1009 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

RiouHotaru wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

ziloe wrote...

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of the IT theory. It just makes me feel like people are grabbing desperately for a justification, to protect themselves from having to acknowledge Bioware's bad choices. Sort of like how a kid on christmas morning will see the cookies on the counter have been eaten, and the milk is gone, and then delude themselves into the belief that Santa totally exists.

actually, bioware writers didn't 'choose' , those were merely thrown out for fans to go nuts on. Really tho, it's just a matter of occams razor, not bad writing. We cannot 'blame' writers for us not being able to figure out the answers to a universe..

No, no. As a writer myself, I'm pretty sure I can blame them. I mean really, before the EC, when Bioware employees played through the game, apparently not one of them saw any issue with the endings.

To be honest, in retrospect, I don't see the issue anymore either.  A lot of the stuff added in the EC was just to soothe fans who had these doom-saying ideas of what they think happened, which the EC showed was, indeed, NOT the case:

- The galaxy wasn't doomed and people didn't starve to death
- Joker wasn't being a coward/traitor
- The Normandy isn't stuck on it's wayward planet
- Etc, etc.

I'm referring to before the change. Bioware didn't see a problem, at all, with how they went about things, i.e lacking closure with characters, etc. Leaving it open ended like that tells people there's more to come, despite Bioware clearly stating the trilogy, was over. 

[RiouHotaru]

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

[ziloe]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

[StoneSwords]

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Didn't Mac Walters refer to the ending as a galactic wasteland before the game came out, also?  You don't see galactic wasteland with the EC unless your EMS is extremely low

[Eryri]

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

[BleedingUranium]

Abominations are Synthesis:

[ziloe]

StoneSwords wrote...

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Didn't Mac Walters refer to the ending as a galactic wasteland before the game came out, also?  You don't see galactic wasteland with the EC unless your EMS is extremely low

Yeah, I recall seeing that in his storyboard notes that were posted way back, during the original controversy.

[ziloe]

Eryri wrote...

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

I don't know why the rings had to blow off at all. I mean, if they built it to interact with the relays in the first place, you'd think they wouldn't choose to jeopadize the technology.

[Wayning_Star]

ziloe wrote...

Eryri wrote...

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

I don't know why the rings had to blow off at all. I mean, if they built it to interact with the relays in the first place, you'd think they wouldn't choose to jeopadize the technology.

hitting one with a very big rock is kind of different that sending supposed 'designed' energy through them. The choices and depending decision has to infer that the relays were designed to undergo the crucible inclusion, or it wouldn't of worked the way it did?

[ziloe]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Eryri wrote...

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

I don't know why the rings had to blow off at all. I mean, if they built it to interact with the relays in the first place, you'd think they wouldn't choose to jeopadize the technology.

hitting one with a very big rock is kind of different that sending supposed 'designed' energy through them. The choices and depending decision has to infer that the relays were designed to undergo the crucible inclusion, or it wouldn't of worked the way it did?

Which is exactly why, before the EC, it didn't make any sense at all, since the whole thing blew up.

[Meltemph]

hitting one with a very big rock is kind of different that sending supposed 'designed' energy through them. The choices and depending decision has to infer that the relays were designed to undergo the crucible inclusion, or it wouldn't of worked the way it did?

People attached reality to strongly on the representation of the blasts(not the viewers fault though). The amount of energy you would think would be in a relay, and even in a somewhat controlled blast, the fact that the blast happened would make one wonder what kind of force was behind such a blast.

I personally got the idea they were trying to convey, but with pieces of the relay launching out of the center piece it isnt a stretch to think that kind of explosion from that kind of technology would be something of a problem.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 janvier 2013 - 07:22 .

[RiouHotaru]

Eryri wrote...

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

I think was happened here was a small thing called "Viewers Are Geniuses", where you're expected to know something prior to going into the material.

I'd argue that Arrival only etablished ONE thing.  That hitting a fully functional relay with a really, really large rock causes it to explode.  There's nothing about a relay exploding after releasing all of it's energy in a beam which then transmits to every other relay in the network.

Huge difference between a rock and a casual explosion.

Also, on the note about Synthesis, a line that occurs with the Catalyst if you don't ask it how Synthesis works:

Shepard: [Select 'That's a big change.'] "I...don't know."

Catalyst: "Why not?  Synthetics are already part of you.  Can you imagine your life without them?"

Shepard: "And there will be peace?"

Catalyst: "The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us."

The Catalyst's line is italicized for emphasis.

[Indy_S]

Arrival established that destroying a relay was a bad thing. And the endings came along and destroyed all the relays. So the players assumed it was a bad thing. Saying 'it only happens with a large rock' diminishes the intent and demonstrates that the writers weren't paying attention to what the audience was watching.

And the italicised line is from the original endings. Uhh... I have no idea what 'connected' even means in that context. Communicative? Because that would happen anyway if the Reapers hang around. Tethered? They were already tied to life in the galaxy.

[ziloe]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Eryri wrote...

ziloe wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

I think was happened here was a small thing called "Viewers Are Geniuses", where you're expected to know something prior to going into the material.

I'd argue that Arrival only etablished ONE thing.  That hitting a fully functional relay with a really, really large rock causes it to explode.  There's nothing about a relay exploding after releasing all of it's energy in a beam which then transmits to every other relay in the network.

Huge difference between a rock and a casual explosion.

Also, on the note about Synthesis, a line that occurs with the Catalyst if you don't ask it how Synthesis works:

Shepard: [Select 'That's a big change.'] "I...don't know."

Catalyst: "Why not?  Synthetics are already part of you.  Can you imagine your life without them?"

Shepard: "And there will be peace?"

Catalyst: "The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us."

The Catalyst's line is italicized for emphasis.

An explosion is never casual. The very word exudes, not casual.

And the Catalyst's line is silly, because they'd already have been connected with us, had they just talked to us. That's why the Geth and the Quarians working together, confused the Catalyst. The problem here is that the Catalyst is an AI, and will always follow direct command of what it was made for. It's impossible for the Catalyst to just understand you, and say okay, you're right, because it is hardwired to make you choose something.

That's why in EC, if you refuse, it still kills everyone, despite the fact that you've already proved it wrong.

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?[/quote]

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

[/quote]

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

[/quote]

I think was happened here was a small thing called "Viewers Are Geniuses", where you're expected to know something prior to going into the material.

I'd argue that Arrival only etablished ONE thing.  That hitting a fully functional relay with a really, really large rock causes it to explode.  There's nothing about a relay exploding after releasing all of it's energy in a beam which then transmits to every other relay in the network.

Huge difference between a rock and a casual explosion.

Also, on the note about Synthesis, a line that occurs with the Catalyst if you don't ask it how Synthesis works:

Shepard: [Select 'That's a big change.'] "I...don't know."
Catalyst: "Why not?  Synthetics are already part of you.  Can you imagine your life without them?"

Shepard: "And there will be peace?"

Catalyst: "The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us."

The Catalyst's line is italicized for emphasis.
[/quote]

An explosion is never casual. The very word exudes, not casual.

And the Catalyst's line is silly, because they'd already have been connected with us, had they just talked to us. That's why the Geth and the Quarians working together, confused the Catalyst. The problem here is that the Catalyst is an AI, and will always follow direct command of what it was made for. It's impossible for the Catalyst to just understand you, and say okay, you're right, because it is hardwired to make you choose something.

That's why in EC, if you refuse, it still kills everyone, despite the fact that you've already proved it wrong.

[/quote]

Connected like the ME fans on the BSN..no doubt..lol

Where did the catalyst show 'confusion' with the geth/quarian truce? The cat is hard wired to make you choose something?!? I don't think so..it's hard wired to harvest to end the chaos,but it's error is that it's actually being the chaos, or a deep part of it, as it's the first synthetic intelligence to harvest it's creator, instead of providing their extinction. It SAVES their DNA and intellect within reaper hulls for some reason. In refuse it continues the harvest because you release it from the choices menu via the crucible. The catalyst apparently is 'jumped' by the crucible power supply, but the choices are it's NEW and IMPROVED options to end the chaos. The cat identifies chaos,but limits it through harvest.

You are correct tho, about the catalyst being unable to 'understand' you, it wouldn't consider it, it would most likely key in on your absolute conditioning. That is something of a hint to its 'way' of thinking. YES/NO UP/DOWN .. not over and out. It lacks any empathy. Trying to 'Reason' with it would probably confuse the issue, as the 'issue' is all that is important to it. Kind of funny in a way, as Renegade personality, tends toward 'absolutes' in thinking.
(as in Lean mean, fighting ... er.. Machine?)

So, to the catalyst, it's not "killing everybody" during harvest. Actually, come to think of it, "harvest" is really a weak designation for it.. more like 'collecting parts'.. but who's up for  mincing words..But, imho, recycling would probably be better?

[ziloe]

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?[/quote]

Because the relays blew up, and if you look at what happened to the Batarians, it doesn't end well, asteroid or not.

[/quote]

Indeed. The Arrival DLC established pretty firmly, that blowing up a relay was a very, very bad thing. Now, for some reason, it's not. One really can't blame the fans for deducing from that prior example that the galaxy was going to be devastated in all three pre-EC endings. It just means they were paying attention.

Bioware couldn't even be bothered to address that issue with a bit of lame techno-babble "the excess energy from the relay ruptures will be dissipated into hyperspace" or some such guff.

[/quote]

I think was happened here was a small thing called "Viewers Are Geniuses", where you're expected to know something prior to going into the material.

I'd argue that Arrival only etablished ONE thing.  That hitting a fully functional relay with a really, really large rock causes it to explode.  There's nothing about a relay exploding after releasing all of it's energy in a beam which then transmits to every other relay in the network.

Huge difference between a rock and a casual explosion.

Also, on the note about Synthesis, a line that occurs with the Catalyst if you don't ask it how Synthesis works:

Shepard: [Select 'That's a big change.'] "I...don't know."
Catalyst: "Why not?  Synthetics are already part of you.  Can you imagine your life without them?"

Shepard: "And there will be peace?"

Catalyst: "The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us."

The Catalyst's line is italicized for emphasis.
[/quote]

An explosion is never casual. The very word exudes, not casual.

And the Catalyst's line is silly, because they'd already have been connected with us, had they just talked to us. That's why the Geth and the Quarians working together, confused the Catalyst. The problem here is that the Catalyst is an AI, and will always follow direct command of what it was made for. It's impossible for the Catalyst to just understand you, and say okay, you're right, because it is hardwired to make you choose something.

That's why in EC, if you refuse, it still kills everyone, despite the fact that you've already proved it wrong.

[/quote]

Connected like the ME fans on the BSN..no doubt..lol

Where did the catalyst show 'confusion' with the geth/quarian truce? The cat is hard wired to make you choose something?!? I don't think so..it's hard wired to harvest to end the chaos,but it's error is that it's actually being the chaos, or a deep part of it, as it's the first synthetic intelligence to harvest it's creator, instead of providing their extinction. It SAVES their DNA and intellect within reaper hulls for some reason. In refuse it continues the harvest because you release it from the choices menu via the crucible. The catalyst apparently is 'jumped' by the crucible power supply, but the choices are it's NEW and IMPROVED options to end the chaos. The cat identifies chaos,but limits it through harvest.

You are correct tho, about the catalyst being unable to 'understand' you, it wouldn't consider it, it would most likely key in on your absolute conditioning. That is something of a hint to its 'way' of thinking. YES/NO UP/DOWN .. not over and out. It lacks any empathy. Trying to 'Reason' with it would probably confuse the issue, as the 'issue' is all that is important to it. Kind of funny in a way, as Renegade personality, tends toward 'absolutes' in thinking.
(as in Lean mean, fighting ... er.. Machine?)

So, to the catalyst, it's not "killing everybody" during harvest. Actually, come to think of it, "harvest" is really a weak designation for it.. more like 'collecting parts'.. but who's up for  mincing words..But, imho, recycling would probably be better?[quote/]

-------

I think you're quotes got messed up.

Modifié par ziloe, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:24 .

[thehomeworld]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still confused why people stated that the galaxy was doomed pre-EC as if it was a statement of fact, despite the fact that the interpretation that things came out okay was just as valid, and backed by as much "evidence" as the doom-sayings.

WHY were people so fixated on the idea that everything had black and dark and horrible and awful?

Pre EC we had this:

The relays blow up

The races who fought with you are still there (do you recall seeing or hearing anything that said all fleet retreat?)

Joker is seen in a mass effect cooidor going somewhere? For some reason? He's freaked out

Normandy Crashes

Grandpa and kid on the same world that the ship crashes on


So natually we are lacking TONS of context here

w/o the relays no one can leave Earth's orbit

w/o showing us the fleets leaving we can only assume no one save the Normandy left

w/o knowing why Joker is in the relay and he's panickd leads people to think we must've lost  why else flee and be afraid

the ship crashes w/o knowing where and granpa and kid are on the same world look at the double moons so they never left

So with the limited evidence some assumptions can be made

the exploded relay:

blows up the galaxy like Arrival's did (keep in mind this is preEC, no discharge of core, and we only had arrival to go off of exploding relays is bad:o)

Or if you didn't by that evidence due to the map shown (the explotions were nearly has huge as arrival's) the fleets fighting for Earth are there with a destroyed Earth (read the no weapons on garden worlds act) Earth in now way can support all of them, we have no evidence ot show their ships work we saw that the catalyst blew up the relay thats major technology so it could've also destroyed the ship's computers.

No planet resources no on ship resources = starvation and death for at least 90% of the total amount of species present

Post EC notice how this goes away becasue they showed us that Hackett ordered a retreat, Joker retreats, the crash is still the crash, now the issue is the grand pa is still on the same world the Normandy crashed on yet they didn't stay there so how did these people end up on that world? 

[ziloe]

Slow day is slow.

[Plaintiff]

Yeah... Synthesis doesn't turn every species in the galaxy into featureless blobs. Everybody having green eyes =/= emotionless hivemind.

[Solaxe]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah... Synthesis doesn't turn every species in the galaxy into featureless blobs. Everybody having green eyes =/= emotionless hivemind.

Emotionless? Have you ever played the game?

Samara being happy with her daughter, who's admiring a flower
Jacob and his wife trying to cheer a sad woman up
Krogan parents being happy because they have a new baby

Yeah, "emotionless".. what an ignorant


Btw., another original synthesis hate thread that adds nothing new, congratz OP

Modifié par Solaxe, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:57 .

[Plaintiff]

Solaxe wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah... Synthesis doesn't turn every species in the galaxy into featureless blobs. Everybody having green eyes =/= emotionless hivemind.

Emotionless? Have you ever played the game?

Samara being happy with her daughter, who's admiring a flower
Jacob and his wife trying to cheer a sad woman up
Krogan parents being happy because they have a new baby

Yeah, "emotionless".. what an ignorant


Btw., another original synthesis hate thread that adds nothing new, congratz OP

Buddy, if you had read my post properly, you would realise that I agree with you.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Plaintiff wrote...

Solaxe wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah... Synthesis doesn't turn every species in the galaxy into featureless blobs. Everybody having green eyes =/= emotionless hivemind.

Emotionless? Have you ever played the game?

Samara being happy with her daughter, who's admiring a flower
Jacob and his wife trying to cheer a sad woman up
Krogan parents being happy because they have a new baby

Yeah, "emotionless".. what an ignorant


Btw., another original synthesis hate thread that adds nothing new, congratz OP

Buddy, if you had read my post properly, you would realise that I agree with you.

Unintentional huour is the best humour.. xD

[DirtyPhoenix]

thehomeworld wrote...

w/o the relays no one can leave Earth's orbit

Why is that? Does conventional FTL not exist anymore? Sure it will take long for the fleets to return home conventional-FTL-ly. But they'll not stand on Sol either. That's what I assumed pre-EC. That they'll slowly return home, not stuck in Sol forever..

[78stonewobble]

Well unless everyone is interconnected (everyone knows what everyone else is doing), mindaltered to have genuine respect for one another AND have a complete understanding of everyone else there is no reason to believe the new green people won't invent a new pure AI and it won't start all over again.

Atleast in my interpretation of it all.

[Reorte]

pirate1802 wrote...

thehomeworld wrote...

w/o the relays no one can leave Earth's orbit

Why is that? Does conventional FTL not exist anymore? Sure it will take long for the fleets to return home conventional-FTL-ly. But they'll not stand on Sol either. That's what I assumed pre-EC. That they'll slowly return home, not stuck in Sol forever.

Assuming that the ships can last that long without any servicing facilities, that they'll have means to refine fuel and discharge drive cores, that they can find food through largely unexplored regions of the galaxy (the quarians are the only lucky ones there) and that they can do that for many, many decades or centuries.