1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Indy_S wrote...

Auintus wrote...

As I interpret it, the peace only extends as far as the synthetic-organic conflict, a conflict of being. A conflict of belief or resources would still have reason to occur.
Did you see the slide with Samara and Falere? You wouldn't have something like that with no emotions. The bit after the crash-landing with Joker and EDI? Emotions. So, as I see it, it's fine in that regard.

Elevating this specific conflict to above all others is stupid. This single conflict is not worth overwriting galactic diversity. And if it does stop other conflicts... That has a whole bunch of negative implications, too.

[prayer wheel mode]
Synthesis does not overwrite galactic diversity. As the EC shows, the species are as different from each other as they were before. Synthesis removes one perspective from the galaxy: that of non-synthesized synthetics who don't understand organics. [/prayer wheel mode]

Also, it does not necessarily stop other conflicts. The sentence about "some are slow to see the benefits" is telling in that regard. Synthesis prevents that synthetics surpass organics. Conflicts might still happen, even between them, but they won't result in extinction events.

[Indy_S]

Ieldra2 wrote...

[prayer wheel mode]
Synthesis does not overwrite galactic diversity. As the EC shows, the species are as different from each other as they were before. Synthesis removes one perspective from the galaxy: that of non-synthesized synthetics who don't understand organics. [/prayer wheel mode]

Also, it does not necessarily stop other conflicts. The sentence about "some are slow to see the benefits" is telling in that regard. Synthesis prevents that synthetics surpass organics. Conflicts might still happen, even between them, but they won't result in extinction events.

You're right. It's not overwriting diversity. It is probably some form of genetic composition which doesn't make it more appealing to me. And since it only seems to address that one conflict, I really don't see that as worth it.

[Rhayak]

Indy_S wrote...
Others with that line of thinking are more diplomatic, more constructive. Proving yourself an ass is not what you should be doing. You did not enter here to seek or provide understanding. Move along.

I swear, i must've seen this type of arrogance a damn billion times in my social network adventures. If you knew my post was just a little innocent, lightly fun spam, then why did you even bother to criticize it? 
Answer: sheer lack of sense of humor.

Anyway, i will go over it for the <unknown number>th time.

Synthesis is the ideal solution. It brings harmony and peace to everyone. Everyone is happy, every future war between creator and created is averted, and the future is made only of progress and great endeavors. That's what the ending shows.
The fact that no one in the galaxy got to vote for it has very little weight. It happened, and it saved everyone. Deal with it, and be thankful.

I've been defending Synthesis since people started raving about it, and literally EVERY argument i've ever see against it was either assumption, ludditism, speculation, idealistic rant, and generally anything people could manage to wedge in the gaps of the writing, which i admit isn't exactly ironclad.
The whole Leviathan motivations are quite ridicolous, yes, and the very idea of universal peace is naive at best, but that's what happens in the game. That and nothing more. Weak writing is a weak base for attacks.

Besides, seriously, were you convinced i'd move along just because you told me so? Does saying "move along" after calling me an ass somehow solidifies your confidence that you ended the discussion? 

Because if that is really the case, wow, you're almost good enough to troll on youtube.

[Indy_S]

Surprisingly, 'move along' made you angry enough to contribute to the discussion in a constructive way. Perhaps in this instance, the ends justify the means.

[Rhayak]

Indy_S wrote...

Surprisingly, 'move along' made you angry enough to contribute to the discussion in a constructive way. Perhaps in this instance, the ends justify the means.

Now THIS is an answer i did not expect. Perhaps i misjudged you.

[Indy_S]

Rhayak wrote...

Now THIS is an answer i did not expect. Perhaps i misjudged you.

I like surprising people. And with your previous comment, I think we've reached an 'agree to disagree' point. Kudos. Would debate again.

[Rhayak]

Indy_S wrote...
I like surprising people. And with your previous comment, I think we've reached an 'agree to disagree' point. Kudos. Would debate again.

Kudos

[ElSuperGecko]

Isn't Synthesis a bit like solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's trigger fingers?

[Rhayak]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Isn't Synthesis a bit like solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's trigger fingers?

To use your contest, i think it'd be more like arresting the gun.

[Indy_S]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Isn't Synthesis a bit like solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's trigger fingers?

I can see what you're saying: Solve a problem by removing it as a possibility. However, no. That specific example is not like Synthesis. It would be like Synthesis if it was only to target armed robbery.

[Auintus]

78stonewobble wrote...
Based on the assumption that the catalyst has actually observed synthetics become powerfull and "evulz" enough to wipe out all organics.

If that has happened howcome there is organics everywhere?
Howcome this supposedly godly AI haven't stomped down the primitive reapers?

It probably isn't true then. Based on the available evidence which means reapers are trying to eliminate limited conflict (of which some have the potential to be solved peacefully) by starting limited conflict.

And again synthesis will require continued reapings of every planet and every flake of space dust in the galaxy. If true organic life develops there and this organic life develops true AI again.


Not to mention that there is room for ALOT more going on in the next galaxy over and the next one and the next one... Or are people arguing that the catalyst rewrote the entire universe with the push of a button.

If not... Any minute now somewhere in the mass effect universe a god ai will develop and noone can stop it.

EDIT: Yes I know that with FTL and billions of years the reapers could have spread across the observable universe.

But lets ponder that. 100 billion galaxies with reapers reaping every 50.000 years for maybe billions of years. I'd allmost wager that that is alot more killing and conflict than the offchance that a rogue ai would become powerfull enough to take out all organics everywhere (and suddenly leave as the catalyst would have us believe). It would necessarily take a lot longer inbetween for a new AI to spread from scratch.

It's not about evil, but okay.

Because the Leviathans were kind enough to try and stop the conflict that kept arising between the thrall races and the synthetics they created. Thus the Catalyst and, eventually, the Reapers came to be and have been preventing the "no organics" outcome for eons.
If I am correct, I believe the mass relay system exists only within our galaxy. That would make travel between galaxies impractical to the point of uselessness. Besides, the geth were content to limit themselves to the Far Rim. What's to say that another galaxy's synthetics wiped out their organics and saw no need to advance further. They don't reproduce like organics do, so they don't need to expand.

[Auintus]

Rhayak wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
I like surprising people. And with your previous comment, I think we've reached an 'agree to disagree' point. Kudos. Would debate again.

Kudos

Okay, that was pretty cool. Well played, Indy. Well played. Just for you.

[Indy_S]

Auintus wrote...

Okay, that was pretty cool. Well played, Indy. Well played. Just for you.

Thanks! We should all strive to obtain olde-timey applauses.

[Auintus]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Isn't Synthesis a bit like solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's trigger fingers?

Not quite. Synthesis addresses, or rather removes, the cause for S/O conflict. It addresses the reason rather than the capability. Note that no species has been de-militarized in any way.

[ziloe]

Auintus wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Isn't Synthesis a bit like solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's trigger fingers?

Not quite. Synthesis addresses, or rather removes, the cause for S/O conflict. It addresses the reason rather than the capability. Note that no species has been de-militarized in any way.

Which is exactly why there's still cause to worry. Reapers with freewill can be a very, very bad thing.

A dead reaper on the other hand? Not so much.

Modifié par ziloe, 23 février 2013 - 02:21 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

As I've thought about synthesis more I've decided that its concept is actually alright. Most people in the Mass Effect universe were moving toward cybernetic augmentations already. Shepard is a cyborg and Shepard rules so it stands to reason that cybernetic enhancements are pretty dope. So everyone was kinda already moving in that direction to begin with, Synthesis just gave that little extra nudge.

I still think green lazers that make everyone glow is silly though.

[Auintus]

ziloe wrote...

Which is exactly why there's still cause to worry. Reapers with freewill can be a very, very bad thing.

A dead reaper on the other hand? Not so much.

So free will isn't good unless it's yours? An interesting stance to take.

Evil is just a word. If you pay attention, the Reapers, or at least the Catalyst, truly believes that the cycle is the best solution. Once their problem was solved, they turn to making sure their "preservation" was not wasted. They have no reason to be hostile any longer and the EC shows as much.
Should I kill anyone so that they may never harm me? Jack said something of the sort, I believe.

[Auintus]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

As I've thought about synthesis more I've decided that its concept is actually alright. Most people in the Mass Effect universe were moving toward cybernetic augmentations already. Shepard is a cyborg and Shepard rules so it stands to reason that cybernetic enhancements are pretty dope. So everyone was kinda already moving in that direction to begin with, Synthesis just gave that little extra nudge.

I still think green lazers that make everyone glow is silly though.

I think its been said that the green glow is just to help you visualize it. It does look incredibly out of place, especially in the slides.

[New Display Name]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Isn't Synthesis a bit like solving gun crime by cutting off everyone's trigger fingers?

More like giving everyone bullet proof vests.
Synthesis doesn't take anything away from anyone.

[78stonewobble]

Rhayak wrote...
I swear, i must've seen this type of arrogance a damn billion times in my social network adventures. If you knew my post was just a little innocent, lightly fun spam, then why did you even bother to criticize it? 
Answer: sheer lack of sense of humor.

Anyway, i will go over it for the <unknown number>th time.

Synthesis is the ideal solution. It brings harmony and peace to everyone. Everyone is happy, every future war between creator and created is averted, and the future is made only of progress and great endeavors. That's what the ending shows.
The fact that no one in the galaxy got to vote for it has very little weight. It happened, and it saved everyone. Deal with it, and be thankful.

I've been defending Synthesis since people started raving about it, and literally EVERY argument i've ever see against it was either assumption, ludditism, speculation, idealistic rant, and generally anything people could manage to wedge in the gaps of the writing, which i admit isn't exactly ironclad.
The whole Leviathan motivations are quite ridicolous, yes, and the very idea of universal peace is naive at best, but that's what happens in the game. That and nothing more. Weak writing is a weak base for attacks.

Besides, seriously, were you convinced i'd move along just because you told me so? Does saying "move along" after calling me an ass somehow solidifies your confidence that you ended the discussion? 

Because if that is really the case, wow, you're almost good enough to troll on youtube.

Sorry to say it, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary that your position isn't based on assumption, speculation, idealism and what not either?

I agree that the perfect happy future was the intention, but the plot, idea and execution of both were so poorly made that it's plain simply full of holes. 

If you completely dismiss the holes and headcannon them out, ignore what logically follows and think little to nothing of free will. Then synthesis is great and you should go for it.

If you're like me and can't put the brain in neutral then you have to go destroy or maybe control.

[78stonewobble]

Auintus wrote...
It's not about evil, but okay.

Because the Leviathans were kind enough to try and stop the conflict that kept arising between the thrall races and the synthetics they created. Thus the Catalyst and, eventually, the Reapers came to be and have been preventing the "no organics" outcome for eons.
If I am correct, I believe the mass relay system exists only within our galaxy. That would make travel between galaxies impractical to the point of uselessness. Besides, the geth were content to limit themselves to the Far Rim. What's to say that another galaxy's synthetics wiped out their organics and saw no need to advance further. They don't reproduce like organics do, so they don't need to expand.

Yeah I know (evil/evuhlz)... But realistically you need irrationality or emotions to start a conflict like this between synthetics and organics.

It's an underlying problem in lots of scifi dealing with this conflict between synthetics and organics.

Even us humans, have in the last few years proved that we can limit population growth. If boths sides can do that there is room and ressources enough for everyone. Especially in this case where we have a galaxy to grow in. Even more so if the synthetics only require energy which they could get from orbital platforms or eg. dysonspheres. 

[GethPrimeMKII]

78stonewobble wrote...

Auintus wrote...
It's not about evil, but okay.

Because the Leviathans were kind enough to try and stop the conflict that kept arising between the thrall races and the synthetics they created. Thus the Catalyst and, eventually, the Reapers came to be and have been preventing the "no organics" outcome for eons.
If I am correct, I believe the mass relay system exists only within our galaxy. That would make travel between galaxies impractical to the point of uselessness. Besides, the geth were content to limit themselves to the Far Rim. What's to say that another galaxy's synthetics wiped out their organics and saw no need to advance further. They don't reproduce like organics do, so they don't need to expand.

Yeah I know (evil/evuhlz)... But realistically you need irrationality or emotions to start a conflict like this between synthetics and organics.

It's an underlying problem in lots of scifi dealing with this conflict between synthetics and organics.

Even us humans, have in the last few years proved that we can limit population growth. If boths sides can do that there is room and ressources enough for everyone. Especially in this case where we have a galaxy to grow in. Even more so if the synthetics only require energy which they could get from orbital platforms or eg. dysonspheres. 

I'm curious. Can you list every sci fi series where you think 'organics vs synthetics' is the underlying issue?

[Wayning_Star]

turn off all your computerized equipment and never use them again, find the 'underlying issues' with organics vs synthetics.. Self explanitory..lol

[Sentient6]

78stonewobble wrote...

I agree that the perfect happy future was the intention, but the plot, idea and execution of both were so poorly made that it's plain simply full of holes. 

If you completely dismiss the holes and headcannon them out, ignore what logically follows and think little to nothing of free will. Then synthesis is great and you should go for it.

That just boils down to poor execution. And like he said, weak writing is a weak excuse.

As for the other two choices, Control makes even less sence, because it pretty much means Shepard makes a split-second decision to do a 180 and go against everything he beleived in for the last 3 games. As for Destroy, it can be interpreted as the worst of the lot, because with the Reapers gone, organic life can finally completely annihilate themselves (which is the Reaper's reason for the Cycle in the first place).

Basically, what I'm trying to say that all 3 endings are poor because they were poorly done. But as far as the ideas behind them go, Synthesis is meant to be the "idyllic" choice (Shep sacrificing himself to ensure lasting galactic piece and harmony, blah blah blah). Not everyone might think it's necessarily the "best" choice, but that's why the other two options are there.

Modifié par Sentient6, 23 février 2013 - 01:51 .

[Wayning_Star]

actually synthesis doesn't insure lasting galatic peace. Might be a step in that direction, but really, most cynics agree, that they would never accept peace as "idyllic".

disclaimer: well, on the BSN anyways.