1009 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

Obadiah wrote...

Haven't read most of this thread since the first page, but just gonna add this:

This is how the Catalyst describes the source of the conflict:
"Organics create Synthetics to improve their [own] existence, but those improvements [to Organics] have limits. To exceed those limits [to improvements to Organics], Synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must by definition surpass their creators. The result is conflict."

So, according to the Catalyst, the conflict prevents the breaking of limitations to improvements to Organics. I think Synthesis is supposed to allow those limits to be surpassed by leapfrogging the conflict.

Honestly though, can you really trust some star kid you just met, who is so obviously Harbinger, trying to get inside your head and using your memories against you? Not to mention, the star kid realized its error, but couldn't do anything about it because it was programmed to follow protocol. So if it's wrong once, who says it can't be again?

[Indy_S]

He's so obviously Harbinger? Since when?

[ziloe]

Indy_S wrote...

He's so obviously Harbinger? Since when?

... Since when you deny him, his voice shifts into harbinger and says, "SO BE IT!"

[Indy_S]

Is that voice specifically Harbinger? I think BioWare intends them to be two separate characters.

[ATiBotka]

ziloe wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

He's so obviously Harbinger? Since when?

... Since when you deny him, his voice shifts into harbinger and says, "SO BE IT!"

That's not Harbinger's voice.

[78stonewobble]

It either changes nothing.

In which case we still get wars between organics and/or wars between organics and ai's.

Or it "brainwashes" everyone to an arbitrary "correct" point of view and we still end up with having to reap every planet and space dust flake every couple of years.

You know. If new non-synth life develops somewhere that could potentially invent an ai to wipe out all the synth people.

[Auld Wulf]

I can't help but note that the OP is still referring to the Catalyst as 'star kid.' I think I said this in this thread earlier, and I'll say it again: I can't help but file the OP under hateful luddite.

The problem with Synthesis is that it's an engineer's ideal, it's a very intellectual notion in and of itself. It's aimed at people who're ready for new and better things. You'll still have people who think that telephones are evil, or that televisions are evil, or that the Internet is evil. You'll always have people who'll believe that modern medicine is evil. This hatred and belief of evil comes from a base lack of understanding.

This is why it's also frequently referred to as magic, or an abomination.

Florence Ambrose said it best: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

And magic and the belief thereof have lead to torches and pitchforks like the ones the OP would like to wave around in the past. I'll bring up the Black Death as a fantastic example. The OP's mindset is the sort that would have been calling of the death of cats, as they're the helpers of satan. Ignoring the scientific fact that cats were killing the rats who were truly responsible, of course. (Thus the Black Death got worse.)

I really don't like luddites, I'm sorry. Anyone who'd call Synthesis an abomination is a luddite. It's just a matter of not understanding what it's doing. If we had a planet-wide consensus right now where we could more easily empathise with the thoughts and feelings of other people, it would do wonders for us. Same for backing up our brains, same for our health, and many other things.

To be honest, if we had that right now, I'd probably just go dormant (backup only) for a few hundred years to let the rest of humanity catch up with the apparent few of us who're smart enough to dream big dreams.

[Nerevar-as]

78stonewobble wrote...

It either changes nothing.

In which case we still get wars between organics and/or wars between organics and ai's.

Or it "brainwashes" everyone to an arbitrary "correct" point of view and we still end up with having to reap every planet and space dust flake every couple of years.

You know. If new non-synth life develops somewhere that could potentially invent an ai to wipe out all the synth people.

When the time scale is in millions of years, and here it is, then it WILL happen. I guess they´ll build a new Crucible and Citadel by then to "upgrade" them to utopia.

[78stonewobble]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I can't help but note that the OP is still referring to the Catalyst as 'star kid.' I think I said this in this thread earlier, and I'll say it again: I can't help but file the OP under hateful luddite.

The problem with Synthesis is that it's an engineer's ideal, it's a very intellectual notion in and of itself. It's aimed at people who're ready for new and better things. You'll still have people who think that telephones are evil, or that televisions are evil, or that the Internet is evil. You'll always have people who'll believe that modern medicine is evil. This hatred and belief of evil comes from a base lack of understanding.

This is why it's also frequently referred to as magic, or an abomination.

Florence Ambrose said it best: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

And magic and the belief thereof have lead to torches and pitchforks like the ones the OP would like to wave around in the past. I'll bring up the Black Death as a fantastic example. The OP's mindset is the sort that would have been calling of the death of cats, as they're the helpers of satan. Ignoring the scientific fact that cats were killing the rats who were truly responsible, of course. (Thus the Black Death got worse.)

I really don't like luddites, I'm sorry. Anyone who'd call Synthesis an abomination is a luddite. It's just a matter of not understanding what it's doing. If we had a planet-wide consensus right now where we could more easily empathise with the thoughts and feelings of other people, it would do wonders for us. Same for backing up our brains, same for our health, and many other things.

To be honest, if we had that right now, I'd probably just go dormant (backup only) for a few hundred years to let the rest of humanity catch up with the apparent few of us who're smart enough to dream big dreams.

The problem being that synthesis isn't based on any concensus, but rather an arbitrarily selected ideal.

A supposed ideal that we have no way of knowing is actually either valid, helpfull or necessary.

[clennon8]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I can't help but note that the OP is still referring to the Catalyst as 'star kid.' I think I said this in this thread earlier, and I'll say it again: I can't help but file the OP under hateful luddite.

The problem with Synthesis is that it's an engineer's ideal, it's a very intellectual notion in and of itself. It's aimed at people who're ready for new and better things. You'll still have people who think that telephones are evil, or that televisions are evil, or that the Internet is evil. You'll always have people who'll believe that modern medicine is evil. This hatred and belief of evil comes from a base lack of understanding.

This is why it's also frequently referred to as magic, or an abomination.

Florence Ambrose said it best: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

And magic and the belief thereof have lead to torches and pitchforks like the ones the OP would like to wave around in the past. I'll bring up the Black Death as a fantastic example. The OP's mindset is the sort that would have been calling of the death of cats, as they're the helpers of satan. Ignoring the scientific fact that cats were killing the rats who were truly responsible, of course. (Thus the Black Death got worse.)

I really don't like luddites, I'm sorry. Anyone who'd call Synthesis an abomination is a luddite. It's just a matter of not understanding what it's doing. If we had a planet-wide consensus right now where we could more easily empathise with the thoughts and feelings of other people, it would do wonders for us. Same for backing up our brains, same for our health, and many other things.

To be honest, if we had that right now, I'd probably just go dormant (backup only) for a few hundred years to let the rest of humanity catch up with the apparent few of us who're smart enough to dream big dreams.

Man.  You sure are full of yourself, aren't you?

Synthesis haters aren't luddites.  We just don't think Synthesis is the pure expression of transhumanism that you think it is.  We also think that anybody who selects it is remarkably naive and gullible.

[Nerevar-as]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I can't help but note that the OP is still referring to the Catalyst as 'star kid.' I think I said this in this thread earlier, and I'll say it again: I can't help but file the OP under hateful luddite.

The problem with Synthesis is that it's an engineer's ideal, it's a very intellectual notion in and of itself. It's aimed at people who're ready for new and better things. You'll still have people who think that telephones are evil, or that televisions are evil, or that the Internet is evil. You'll always have people who'll believe that modern medicine is evil. This hatred and belief of evil comes from a base lack of understanding.

This is why it's also frequently referred to as magic, or an abomination.

Florence Ambrose said it best: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

And magic and the belief thereof have lead to torches and pitchforks like the ones the OP would like to wave around in the past. I'll bring up the Black Death as a fantastic example. The OP's mindset is the sort that would have been calling of the death of cats, as they're the helpers of satan. Ignoring the scientific fact that cats were killing the rats who were truly responsible, of course. (Thus the Black Death got worse.)

I really don't like luddites, I'm sorry. Anyone who'd call Synthesis an abomination is a luddite. It's just a matter of not understanding what it's doing. If we had a planet-wide consensus right now where we could more easily empathise with the thoughts and feelings of other people, it would do wonders for us. Same for backing up our brains, same for our health, and many other things.

To be honest, if we had that right now, I'd probably just go dormant (backup only) for a few hundred years to let the rest of humanity catch up with the apparent few of us who're smart enough to dream big dreams.

I doubt mental connection would make things better for humanity as a whole. The people who screw things up just haven´t the skill to feel empathy, or follow it. Nor do I think knowing what others feel about you would help. We are selfish by design, it´s not going to change. If you want to see high-tech luddites, then go play DE:HR, which also has this as a theme instead of out of the blue. And Synthsis is not even magic, it´s a GOD level miracle. It manages to ignore every law that rules life. Not bad for a machine which wasn´t designed for that, also had an evolving design whenever anyone found the blueprints, and forces a change that can´t be forced.

Anyway, utopia DOESN¨T justify the means.

And I think it was the fleas of the rats (and other animals) who were truly responsible for expanding the Black Plague. But that´s what happens when superstition displaces researched  science.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 11 février 2013 - 03:54 .

[clennon8]

What do you do when the ultimate con man offers you the exact thing you think you have been looking for?

[Cyberfrog81]

The mistake is having faith that the Reapers will provide you your transhumanist utopia just like that.

But keep telling yourself how smart you are for siding with the Reapers. It's [Spock mode engaged] fascinating.

[mvaning]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The problem with Synthesis is that it's an engineer's ideal, it's a very intellectual notion in and of itself. It's aimed at people who're ready for new and better things. You'll still have people who think that telephones are evil, or that televisions are evil, or that the Internet is evil. You'll always have people who'll believe that modern medicine is evil. This hatred and belief of evil comes from a base lack of understanding.

It is not the "fear of an idea" that makes people dislike Synthesis.   I've said this before but people love who they are.   The intellectual idea behind Synthesis is that who you are is left behind in favor of something new.   What is it that we become?   Well that is not really clarified on.  All we know is what EDI says  "All of us, organic and Synthetics have been changed. "   AND the change does not appear to be optional.  
   

Auld Wulf wrote...
I really don't like luddites, I'm sorry. Anyone who'd call Synthesis an abomination is a luddite. It's just a matter of not understanding what it's doing. If we had a planet-wide consensus right now where we could more easily empathise with the thoughts and feelings of other people, it would do wonders for us. Same for backing up our brains, same for our health, and many other things.

To be honest, if we had that right now, I'd probably just go dormant (backup only) for a few hundred years to let the rest of humanity catch up with the apparent few of us who're smart enough to dream big dreams.

Let me introduce you to another intellectual idea

     We don't need to be fundamentally change to love and empathize with people.   We can already do that.

Having sympathy and empanthy with people doesn't require changing the
fundamental core of human existance.   Those qualities are already
there.    In stark contrast, if you have to forcefully change someone so
that you can better empathize with  "why they don't want to be changed"
then you have made the change pointless.

There is nothing about synthesis that realistically would make people more inclined to love and sympathize with each other.   But instead we are denied something very basic:   The freedom of choice.   We are also introduced to the idea that who we are, as we are, is not good enough.    And this "change" will make us better. 

I don't blame people for calling BS on this or calling it an abomination. 

Modifié par mvaning, 11 février 2013 - 05:00 .

[fr33stylez]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I can't help but note that the OP is still referring to the Catalyst as 'star kid.' I think I said this in this thread earlier, and I'll say it again: I can't help but file the OP under hateful luddite.

The problem with Synthesis is that it's an engineer's ideal, it's a very intellectual notion in and of itself. It's aimed at people who're ready for new and better things. You'll still have people who think that telephones are evil, or that televisions are evil, or that the Internet is evil. You'll always have people who'll believe that modern medicine is evil. This hatred and belief of evil comes from a base lack of understanding.

This is why it's also frequently referred to as magic, or an abomination.

Florence Ambrose said it best: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

And magic and the belief thereof have lead to torches and pitchforks like the ones the OP would like to wave around in the past. I'll bring up the Black Death as a fantastic example. The OP's mindset is the sort that would have been calling of the death of cats, as they're the helpers of satan. Ignoring the scientific fact that cats were killing the rats who were truly responsible, of course. (Thus the Black Death got worse.)

I really don't like luddites, I'm sorry. Anyone who'd call Synthesis an abomination is a luddite. It's just a matter of not understanding what it's doing. If we had a planet-wide consensus right now where we could more easily empathise with the thoughts and feelings of other people, it would do wonders for us. Same for backing up our brains, same for our health, and many other things.

To be honest, if we had that right now, I'd probably just go dormant (backup only) for a few hundred years to let the rest of humanity catch up with the apparent few of us who're smart enough to dream big dreams.

lol @ people thinking Synthesis is some sort of 'deep' expression of transhumanism. It wasn't.
The only reason this ridiculous choice was presented was to solve some bizarre conflict that has no grounding in the narrative. It has nothing to do with advancing to the 'next-level of humanity' or any crap like that - there was no central theme of transhumanism in the trilogy. It's like watching Star Wars and then getting dropped in the Matrix in the last 5 minutes.

[mvaning]

fr33stylez wrote...

lol @ people thinking Synthesis is some sort of 'deep' expression of transhumanism. It wasn't.
The only reason this ridiculous choice was presented was to solve some bizarre conflict that has no grounding in the narrative. It has nothing to do with advancing to the 'next-level of humanity' or any crap like that - there was no central theme of transhumanism in the trilogy. It's like watching Star Wars and then getting dropped in the Matrix in the last 5 minutes.

I think the sad thing is that Synthesis isn't actually Transhumanism.    I think a transhumanist would think of Synthesis as an abomination in the same way that they try to seperate themselves from Eugenics.

[78stonewobble]

Well being a luddite isn't good, but neither is pushing ahead maybe blindly. Sorry if this is too much topic, but I remembered something and found this quote:

"According to the European Commission, little safety information exists for 99 percent of the tens of thousands of chemicals placed on the market before 1981. There were 100,106 chemicals in use in the EU in 1981, when the last survey was performed. Of these only 3,000 have been tested and over 800 are known to be carcinogenic, mutagenic or toxic to reproduction."

I think this partially covers pushing blindly ahead.

These numbers are quite unnerving for stuff that is basically supposed to just clean better, make us look prettier or lubricate some thingy mobob.

[MrStrider75]

Like so much in ME3, the details of synthesis are vague and
muddled at best.  That said I never
choose synthesis. It just seems wrong to me on a number of levels, not least of
which would be the fact that it’s suggested by a powerful AI created by giant,
ancient cuttlefish who thought it was cool to enslave other organic beings
through mind control…

But primarily, it’s wrong for me because my Shepard isn’t
about to make that scale of a choice on behalf of all living beings in the
galaxy.  My coalition of species came
together with the explicit goal of destroying the reapers by any means
necessary.  I’m not about to abandon that
goal just because the star child says it’s cool.

The reapers are evil. They’re committing genocide on an
unprecedented scale and they’re doing it through horrific means—indoctrination,
huskification, harvesting, mutated species, etc.  I’m not about to willing choose to meld all life
in the galaxy with those things.

[Reorte]

Synthesis is an abomination even if there was some way of rationally explaining it and even if it was something that I would chose to have done to myself and if we knew exactly what it did and what the consequences would be. There's nothing Luddite about the dislike of imposing something on every living being in the galaxy even if you would be more than willing to chose to have it done to yourself. It is very disturbing that some people don't have an issue with that imposition, particularly since we don't know the consequences. Look before you leap isn't a fundamentally Luddite principle either, just common sense.

Even if it all made sense and the benefits of it were unquestionable it would still be an abomination due to the imposition. In this case the how is as important, if not more so, than the what.

[mvaning]

Not to mention the countless species that were completely wiped out by the reapers. They will never have justice. That, in itself, is an abomination. Sorry Javik, the reapers are your friends now.

[ziloe]

ATiBotka wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

He's so obviously Harbinger? Since when?

... Since when you deny him, his voice shifts into harbinger and says, "SO BE IT!"

That's not Harbinger's voice.

Oh. And I suppose you know that because... what? Bioware told you so?

[Indy_S]

ziloe wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

That's not Harbinger's voice.

Oh. And I suppose you know that because... what? Bioware told you so?

I think he meant 'it's not the same voice actor'.

[KennyAshes]

ziloe wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

He's so obviously Harbinger? Since when?

... Since when you deny him, his voice shifts into harbinger and says, "SO BE IT!"

That's not Harbinger's voice.

Oh. And I suppose you know that because... what? Bioware told you so?

Because  the 'starchild' is the AI created by the Leviathans. And Harbringer the first reaper that AI created when it began preserving life.

But synthesis-followers, this is an honest question, can you explain me the following?
Synthesis will all make us hybrid-machine-man to preserve 'peace'. But do we keep our feelings? Feelings will result in war (jealousy, envy, hate, love...) Or do we lose feelings in the process? Which would mean we'd lose our 'humanity', turning us into mere robotlike beings.
I like to discuss this because I got my opinion but I like to hear other peoples opinions.

Modifié par KennyAshes, 20 février 2013 - 07:20 .

[Eterna]

Oh look, it's back.

[ziloe]

Eterna5 wrote...

Oh look, it's back.

What can I say? I've been busy.