1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

The Catalyst however studied the problem for years and has a plethora of data supporting its conclusion. The situation Rannoch could be seen as an outlier. Not to mention, who knows how long the peace will last, right?

He speaks in absolutes. Any outlier disproves the argument. He also  believes organic extinction and synthesis are simultaneously inevitable.

[Linkforlife]

[ziloe]

Linkforlife wrote...

Looks about right.

[Indy_S]

That husk looks perfectly happy and not at all like it might freak out at any point and kill everybody in the vicinity.

[Reorte]

111987 wrote...

The Catalyst however studied the problem for years and has a plethora of data supporting its conclusion. The situation Rannoch could be seen as an outlier. Not to mention, who knows how long the peace will last, right?

"Appeal to authority" is usually a logical fallacy, particularly when the authority does nothing to demonstrate that it actually is one. If it's got data it presents none of it and its claims are far-fetched to say the least.

Oddly enough fiction has less room for manoeuvre than realtiy does there - in reality sometimes far-fetched things happen but it's pushing your luck as a writer to stick them in fiction and expect the audience to swallow them, particularly if such facts are massive world-impacting ones. If I was to set a story in the future and a character in it claims that everyone on Earth stopped fighting in March 2013 and no-one deliberately ever hurt anyone again after that I'd say the character is an idiot, even if he claims to have a thousand years of evidence for that that he won't show me. If he shows me the evidence then I'd say that I'm the idiot as a writer for chucking in something so implausible.

Sure, the peace might not last, same as the peace between any organic species not fighting each other, or any countres in the world today who aren't fighting (Britain and France spent the best part of a whole millenia, on and off, fighting but don't look like doing so today but better take precautions against each other because the peace might not last...)

[GethPrimeMKII]

ziloe wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

Shepard got Tali and Legion to cooperate for the good of the mission, it is not the same as understanding eachother; they had a common goal and had to work together above all else or risk failure.

During Rannoch there are a number of factors which could affect this, a reaper invasion for example, the existance of a very advanced piece of reaper code, the fact that we don't really know if the peace will last or how 1 case is not enough proof to assume peace is always possible.

Using another machine as an example, the Catalyst. This machine probably is the most advanced one ever, despite this it lacks the understanding to diferentiate between preserving life and destroying/storing as bits, it can't fully understand how we think, even after all those cycles of gathering info.

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

Believe me they are fully aware of this. The question is: Are the players aware of this? The final decision is a test to see just how much players payed attention to the themes present in the game. Will the players pass the test, or will they commit suicide, at th request of the enemy's leader, to solve a problem the plot tells you does not exist?

[Reorte]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

ziloe wrote...

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

Believe me they are fully aware of this. The question is: Are the players aware of this? The final decision is a test to see just how much players payed attention to the themes present in the game. Will the players pass the test, or will they commit suicide, at th request of the enemy's leader, to solve a problem the plot tells you does not exist?

The alternative to committing suicide at your enemy's request is to say "Too bad you're getting along, one of you is dying anyway."

[GethPrimeMKII]

Reorte wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

ziloe wrote...

After Rannoch, if you made peace with both parties, there already was peace. Heck, they were helping eachother. The catalyst was wrong, pure and simple. It's just unfortunate that Bioware didn't realize this earlier, that is, if they have at all.

Believe me they are fully aware of this. The question is: Are the players aware of this? The final decision is a test to see just how much players payed attention to the themes present in the game. Will the players pass the test, or will they commit suicide, at th request of the enemy's leader, to solve a problem the plot tells you does not exist?

The alternative to committing suicide at your enemy's request is to say "Too bad you're getting along, one of you is dying anyway."

No, the alternative is: Destroying the Reapers no matter the cost. The geth are willing to fight and die to stop the Reapers. Listen to the words of your friends and squadmates. They all support destroying the Reapers. They all support victory through sacrifice. 

The final decision, whether you believe in IT or literal, is a test. You came in here with the goal of destroying the Reapers. Playes paying close attention to the themes present in game will tell them the corret answer. You're given plenty of warning within the trilogy against both control and synthesis. If you want examples I can list plenty.

[Saito404]

[Dragoonlordz]

Don't like it? Don't pick it. Problem solved.

[Applepie_Svk]

31 pages we could sums like that synthesis is piece of junk which fart out of nowhere and it has to be some kind of best solution which we all should want coz glow one said so... glow one whích redefine Machiavelli´s means justify the end if  the space magic is involved...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 13 janvier 2013 - 03:19 .

[Wayning_Star]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

31 pages we could sums like that synthesis is piece of junk which fart out of nowhere and it has to be some kind of best solution which we all should want coz glow one said so... glow one whích redefine Machiavelli´s means justify the end if  the space magic is involved...

OR, folks just want to delude themselves into a canon that fits their agenda,not the predicament of the MEU. A testiment to a failure of immersion, or a refuse of such.

Fans tends to exclude reality IN the MEU for the reality they can commit to, for what ever reason. The ABC's of the choices menue and the inferences of IT, qualify these statements.

There is NO wiggle room, there really is only two actual choices.

Completely Destroy the MEU/technological assests that combinate to qualify it as the MEU(advanced tech/deep space aquistion,resources and nifty tools of the synthetic varitity and many others/reapertech)

The other is to become that technology, in organic form. That is the function of the catalyst, but not its intended purpose. Adapt, or as it's proposed, evolve 'with' technology through apparent co dependend evolution. NO different than learning what it means to understand your position IN that universe YOU createed.

You did it, either live WITH it, or live without it... Organics would choose to live with it, as opposed to living without it, as the MEU is created via that very process. The process of organic intellect and it's forebarant component parts. You're actually being synthesised as you type, either you know that or.. you don't. Doesn't matter really. It's just the way you think.


Note: Being, of course you can immerse your self in some dreamstate, forego the obvious and rely on self deception to alter the reality you face, force the situation, or really just another 'illusion' of some IT. But,thats just metagaming, and really just reflects the depths of your current synthesis in real time..lol

[GethPrimeMKII]

Wayning. Im not trying to be mean, but can you explain your last statement? I didnt understand anything you just said.

[Wayning_Star]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Wayning. Im not trying to be mean, but can you explain your last statement? I didnt understand anything you just said.

I just don't like the idea of folks 'falling' into that black hole IT gig.. It's a scam cheap thrill. imho.

too simple and quite 'illusive'. The IT describes indoctrination...in real time.. blanketing out the 'gist' if any, from the acutal sci fi story and associated benefit. Now they got the idea going that 'destruction' would actually work in the MEU, long term. The only way that'd work is that ALL, as in every molecule, of reaper tech will have to cease to exsist, as it's corrupted with 'life giving' properties. Hense the intelligence, brought forth through the organic Leviathan.

I've heard that human survival instincts are such that many, if not most would accept anything than face extinction. Add that to the MEU equation, what whould Shep do to 'survive'? (survive meaning, promote it for humanity as well as other interested parties?) Shep would have to consider "life" without technology as a problematical incidence within the choices menu. The destroy choice only infers the destruction of current reaperhips, the Geth and Edi, or any synthetic wrought from Leviathan tech, but not all technology. The MEU is that technology, so its a given that this choice is just more of the same. But for the time being, a few could assume that reapers would be gone,but their legacy would continue and the Leviathan could and probably would be pressed to create another intelligence from that technology. The cycle wouldn't stop, as it were, only be deferred to other parties.

So the two choices. Total destruction, or synthesis to adapt to the MEU.

To put it simply, the Mass Effect(ed) Universe... IS the problem. Life either accepts it, or rejects the MEU.. as it is.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 13 janvier 2013 - 06:00 .

[ziloe]

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

[Wayning_Star]

ziloe wrote...

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

actually, bioware writers didn't 'choose' , those were merely thrown out for fans to go nuts on. Really tho, it's just a matter of occams razor, not bad writing. We cannot 'blame' writers for us not being able to figure out the answers to a universe..

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 13 janvier 2013 - 06:31 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Wayning_Star wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Wayning. Im not trying to be mean, but can you explain your last statement? I didnt understand anything you just said.

I just don't like the idea of folks 'falling' into that black hole IT gig.. It's a scam cheap thrill. imho.

Synthesis is the bigger issue here...

[Boydsan]

I posted something similar recently... but here you go...
According to the Catalyst:

CATALYST: Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding.

(The Catalyst who was constructed "countless" cycles ago believes the above statement to be true. The Catalyst may have been around before our star was born, but is it true?)

Is it not true we build better computer, better and more advance cars, start putting synthetic parts in our bodies to help keep life - and in Mass Effect's universe to enhance life (Biotic humans have biotic IMPLANTS in them)?

If you think about it, the Geth seek to increase their processing power (upgraded network, Dyson sphere, etc.) and EDI tries to understand organics. The main synthetics in THIS game support this statement. They look for emotional and mental advancement, if that makes sense. The understanding is the end in and of itself.

The organics support for this statement is based on our current life and the ME Universe. We need to only look at space technology, money, politics, and our current society to see that organics have structured themselves such that technology, which allows them to make better use of their finite lifespans, is what they seek. Do we not want to make better computers? Use better cell phones? Transplant defective organs with artificial or synthetic ones? Sure, there are some people who do not - but they are the minority and not the majority in our current society.

For those that don't want to "force" it upon anyone, then....do not.

Note that the Catalyst did not even know that it was possible before the Crucible merged with it. Now that it is, by the way Bioware has written the Mass Effect universe, it follows that it is the natural destination to the evolutionary paths organics and synthetics are on, because it is what they inherently seek. Ultimately speaking the Mass Effect Universe is fiction, make believe, anything can happen - even the desires of beings we do not understand.

The inevitability of synthesis is not something the Catalyst is making up, nor it is something passed down to it by its Creators in form of a directive. It is a simple statement about the fictional universe of Mass Effect. Both organics and synthetics will seek their own “perfections”. We see hints of synthesis with implants (biotic or otherwise) in organics and with the Dyson sphere with the Geth for synthetics (to increase understanding). It may take time, but assuming nobody kills themselves along the way, the path will steadily lead there.

Synthesis does not make everything the same and spit in the face of diversity. Just as “organics” doesn’t imply homogeneity (human, krogan, turian, asari, etc.) and “synthetics” doesn’t imply that either (Geth, EDI, Zha’til), it just puts the two under the same “umbrella”. Humans are still humans and krogans are still krogans. The only difference is that they have synthetic implants. Synthetics are still the same, but they finally understand organics and the “finer” things in life that they so desperately wanted to know about, such as love.

Synthesis embraces diversity by promoting understanding. It serves as a (pardon the pun) catalyst for peace. Ironically, it finally gives the Catalyst a way to live up to its true purpose and name in a twisted manner, though that should not deter you from picking synthesis if you want.

Synthesis does not create eternal peace. It creates the MEANS for eternal peace (not the guarentee), and the extended cut builds upon this by showing that those dreams are realized. It does not create peace in and of itself. The Crucible does not create peace. The Catalyst does not. Even Shepard cannot.

Peace comes from everyone else. It is a conscious, collective effort by which people need to WANT it and work towards it. Synthesis gives the level of understanding without which people cannot exist without conflict, big or small.

This is why the Catalyst favors it. Its creators gave it an impossible problem, and it came up with an imperfect solution, given the parameters of the situation. The impossible problem, under new parameters, becomes possible to solve. Synthesis is the first step of that.

Synthesis, ideally, helps Shepard (“organics seek perfection through…”) and the Catalyst (step forward to solving the impossible problem). It is indeed the green ending that was hoped for, and, given the Mass Effect universe’s themes, I believe the philosophies flow smoothly. It is indeed a very fitting ending, and I can understand why it was considered the “best” one – it helps pretty much all parties involved.

Or does it?

[Wayning_Star]

Boydsan wrote...

I posted something similar recently... but here you go...
According to the Catalyst:

CATALYST: Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding.

(The Catalyst who was constructed "countless" cycles ago believes the above statement to be true. The Catalyst may have been around before our star was born, but is it true?)

Is it not true we build better computer, better and more advance cars, start putting synthetic parts in our bodies to help keep life - and in Mass Effect's universe to enhance life (Biotic humans have biotic IMPLANTS in them)?

If you think about it, the Geth seek to increase their processing power (upgraded network, Dyson sphere, etc.) and EDI tries to understand organics. The main synthetics in THIS game support this statement. They look for emotional and mental advancement, if that makes sense. The understanding is the end in and of itself.

The organics support for this statement is based on our current life and the ME Universe. We need to only look at space technology, money, politics, and our current society to see that organics have structured themselves such that technology, which allows them to make better use of their finite lifespans, is what they seek. Do we not want to make better computers? Use better cell phones? Transplant defective organs with artificial or synthetic ones? Sure, there are some people who do not - but they are the minority and not the majority in our current society.

For those that don't want to "force" it upon anyone, then....do not.

Note that the Catalyst did not even know that it was possible before the Crucible merged with it. Now that it is, by the way Bioware has written the Mass Effect universe, it follows that it is the natural destination to the evolutionary paths organics and synthetics are on, because it is what they inherently seek. Ultimately speaking the Mass Effect Universe is fiction, make believe, anything can happen - even the desires of beings we do not understand.

The inevitability of synthesis is not something the Catalyst is making up, nor it is something passed down to it by its Creators in form of a directive. It is a simple statement about the fictional universe of Mass Effect. Both organics and synthetics will seek their own “perfections”. We see hints of synthesis with implants (biotic or otherwise) in organics and with the Dyson sphere with the Geth for synthetics (to increase understanding). It may take time, but assuming nobody kills themselves along the way, the path will steadily lead there.

Synthesis does not make everything the same and spit in the face of diversity. Just as “organics” doesn’t imply homogeneity (human, krogan, turian, asari, etc.) and “synthetics” doesn’t imply that either (Geth, EDI, Zha’til), it just puts the two under the same “umbrella”. Humans are still humans and krogans are still krogans. The only difference is that they have synthetic implants. Synthetics are still the same, but they finally understand organics and the “finer” things in life that they so desperately wanted to know about, such as love.

Synthesis embraces diversity by promoting understanding. It serves as a (pardon the pun) catalyst for peace. Ironically, it finally gives the Catalyst a way to live up to its true purpose and name in a twisted manner, though that should not deter you from picking synthesis if you want.

Synthesis does not create eternal peace. It creates the MEANS for eternal peace (not the guarentee), and the extended cut builds upon this by showing that those dreams are realized. It does not create peace in and of itself. The Crucible does not create peace. The Catalyst does not. Even Shepard cannot.

Peace comes from everyone else. It is a conscious, collective effort by which people need to WANT it and work towards it. Synthesis gives the level of understanding without which people cannot exist without conflict, big or small.

This is why the Catalyst favors it. Its creators gave it an impossible problem, and it came up with an imperfect solution, given the parameters of the situation. The impossible problem, under new parameters, becomes possible to solve. Synthesis is the first step of that.

Synthesis, ideally, helps Shepard (“organics seek perfection through…”) and the Catalyst (step forward to solving the impossible problem). It is indeed the green ending that was hoped for, and, given the Mass Effect universe’s themes, I believe the philosophies flow smoothly. It is indeed a very fitting ending, and I can understand why it was considered the “best” one – it helps pretty much all parties involved.

Or does it?

the tell in your post is "organics seeks perfection through". That's not the case as organics seeks to survive and Shep gets saddled with choices that don't include 'perfection' in any definition of the word. You shouldn't put Reaper small talks into a post, as they make it sound like a reaper talking.. OR does it? lol

The impossible problem is can organics exist in the MEU without technology of any kind. Travel mass parsecs of space, snark up on mass quanties of resources, the ones needed to comprise that known universe. IF they do need the tech, then they're stuck with the drawbacks of that technology. Also,they're stuck with competing with the Leviathan for apexness as well. Good luck with that..

The problem is just organics tool making qualities. Synthesis merely represents the intellectual cooperation between the apparent tools gone sentient. Un willing as thralls, unless completed as equals, of a sort. There is NO perfection.

[HiddenInWar]

Linkforlife wrote...

"Hot tubs will sooth those pesky synthetic implants!"

[Wayning_Star]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Linkforlife wrote...

"Hot tubs will sooth those pesky synthetic implants!"

too bad Shep isn't in the water with other folks getting soothed,eh?

[GethPrimeMKII]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ziloe wrote...

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

actually, bioware writers didn't 'choose' , those were merely thrown out for fans to go nuts on. Really tho, it's just a matter of occams razor, not bad writing. We cannot 'blame' writers for us not being able to figure out the answers to a universe..

If I had a dime everytime Occam's Razor was mentioned on BSN by people who don't understand what it means......

[ElSuperGecko]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

ziloe wrote...

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

actually, bioware writers didn't 'choose' , those were merely thrown out for fans to go nuts on. Really tho, it's just a matter of occams razor, not bad writing. We cannot 'blame' writers for us not being able to figure out the answers to a universe..

If I had a dime everytime Occam's Razor was mentioned on BSN by people who don't understand what it means.....

Indeed.  Even if we accept Occam's Razor as a valid tool for interpreting a work of fiction, then Occam's Razor would most likely agree with the entire premise of this thread.

[ziloe]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ziloe wrote...

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

actually, bioware writers didn't 'choose' , those were merely thrown out for fans to go nuts on. Really tho, it's just a matter of occams razor, not bad writing. We cannot 'blame' writers for us not being able to figure out the answers to a universe..

No, no. As a writer myself, I'm pretty sure I can blame them. I mean really, before the EC, when Bioware employees played through the game, apparently not one of them saw any issue with the endings.

Modifié par ziloe, 14 janvier 2013 - 05:58 .

[RiouHotaru]

ziloe wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

ziloe wrote...

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

actually, bioware writers didn't 'choose' , those were merely thrown out for fans to go nuts on. Really tho, it's just a matter of occams razor, not bad writing. We cannot 'blame' writers for us not being able to figure out the answers to a universe..

No, no. As a writer myself, I'm pretty sure I can blame them. I mean really, before the EC, when Bioware employees played through the game, apparently not one of them saw any issue with the endings.

To be honest, in retrospect, I don't see the issue anymore either.  A lot of the stuff added in the EC was just to soothe fans who had these doom-saying ideas of what they think happened, which the EC showed was, indeed, NOT the case:

- The galaxy wasn't doomed and people didn't starve to death
- Joker wasn't being a coward/traitor
- The Normandy isn't stuck on it's wayward planet
- Etc, etc.