the ending slides and EDI's voiceover to justify your decision if you wish, but you can't use it as a basis for making your final decision as Shepard has no idea what will happen when jumping blindly and naively into the big green beam.  All Shepard has to go on regarding Synthesis is past experience and the knowledge we have gained - and that is all unequivocably bad.

Was Shepard a disaster after he was reconstructed? Reconstructed, with quite a few Synthetic parts? Gee that would make Shepard....part organic and part synthetic...

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
so it's still just information, take it as threat response if you like, and it still has nothing to do with synthesis. No relationship. I'm not seeing any 'messages of hope' related to this here,in any event.

So, by that interpretation, Liara's time capsules that we see in Refuse are also not a warning for future cycles, but merely information archives? 

You fail to inform as if that is an explanation to what is occuring in synthesis. Apparently you don't have a clue to what that is, not even head canon. So you revert to the cyborged defense of your opinion.  Liaras time capsule is far more descriptive than those 'images' Shep's privy to from the beacons, they develope slowly more informative,but still vague over time. Shep didn't take them as a warning at all, more like a message describing harvest, NOT synthesis, as that wasn't part of the messages at all. Synthesis didn't occur till the end game, so your depiction posed as description is voided.

The bait and switch routine you use for debate is non contributory to your own arguement. You've lost via your own volition. See: http://www.phrases.o...own petard.html

Sheesh..

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
You fail to inform as if that is an explanation to what is occuring in synthesis. Apparently you don't have a clue to what that is, not even head canon. So you revert to the cyborged defense of your opinion.  Liaras time capsule is far more descriptive than those 'images' Shep's privy to from the beacons, they develope slowly more informative,but still vague over time. Shep didn't take them as a warning at all, more like a message describing harvest, NOT synthesis, as that wasn't part of the messages at all. Synthesis didn't occur till the end game, so your depiction posed as description is voided.

The bait and switch routine you use for debate is non contributory to your own arguement. You've lost via your own volition. See: http://www.phrases.o...own petard.html

Sheesh..

Sheesh indeed, when you have been doing the exact same thing you now accuse me of doing for the last three pages.  "Hoisting your own petard".

Everything you have posted in this thead regarding Synthesis is nothing more than headcanon, and when confronted with in-game evidence that contradicts your claims, you conveniently bury your head in the sand and pretend it's all not happening.  "The Prothean Beacon vision isn't a warning" you petulantly pout despite all evidence to the contrary, stamping your feet in time with your outbursts.  "The clearly-depicted fusing of organic and synthetic parts aren't a foreshadowing of Synthesis", you cry, then using nothing more than guesswork and speculation and no actual facts at all to support this conclusion.

Then you criticise others for not understanding and accepting your own naively-presented interpretation of Synthesis (which fails to acknowledge or address anything and everything negative presented about the idea within the Mass Effect series, because it couldn't possibly have dangerous implications), despite the fact that we're never actually told specifically what Synthesis entails.

TL;DR?  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  You have no valid argument, Wayning Star - only your own naive and introspective headcanon, and a whole lot of bluster.  You can desperately cling to that and use it to justify your decision all you want but it doesn't invalidate any of the questions and statements I've made in this topic.  It simply ignores them, and pretends they don't exist.

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
You fail to inform as if that is an explanation to what is occuring in synthesis. Apparently you don't have a clue to what that is, not even head canon. So you revert to the cyborged defense of your opinion.  Liaras time capsule is far more descriptive than those 'images' Shep's privy to from the beacons, they develope slowly more informative,but still vague over time. Shep didn't take them as a warning at all, more like a message describing harvest, NOT synthesis, as that wasn't part of the messages at all. Synthesis didn't occur till the end game, so your depiction posed as description is voided.

The bait and switch routine you use for debate is non contributory to your own arguement. You've lost via your own volition. See: http://www.phrases.o...own petard.html

Sheesh..

Sheesh indeed, when you have been doing the exact same thing you now accuse me of doing for the last three pages.  "Hoisting your own petard".

Everything you have posted in this thead regarding Synthesis is nothing more than headcanon, and when confronted with in-game evidence that contradicts your claims, you conveniently bury your head in the sand and pretend it's all not happening.  "The Prothean Beacon vision isn't a warning" you petulantly pout despite all evidence to the contrary, stamping your feet in time with your outbursts.  "The clearly-depicted fusing of organic and synthetic parts aren't a foreshadowing of Synthesis", you cry, then using nothing more than guesswork and speculation and no actual facts at all to support this conclusion.

Then you criticise others for not understanding and accepting your own naively-presented interpretation of Synthesis (which fails to acknowledge or address anything and everything negative presented about the idea within the Mass Effect series, because it couldn't possibly have dangerous implications), despite the fact that we're never actually told specifically what Synthesis entails.

TL;DR?  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  You have no valid argument, Wayning Star - only your own naive and introspective headcanon, and a whole lot of bluster.  You can desperately cling to that and use it to justify your decision all you want but it doesn't invalidate any of the questions and statements I've made in this topic.  It simply ignores them, and pretends they don't exist.

I like it when you argue your position, it reinforces mine..lol

Keep up the 'good work'..lol

[ziloe]

I wonder if Bioware has managed to get through all of this, lol.

[ziloe]

Keatstwo wrote...

We can only really go off what we're given in the epilogue and EDI is still clearly an individual - in fact more of an individual than ever. Everyone becoming partially synthetic would naturally involve communication between individuals beyond simply talking to one another but there's no need for this to mean we're all suddenly borg. I mean, we're all communicating right now in a virtual space via technology and we certainly don't agree on everything.

As for "peace" I think what's implied is that there will be no more threat of synthetics wiping out organics simply because synthetics are synthetics and organics are organics. People will still disagree and there will likely always be conflict on a smaller scale, but there will never be mass extinction brought about by gulfs of understanding between us.

EDI and the Geth can always be rebuilt, even in Destroy. But at least that way, we don't have to worry about the Reapers.

[mjh417]

Rifneno wrote...

I like this human, he understands!

Agreed:D. Seriously OP, you got it right, you passed the test. In this world and the world of fiction, which reflects our world, there are only two kinds of people, those who truly understand freedom, and thus demand it, and those who do not value freedom, either because they don't understand it, wheter they think they want/have it or not, or worse, those who see it as a threat to their power. Fiction I value is fiaction that exposes the constant threat to freedom we face, and features heroes who fight for it. Shepard was always that hero, but Bioware, unwise or wise, built their end with two out of the three (or four) choices as anti-freedom. Like most anti-freedom postions, they can be seductive to those whose eye's are not fully open, and give the impression of "good," "moral," "righteous," or at least "for the greater good," but really they are simply choices of anti-freedom. I mean one of them is called "CONTROL," if that doesnt tip you off, I don't know what can. Synthesis, however, is the seductive one. but make no mistake, it is as anti-freedom as Control, if not infinitely more so. Destroy may seem violent and amoral, but it is the only choice, aside from the far more violent and "refuse" option, that is pro-freedom.

[andy6915]

mjh417, I just read every statement in your sig, until it completely looped. Took longer then expected. Just thought you should know.

[DirtyPhoenix]

mjh417 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I like this human, he understands!

Agreed:D. Seriously OP, you got it right, you passed the test. In this world and the world of fiction, which reflects our world, there are only two kinds of people, those who truly understand freedom, and thus demand it, and those who do not value freedom, either because they don't understand it, wheter they think they want/have it or not, or worse, those who see it as a threat to their power. Fiction I value is fiaction that exposes the constant threat to freedom we face, and features heroes who fight for it. Shepard was always that hero, but Bioware, unwise or wise, built their end with two out of the three (or four) choices as anti-freedom. Like most anti-freedom postions, they can be seductive to those whose eye's are not fully open, and give the impression of "good," "moral," "righteous," or at least "for the greater good," but really they are simply choices of anti-freedom. I mean one of them is called "CONTROL," if that doesnt tip you off, I don't know what can. Synthesis, however, is the seductive one. but make no mistake, it is as anti-freedom as Control, if not infinitely more so. Destroy may seem violent and amoral, but it is the only choice, aside from the far more violent and "refuse" option, that is pro-freedom.

Okay..

[MattFini]

Synthesis is a damn creepshow.

And the EC makes it so much creepier.

[111987]

MattFini wrote...

Synthesis is a damn creepshow.

And the EC makes it so much creepier.

Synthesis is a Utopia.

The EC shows this. A very morally ambiguous choice, maybe even an immoral one, but the end result is apparently the best. Everyone is a superhuman, everything is rebuilt better than ever, the Reapers are our friends and share billions of years worth of knowledge with us, synthetics and organics get along...

[Magiking117]

111987 wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Synthesis is a damn creepshow.

And the EC makes it so much creepier.

Synthesis is a Utopia.

The EC shows this. A very morally ambiguous choice, maybe even an immoral one, but the end result is apparently the best. Everyone is a superhuman, everything is rebuilt better than ever, the Reapers are our friends and share billions of years worth of knowledge with us, synthetics and organics get along...

And, contrary to what some may think, it does not eradicate diversity or individuality.

Modifié par Magiking117, 11 janvier 2013 - 06:03 .

[tooducks58]

Seriously though, transhumanism as the ultimate fate of the galaxy; I thought it was inspired. Although actually chosing that route is a bit like what Hacket says about droping the nukes in WW2. Time of war, no choice.

The blue ending would bring the reapers under sheppards direct control (sort of) but it still leaves the reapers as a resource that someone could manipulate (attack citadle, take control). Destroy ending completely invalidates the Geth and EDI's struggle for equality and perpetuates the organic vs synthetic war.

Synthesis changes everything. Life beyond the singularity, and incidentally, no possibilty for a sequel. Come on KOTOME.

[111987]

Magiking117 wrote...

111987 wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Synthesis is a damn creepshow.

And the EC makes it so much creepier.

Synthesis is a Utopia.

The EC shows this. A very morally ambiguous choice, maybe even an immoral one, but the end result is apparently the best. Everyone is a superhuman, everything is rebuilt better than ever, the Reapers are our friends and share billions of years worth of knowledge with us, synthetics and organics get along...

And, contrary to what some may think, it does not eradicate diversity or individuality.

Exactly. Never understood that argument. It's pretty clear diversity and individuality are not lost.

[andy6915]

Got to admit, if the green ending didn't brainwash everyone and completely change their very mind and personality, I probably wouldn't mind as much. The main Megaman universe ended up being a lot like Synthesis by the time of the ZX and Legends series, with there being no real distinction between humans and reploids anymore, to the point of being able to breed together with no problems and with their children being perfectly normal and healthy. Heck, by Legends, the word reploid doesn't even exist anymore because the distinction has been so blurred that there is no difference anymore.

But the brainwashing? That ruins it.

[111987]

andy69156915 wrote...

Got to admit, if the green ending didn't brainwash everyone and completely change their very mind and personality, I probably wouldn't mind as much. The main Megaman universe ended up being a lot like Synthesis by the time of the ZX and Legends series, with there being no real distinction between humans and reploids anymore, to the point of being able to breed together with no problems and with their children being perfectly normal and healthy. Heck, by Legends, the word reploid doesn't even exist anymore because the distinction has been so blurred that there is no difference anymore.

But the brainwashing? That ruins it.

Where is it said minds and personalities are changed?

Nowhere, that's where.

[andy6915]

Oh, so "all machines are evil and the greatest threat my people every fought besides the Reapers was a race that became part synthetic" Javik is happy and smiling at becoming part synthetic. Oh, and war mongering and terrible Wreave becomes a peace loving smiling Krogan who completely drops any plans of attacking other races and decides revenge is unimportant after becoming synthesized. Seems legit.

Are you one of those people that needs every little detail spelled out for you to figure it out? Because Synthesis brainwashing is pretty obvious to anyone who looks at the facts and thinks about it for 5 seconds.

[111987]

andy69156915 wrote...

Oh, so "all machines are evil and the greatest threat my people every fought besides the Reapers was a race that became part synthetic" Javik is happy and smiling at becoming part synthetic. Oh, and war mongering and terrible Wreave becomes a peace loving smiling Krogan who completely drops any plans of attacking other races and decides revenge is unimportant after becoming synthesized. Seems legit.

Are you one of those people that needs every little detail spelled out for you to figure it out? Because Synthesis brainwashing is pretty obvious to anyone who looks at the facts and thinks about it for 5 seconds.

No need to be rude...

I've never seen the Javik slide but that can be attributed to him just finding peace after the war.

Wreav stops his war mongering ways in other endings as well. You have to check and see if those slides exist in other endings first. Not as simple as you make it out to be.

[andy6915]

No, Wreave does not. In fact, if Eve is alive, she actually makes her own Krogan army to oppose his, because stopping him through military action is the only thing that will stop his vengeance fueled war against the galaxy. Synthesis is the only ending that makes him become a peace loving butterflies and rainbows guy. And guess what? Brainwashing people to make them peaceful and nice is STILL BRAINWASHING. Regardless of what it brainwashes you to be like, it's still taking your free will and peeing on it.

[111987]

andy69156915 wrote...

No, Wreave does not. In fact, if Eve is alive, she actually makes her own Krogan army to oppose his, because stopping him through military action is the only thing that will stop his vengeance fueled war against the galaxy. Synthesis is the only ending that makes him become a peace loving butterflies and rainbows guy. And guess what? Brainwashing people to make them peaceful and nice is STILL BRAINWASHING. Regardless of what it brainwashes you to be like, it's still taking your free will and peeing on it.

That's not necesarrily why Wreav abandons his plans for war. It's ambiguous. It could be because he realizes that he could not take on a united galaxy, as in Synthesis. Or perhaps his upgrades allows him to gain new understandings, which is not brainwashing but educating. Or perhaps the presence of the Reapers on Tuchanka helping them rebuild is enough to stay his hand, because they make the Krogan great again (which is Wreav's ultimate goal anyways).

It's clear from EDI's speech, the memorial scene, and the slides of the other characters that their personalities and memories are unaltered. They still feel grief, they still can love, etc.

[andy6915]

New understanding wouldn't make the guy planning on killing and enslaving Salarians and possibly keeping them as prisoners for the sole purpose of farming and eating their eggs into a nice guy. Okay, we're talking about a complete monster who only cares about his own gain and power. Giving any kind of understanding to a being like him is just going to have him use that understanding to better conquer everyone else. The fact that he doesn't and instead becomes closer to Barny the Dinosaur then space Genghis khan is most telling.

Modifié par andy69156915, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:38 .

[111987]

andy69156915 wrote...

New understanding wouldn't make the guy planning on killing and enslaving Salarians and possibly keeping them as prisoners for the sole purpose of farming and eating their eggs into a nice guy. Okay, we're talking about a complete monster who only cares about his own gain and power. Giving any kind of understanding to a being like him is just going to have him use that understanding to better conquer everyone else. The fact that he doesn't and instead becomes closer to Barny the Dinosaur then space Genghis khan is most telling.

What are you talking about? The only thing we can glean from the slide is that Wreav is focusing on reconstruction rather than war. He even says in the caravan that as long as the galaxy thinks he wants war, etc...they will have the power he needs.

[andy6915]

...

I admit I can't find a source on the egg eating bit (I think I may have confused that clan speaker on Mordin's LM where he talks about locking up Salarians to eat their eggs), but about destroying the Salarians and Turians at one point? He's pretty clear about that about every time you talk to him. Have you ever actually had Wreave be the Krogan leader in ME3 before? It sounds like you haven't.

[111987]

andy69156915 wrote...

...

I admit I can't find a source on the egg eating bit (I think I may have confused that clan speaker on Mordin's LM where he talks about locking up Salarians to eat their eggs), but about destroying the Salarians and Turians at one point? He's pretty clear about that about every time you talk to him. Have you ever actually had Wreave be the Krogan leader in ME3 before? It sounds like you haven't.

I actually just finished a playthrough with Wreav as my leader. In my opinion, he talks a big game, but we'll see if he follows through with anything. Those scenes in the trucks really show the truth about Wreav, because noo-one is watching there.