1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

There'd be no need for war, for obvious reasons. There isn't any demanding freedom, as it's all you have in any event. There is no inodotrination or mini-curcuit bites, as it's not about injesting computer parts or forcing your will through advertisements/subliminal conditioning. You couldn't do that cause everyone would be 'wise' to it.(see:no war for obvious reasons.)

Existence, survival and tools are the mainstay, and the most logical reasonintg behind synthesis, all do to evolutionary changes over verrry long stretches of time.(See: Stargazer Scene.)

to metagame: Synthesis is canon, wether you like it or not, in the MEU. The only 'other' way out of it is to stop, completely, interfacing with alien computer sentience gone sapient intellect. They'll force the issue YOU started.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Wayning_Star wrote...

There'd be no need for war, for obvious reasons. There isn't any demanding freedom, as it's all you have in any event. There is no inodotrination or mini-curcuit bites, as it's not about injesting computer parts or forcing your will through advertisements/subliminal conditioning. You couldn't do that cause everyone would be 'wise' to it.(see:no war for obvious reasons.)

Existence, survival and tools are the mainstay, and the most logical reasonintg behind synthesis, all do to evolutionary changes over verrry long stretches of time.(See: Stargazer Scene.)

to metagame: Synthesis is canon, wether you like it or not, in the MEU. The only 'other' way out of it is to stop, completely, interfacing with alien computer sentience gone sapient intellect. They'll force the issue YOU started.

Of course there'd be no need for war. Everyone's mind has been altered to accept the Reapers. Its the only logical way to expain people like Javik being at peace with synthesis despite wanting to obliterate the reapers mere moments ago. If there's no demand for freedom then what do we have? Subjugation? 

You're confusing technology in general with a merging of man and machine. Im not exactly sure what you're trying to convey in your second paragraph. Perhaps you could elaborate? 

[Wayning_Star]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

There'd be no need for war, for obvious reasons. There isn't any demanding freedom, as it's all you have in any event. There is no inodotrination or mini-curcuit bites, as it's not about injesting computer parts or forcing your will through advertisements/subliminal conditioning. You couldn't do that cause everyone would be 'wise' to it.(see:no war for obvious reasons.)

Existence, survival and tools are the mainstay, and the most logical reasonintg behind synthesis, all do to evolutionary changes over verrry long stretches of time.(See: Stargazer Scene.)

to metagame: Synthesis is canon, wether you like it or not, in the MEU. The only 'other' way out of it is to stop, completely, interfacing with alien computer sentience gone sapient intellect. They'll force the issue YOU started.

Of course there'd be no need for war. Everyone's mind has been altered to accept the Reapers. Its the only logical way to expain people like Javik being at peace with synthesis despite wanting to obliterate the reapers mere moments ago. If there's no demand for freedom then what do we have? Subjugation? 

You're confusing technology in general with a merging of man and machine. Im not exactly sure what you're trying to convey in your second paragraph. Perhaps you could elaborate? 

Accept the reapers? They don't exist. They're just constructs of the underlying problem, not the nemisis. Organics created them..don't you see that? Organic intellect will always refer to tools to advance, instead of within, they strive to exist with 'help'. That help decides otherwise, hense the reapers.

Javik needs to find peace with himself. His culture is long gone, but the spirit of it remains within reaper hulls, even if not harvested, those that knew them intimatly still reside there, in intellect. That's what makes reaperships so, oppressive. That inellect is driven mad by it's captivity, it must be released, not by death, but by rebirth,even if uncanny, their situation calls for extreme measures.

I'm not confusing 'fusing' with interaction, thats where folks claim that post toasties is a boot sequence.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Javik has every right to want vengeance. Those mere constructs as you call them destroyed his entire civilization and mutated any of it that remained. Those constructs are very much alive and are very much a problem. They say as much themselves.

This concept you're talking about in your second paragraph does not fit with the story. Theres no saving those who've been reduced to paste and preserved inside a reaper. There is no releasing of their spirits to save them. You want to free them? Then end their suffering by destroy them.

[guacamayus]

What some people fail to understand is that synthesis offers the typical conclussion on which the bad guy wasn't fully wrong, its initial solution to the problem is inhumane and horrible. The point of the story is that you reach a compromise with the enemy because their methods were completely unaceptable while their motives are a real concern; "salvation through destruction"
Wether you agree or not you are given several options to reflect your opinion on the matter, I don't see the need to keep posting threads about a subject that happens to be a matter of opinion.
Statements about everyone losing identity or mind control over them or whatever crap you can think of it's just head cannon, parading this as truth destroys any serious discussion you would have otherwise.

Modifié par guacamayus, 12 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .

[Wayning_Star]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Javik has every right to want vengeance. Those mere constructs as you call them destroyed his entire civilization and mutated any of it that remained. Those constructs are very much alive and are very much a problem. They say as much themselves.

This concept you're talking about in your second paragraph does not fit with the story. Theres no saving those who've been reduced to paste and preserved inside a reaper. There is no releasing of their spirits to save them. You want to free them? Then end their suffering by destroy them.

vengeance digs two graves. Those constructs are thralls, unwitting pawns in some 'end game'.



We cannot save that which was, apparently 'put' there by someone else? They do exist, seperate from the reapership they're imprisoned in. Their 'essence', the same one supposedly available for Shep to make choices, is there, within the reapers hull. Their DNA exists to provide for an eventual reconstruction, undo that what the catalyst wrought. A true form of 'revenge'. To partially fix that what the catalyst creators had broken.

No, I cannot destroy them. IF there is a good chance of saving them...and Javik for that matter, from himself. The paragon tries to end them, release them from life and it's canon, the renegade in me says, too bad, more where that came from.. have fun...live again.

[ziloe]

guacamayus wrote...

What some people fail to understand is that synthesis offers the typical conclussion on which the bad guy wasn't fully wrong, its initial solution to the problem is inhumane and horrible. The point of the story is that you reach a compromise with the enemy because their methods were completely unaceptable while their motives are a real concern; "salvation through destruction"
Wether you agree or not you are given several options to reflect your opinion on the matter, I don't see the need to keep posting threads about a subject that happens to be a matter of opinion.
Statements about everyone losing identity or mind control over them or whatever crap you can think of it's just head cannon, parading this as truth destroys any serious discussion you would have otherwise.

And yet, with Synthesis, the most powereful beings in the universe, now are both still alive, and have freewill.

[cyrexwingblade]

Free will is the source of conflict which is the source of war. Unless Synthesis changes everyone's personality to be inherently cooperative and unselfish, you're not changing anything about cultures/wars.

Now everyone being synaptically connected will definitely make that disconcerting. If everyone is networked, then you'll likely get a mass response of self-isolation just to try and get away from the 'others'.

Eventually this will wear down, and you'll end up with Reapers again. Conglomerate entities who... are.

It's not really a desirable existence.

And if everyone is NOT mentally networked, then repeat the first point. War is still just as likely and prevalent, it just won't be because of 'robot/not robot'. Humanity hasn't had a real war based on *that* problem *yet*.

[guacamayus]

And how is that a problem? the Catalyst found what it was looking for, it is not needed anymore. It's existance is both irrelevant and something to expect since it represents the reaper hive mind, reapers alive = catalayst alive. Synthesis is supposed to change its perspective on things because as I've mentioned earlier there's no problem between synthetics and organics to solve anymore.

[cyrexwingblade]

Indeed, the catalyst's goal is achieved in Synthesis. He's plot-neutered into contentment, and no longer matters as an issue.

I just wouldn't want to live in the world Synthesis makes.

[GethPrimeMKII]

guacamayus wrote...

And how is that a problem? the Catalyst found what it was looking for, it is not needed anymore. It's existance is both irrelevant and something to expect since it represents the reaper hive mind, reapers alive = catalayst alive. Synthesis is supposed to change its perspective on things because as I've mentioned earlier there's no problem between synthetics and organics to solve anymore.

There was never a problem between synthetics and organics to begin with. All known synthetics within the MEU existed along side organics just fine until Reapers intervened. That's a fact. One of the problems with synthesis is ou are needlessly sacrificing yourself to solve a problem that has never existed and forcing a genetic overhaul the galaxy never asked for.

[guacamayus]

How can you say there never was a problem with synthetics? Let's use Geth as an exmaple;

-the morning war
-the fact the retreated beyond the veil on total isolation
-they were building a dysons's bubble
-the only way to make peace is through the reaper code upgrade which Legions acquieres, proving that without superior technology the war would've been on until one side exterminates the other.

If anything all the events of ME3 are proof of the Catalyst's prediction; EDI talks about making decisions on a vacuum, that's what the Geth were doing when they isolated themselves.
The Catalyst talks about synthetic's technological superiority, this is proven when Legion talks about their dyson bubble (300 hundred years were enough for them to nearly surpass organics), he also calls whatever may come afterwards "unpredictable".

I'm not saying synthesis must be the only and best solution but claiming there was no problem to begin with... I can't understand how you don't consider this events a problem.

Modifié par guacamayus, 12 janvier 2013 - 11:03 .

[Eryri]

guacamayus wrote...

How can you say there never was a problem with synthetics? Let's use Geth as an exmaple;

-the morning war
-the fact the retreated beyond the veil on total isolation
-they were building a dysons's bubble
-the only way to make peace is through the reaper code upgrade which Legions acquieres, proving that without superior technology the war would've been on until one side exterminates the other.

If anything all the events of ME3 are proof of the Catalyst's prediction; EDI talks about making decisions on a vacuum, that's what the Geth were doing when they isolated themselves.
The Catalyst talks about synthetic's technological superiority, this is proven when Legion talks about their dyson bubble (300 hundred years were enough for them to nearly surpass organics), he also calls whatever may come afterwards "unpredictable".

I'm not saying synthesis must be the only and best solution but claiming there was no problem to begin with... I can't understand how you don't consider this events a problem.

Because the Geth were not the agressors in that conflict. It was the Quarians who drew first blood (or hydraulic fluid in the Geth's case) by panicking when the first Geth became self aware and starting their pogrom. A policy which backfired when the Geth proved adept at defending themselves.

Even once the Geth had won the Morning War, they chose not to persue the Quarians once they had liberated themselves, as they did not wish to exterminate their creators. Legion shows us this in the Geth Concensus mission. The Geth were quite content to be left alone, they merely wished for self-determination. They had no interest in wiping out organics.

It was the Reapers who stirred up that conflict again; firstly by Sovereign seducing the Heretics (who were a minority of the Geth) in Me1. Then in ME3, after the Quarians had gained the upper hand and were close to victory, the Reapers took advantage of the Geth's vulnerability and fear by offering them a Faustian bargain. Without the Reaper's intervention, the Geth would not have been a threat to the Quarians or anyone else.

[guacamayus]

Yes you are right however that is totally irrelevant to my point because this conlifict arises from both organics and synthetics, the geth reacted this way but the quarians did not. They chose agression to regain their status as masters, proving that conflict is a real concern and not something you can simply dismiss this easily.

[Eryri]

However, Synthesis as presented would not have prevented that conflict. The Catalyst says that "Synthetics will gain full understanding of organics". But the Geth were not the ones lacking understanding. On the contrary they seemed far more peaceable and enlightened than the Quarians, or at least those among them who were persecuting the Geth.
Conversely, I don't personally see how giving the Quarians cybernetic upgrades would have made them behave more kindly towards their former slaves.

Modifié par Eryri, 12 janvier 2013 - 11:35 .

[GHNR]

Eryri wrote...

However, synthesis as presented would not have prevented that conflict. The Catalyst says that "Synthetics will gain full understanding of organics". But it was not the Geth who were the ones lacking understanding. On the contrary they seemed far more peaceable and enlightened than the Quarians, or at least those among them persecuting the Geth.
Conversely, I don't personally see how giving the Quarians cybernetic upgrades would have made them behave more kindly to their former slaves.

For your synthetic comments, I would say that the geth, though as you say peaceful, lacked the understanding as to why the quarians turned against them.

As for the quarians, no, synthetic upgrades would not prevent them from acting more kindly to the geth. The geth's aid in retaking their homeworld would do that. The upgrades are simply to better themselves, and conversely, stop the need for them creating artificial labor, or any other tasks the quarians themselves could not do.

Modifié par GHNR, 12 janvier 2013 - 11:37 .

[guacamayus]

Eryri wrote...

However, Synthesis as presented would not have prevented that conflict. The Catalyst says that "Synthetics will gain full understanding of organics". But the Geth were not the ones lacking understanding. On the contrary they seemed far more peaceable and enlightened than the Quarians, or at least those among them who were persecuting the Geth.
Conversely, I don't personally see how giving the Quarians cybernetic upgrades would have made them behave more kindly towards their former slaves.

That is a valid concern, but let's not forget the Geth are not totally innocent here. The end result of the morning war is a very intimidating percentage, if I recall correctly near 90% of quarians were wiped out.

Agressor or victim this is a very crude way to end a war, their inability to understand the quarian's fear led them to this. Most of the quarians reacted as we would today, frightened by something unkown, desperately trying to contain the situation.
Their actions are wrong but they are not motivated by an "evil lust for control" or a desire to end the enemy on the Geth's part but for an inability to understand eachothers motives.

Modifié par guacamayus, 12 janvier 2013 - 11:38 .

[Eryri]

GHNR wrote...

For your synthetic comments, I would say that the geth, though as you say peaceful, lacked the understanding as to why the quarians turned against them.

We will have to agree to disagree here. I don't think we can blame the Geth for not understanding why the innocent question "Does this unit have a soul?" would so frighten their creators that they would go on an insanely destructive killing spree. And even if they did understand why they were being killed, I doubt that knowledge would have helped them.

The upgrades are simply to better themselves, and conversely, stop the need for them creating artificial labor, or any other tasks the quarians themselves could not do.

You've raised another point which I find interesting about the post synthesis universe. The Geth were created as servants. It was not so much that the Quarians were unable to do the tasks that they gave to the Geth. More that that were simply unwilling. The Geth did the tedious or dangerous jobs that the Quarians didn't want.

However, in the post synthesis universe, someone will still need to do the mucky, boring jobs, like mine Eezo, or dig drains and so on. Except that now that synthetics are fully sentient, they're no more likely to enjoy doing them than organics were.

Will the post synthesis society create more synthetics, with lower self awareness, to do these menial jobs? What will happen if they start to evolve like the Geth and decide they'd like something more out of life?

Modifié par Eryri, 13 janvier 2013 - 12:02 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

guacamayus wrote...

How can you say there never was a problem with synthetics? Let's use Geth as an exmaple;

-the morning war
-the fact the retreated beyond the veil on total isolation
-they were building a dysons's bubble
-the only way to make peace is through the reaper code upgrade which Legions acquieres, proving that without superior technology the war would've been on until one side exterminates the other.

If anything all the events of ME3 are proof of the Catalyst's prediction; EDI talks about making decisions on a vacuum, that's what the Geth were doing when they isolated themselves.
The Catalyst talks about synthetic's technological superiority, this is proven when Legion talks about their dyson bubble (300 hundred years were enough for them to nearly surpass organics), he also calls whatever may come afterwards "unpredictable".

I'm not saying synthesis must be the only and best solution but claiming there was no problem to begin with... I can't understand how you don't consider this events a problem.

The morning war started because our brilliant friends, the quarians, decided the geth deserved genocide as a reward for gaining sentience. The quarians were clearly at fault.

Retreating beyond the veil was a precaution. They wished not to interfere with organics further and they wished not to be interfered with by organics. The universe already resented the idea of AI's before their creation. Isolation was the wisest course of action. 

The dyson bubble was an attempt to create one central location for all geth conciousnesses. What did you think it was, some kind of weapon? You remember that before legion's upgrade the geths' intelligence depended on how many minds were linked. I guarantee if human minds worked anything like the geths' we'd hatch a similar plan.

The quarian vs geth war only proved how stupid and stubborn most quarians were. The geth strongly desire peace with quarians and other organics. Legion mentions this numerous times. 

The events of ME3 prove the catalyst wrong 1000 times over. The only instances of synthetics attacking organics were ALL due to organic aggression or Reaper interference.

[guacamayus]

Of course the dyson bubble was a way to combine their minds, that's the point of it, the Geth were close to the singularity and it only took them 300 years to achieve this.

Agression, from organics or synthetics is the problem. The Geth's reaction was to free themselves, the Quarians ****ted their pants at the thought and reacted stupidly.
The Geth reacted to this by nearly killing all Quarians, they were unable to understand their fears as the quarians were unable to understand the geth gained true sentience and should be viewed as a form of life because of it.
That's the problem the catalyst is talking about, we cannot understand eachother so the outcome is war, a war synthetics are probably going to win because of their ability to evolve faster than us.

[Eryri]

guacamayus wrote...

That's the problem the catalyst is talking about, we cannot understand eachother so the outcome is war, a war synthetics are probably going to win because of their ability to evolve faster than us.

But we can understand each other. Even as far back as ME2, Shepard could sucessfully get Legion and Tali to accept each other as colleagues, if not yet friends.

Then on Rannoch, Shepard manages to do the same for the entire Geth and Quarian races. All accomplished with nothing more than hard work and a little empathy (and some Reaper code admittedly, but I find that aspect rather silly as it includes Legion dying for no sensible reason, other than to add some pathos to the scene). Synthesis is unecessary. We don't need a wave of green light to magically force us to get along. I find the idea that we do; quite cynical, pessimistic and misanthropic.

Modifié par Eryri, 13 janvier 2013 - 12:34 .

[guacamayus]

Shepard got Tali and Legion to cooperate for the good of the mission, it is not the same as understanding eachother; they had a common goal and had to work together above all else or risk failure.

During Rannoch there are a number of factors which could affect this, a reaper invasion for example, the existance of a very advanced piece of reaper code, the fact that we don't really know if the peace will last or how 1 case is not enough proof to assume peace is always possible.

Using another machine as an example, the Catalyst. This machine probably is the most advanced one ever, despite this it lacks the understanding to diferentiate between preserving life and destroying/storing as bits, it can't fully understand how we think, even after all those cycles of gathering info.

[ziloe]

guacamayus wrote...

Shepard got Tali and Legion to cooperate for the good of the mission, it is not the same as understanding eachother; they had a common goal and had to work together above all else or risk failure.

During Rannoch there are a number of factors which could affect this, a reaper invasion for example, the existance of a very advanced piece of reaper code, the fact that we don't really know if the peace will last or how 1 case is not enough proof to assume peace is always possible.

Using another machine as an example, the Catalyst. This machine probably is the most advanced one ever, despite this it lacks the understanding to diferentiate between preserving life and destroying/storing as bits, it can't fully understand how we think, even after all those cycles of gathering info.

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

[111987]

ziloe wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

Shepard got Tali and Legion to cooperate for the good of the mission, it is not the same as understanding eachother; they had a common goal and had to work together above all else or risk failure.

During Rannoch there are a number of factors which could affect this, a reaper invasion for example, the existance of a very advanced piece of reaper code, the fact that we don't really know if the peace will last or how 1 case is not enough proof to assume peace is always possible.

Using another machine as an example, the Catalyst. This machine probably is the most advanced one ever, despite this it lacks the understanding to diferentiate between preserving life and destroying/storing as bits, it can't fully understand how we think, even after all those cycles of gathering info.

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

The Catalyst however studied the problem for years and has a plethora of data supporting its conclusion. The situation Rannoch could be seen as an outlier. Not to mention, who knows how long the peace will last, right?

[ziloe]

111987 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

Shepard got Tali and Legion to cooperate for the good of the mission, it is not the same as understanding eachother; they had a common goal and had to work together above all else or risk failure.

During Rannoch there are a number of factors which could affect this, a reaper invasion for example, the existance of a very advanced piece of reaper code, the fact that we don't really know if the peace will last or how 1 case is not enough proof to assume peace is always possible.

Using another machine as an example, the Catalyst. This machine probably is the most advanced one ever, despite this it lacks the understanding to diferentiate between preserving life and destroying/storing as bits, it can't fully understand how we think, even after all those cycles of gathering info.

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

The Catalyst however studied the problem for years and has a plethora of data supporting its conclusion. The situation Rannoch could be seen as an outlier. Not to mention, who knows how long the peace will last, right?

If that's the argument, the same can be said for the Reapers who are now granted freewill, if you choose Synthesis. Maybe they're not ALL evil, but who's to say those collected in the past, weren't similar to the Batarians, etc. And if that's the case, who's to say how long it will be until the most powerful creature in the universe, chooses to attack someone, or rallies for another war.

Modifié par ziloe, 13 janvier 2013 - 11:32 .