1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

[WhiteKnyght]

Rifneno wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Bah, I'll drag their assess to glory whether they like it or not.

You love EDI and Legion, but you're racist towards synthetics and don't want to do anything for their benefit? As for the Geth and the Quarian suits, Tali wouldn't have bothered to tell Shepard unless she had proof that it was working. Mimic an infection to jump start the immune system.

If you think Synthetics are a detriment to society, then you're a hypocrite just for posting it on the internet, with technology(aka synthetics)

The point of Mass Effect is survival. Not to exterminate the Reapers. Stopping everyone from being murdered is the goal.

They're one and the same.  If you think killing yourself and hoping for the best because a Reaper told you that'll change things is ensuring the end of the horror then you're doing it dreadfully wrong.  There's a reason you're told time and time again: dead reapers are how we win this.

And shooting a random pipe and getting yourself caught in an explosion on the Catalyst's word that it'll destroy the Reapers is any more trustworthy? The Catalyst reminds you that you're half synthetic yourself and will die as well. If he were trying to deceive you, why would he tell you the correct way to destroy his people and his solution?

Plus Shepard only really dies in Destroy and Synthesis. In control, you're immortal. Body dissolves, but the mind integrates into the system.(The minds of the Reapers themselves are the organics processed to create them. So it's just a matter of where your mind is going) Shepard's survival in Destroy is dumb luck because the Crucible was intact enough so that the pulse was weak enough to not fry all his implants. And then there's still his organic parts keeping him alive for the time being.

Also after you make the choice, you're given a lengthy cutscene showing the crucible firing and the effects it has. Then Bioware added a free expansion(one that was probably expensive to make) just to give you the closure you wanted. Actions speak louder than words, and Bioware's actions say that all endings are real - they work.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[BrookerT]

Rifneno wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Bah, I'll drag their assess to glory whether they like it or not.

You love EDI and Legion, but you're racist towards synthetics and don't want to do anything for their benefit? As for the Geth and the Quarian suits, Tali wouldn't have bothered to tell Shepard unless she had proof that it was working. Mimic an infection to jump start the immune system.

If you think Synthetics are a detriment to society, then you're a hypocrite just for posting it on the internet, with technology(aka synthetics)

The point of Mass Effect is survival. Not to exterminate the Reapers. Stopping everyone from being murdered is the goal.

They're one and the same.  If you think killing yourself and hoping for the best because a Reaper told you that'll change things is ensuring the end of the horror then you're doing it dreadfully wrong.  There's a reason you're told time and time again: dead reapers are how we win this.

So you assume that the Catalyst is telling you the truth about destroying the reapers? Are they really dead, did you just kill all synthetics in the galaxy and set back vital technology ten yeras on the words of the head of the reapers?

edit* lol ninja'd to the max

Modifié par BrookerT, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

[mass perfection]

How does the cycle continue in a new form?How does Synthesis kill diversity?How did we not earn it when the Catalyst said we were ready?

[Ieldra]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The assertion that taking technology from somewhere else is intrinsically worse than creating your own is not science but ideology.

That technology can have undesired side effects on society is a banality. Where that technology comes from, however, is irrelevant. It's just as possible that we develop a technology whose effects we don't understand well enough and create a disaster.

It is, yet again, the difference between technical expertise and technology assessment. It's possible to have the former but to be not knowledgeable enough in the latter, wherever the technology comes from. Usually, we engage in technology assessment after we have acquired the technology and the expertise to use it. 

Banality might be the wrong word there. 

It is worse. I'm a believer in tempered advancement. If I found alien technology that could be used to potentially open up the stars to us, I would, crazily enough, not show it to the world. I would keep it hidden till comes a day when Humanity either proves through sufficient cultural revolution and change, or if it was rendered irrelevent through the natural progression of human technology. We aren't ready for that kind of technology. We would never use it for something that could be hopeful or good.

And you are the judge whether humanity is ready? On which grounds? also, "we aren't ready" is an empty assertion. You never know if this is true unless you try it out. Yeah, likely we'll use any new technology for both bad and good things. That's just human nature. I find it delusional to believe that will ever change. All you can expect is that we learn not to destroy ourselves, because that's in everyone's interest, and even that will come late. If you expect cultural maturation before the technology we would mature into exists, you'll wait forever.  

[WhiteKnyght]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

Bah. Human history is nothing but us taking the secrets and practices of others and making them our own, then improving on them. Doing so with the Reapers' technology is no different.

The mass effect technology humans use came from the Protheans, and down the line from the Reapers themselves. All modern technology in ME descends from the Reapers, right down to the implants keeping Shepard not-dead since ME2.

[mass perfection]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

If we could achieve it on our own technological terms then why is there still organic and synthetic conflict?

[fiendishchicken]

mass perfection wrote...

How does the cycle continue in a new form?How does Synthesis kill diversity?How did we not earn it when the Catalyst said we were ready?

Why exactly does the Catalyst think we're ready for Synthesis? Why is the Catalysts problem even a concern for me? 

[mass perfection]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

Bah. Human history is nothing but us taking the secrets and practices of others and making them our own, then improving on them. Doing so with the Reapers' technology is no different.

The mass effect technology humans use came from the Protheans, and down the line from the Reapers themselves. All modern technology in ME descends from the Reapers, right down to the implants keeping Shepard not-dead since ME2.

This.If we would rather achieve Synthesis on our own terms then we should also get rid of just about all of our technology we got from the Reapers and achieve on our own terms.

Modifié par mass perfection, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[spirosz]

111987 wrote...


We built the Crucible, thus we earned it

You've lost me, what. 

[Ieldra]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

That the Reapers have a role in the post-Synthesis future is a different theme than the core Synthesis. Here the union of man and machine, there "anti-Lovecraft", if you want. I can see how that might appear terrifying to some, but I like that aspect and wouldn't have it any other way. I think it's written rather ham-handed, though. Siduri gave the Reapers a much more subtle presence in her epilogues. I would've preferred that. The version we have sends the wrong message.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And you are the judge whether humanity is ready? On which grounds? also, "we aren't ready" is an empty assertion. You never know if this is true unless you try it out. Yeah, likely we'll use any new technology for both bad and good things. That's just human nature. I find it delusional to believe that will ever change. All you can expect is that we learn not to destroy ourselves, because that's in everyone's interest, and even that will come late. If you expect cultural maturation before the technology we would mature into exists, you'll wait forever.  

Are you the judge either? I'll say on the grounds because nearly all of us on this planet cannot go a day without looking at or hearing about some kind of catastrophe. Or the wars we fight, or the genocides started, or the people who declare a holy war. 

It won't change. That's why humanity can never evolve artificially through these means. 

But I think we're different. Despite what I've mentioned, humans, in the western nations at least, are maturing and revolutionizing into something better. We learn to overcome our issues and use our technology responsibly. We haven't quite reached that threshold yet, but we will. Each advancing generation is one slow crawl to a better society. And when the time comes for us to understand the consequences of what would happen, including the positive to be strived for, then we will be ready.

[TheJediSaint]

Dubious morality aside, Synthesis is simply stupid.

Space magic turns everyone into cyborgs and there's no more conflict because of writer fiat.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[mass perfection]

fiendishchicken wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

How does the cycle continue in a new form?How does Synthesis kill diversity?How did we not earn it when the Catalyst said we were ready?

Why exactly does the Catalyst think we're ready for Synthesis? Why is the Catalysts problem even a concern for me? 

Because of how we're able to accept certain things.If we have low EMS then that means we obviously have less help from other races and we'll think "Those greedy asari/turians/krogan/salarian refuse to help with the war.We're going get them back".Also we need to be willing to accept synthetics into society.if Shepard chose to kill the geth then what does that tell the galaxy about them?What if Shepard chose the geth over quarians or made peace between them?If Shepard let them kill the quarians than that shows the galaxy that in some cases synthetics can be more trusting than organics.If we made peace then it shows that we can mae peace with synthetics.What if the galaxy knew that two of Shepards best friends was synthetic?They would think differently about them and will be more willing to accept them.You can't give people Synthesis and everything is all good.They have to be willing to accept synthetics and even other organics.

  The Catalyst's "problem" is a concern to you because everyone could be killed by synthetics.

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

That the Reapers have a role in the post-Synthesis future is a different theme than the core Synthesis. Here the union of man and machine, there "anti-Lovecraft", if you want. I can see how that might appear terrifying to some, but I like that aspect and wouldn't have it any other way. I think it's written rather ham-handed, though. Siduri gave the Reapers a much more subtle presence in her epilogues. I would've preferred that. The version we have sends the wrong message.

That sends a wrong message to me. I would never want to be part man part machine. I don't want the Reapers to play a role in the future, other than empty pulverized shells. What if the technology on the man cannot be controlled? What if man's inherent darkness corrupts the purpose of the machine? Philosophical questions? 

Besides, I'm pro-lovecraft. I want to see the incomprehensible monsters annihilating everything for their own unknowable purposes. It throws in a dash of fear of the unknown. I'm going to figure that that doesn't frighten you. But what about something you can't know, something that you can never hope to understand? All you can do is survive long enough to kill it before it kills you. Plain and simple. I know you hate simplicity, but I love it. Occam's Razor if you will. If it can be done in one step, instead of 30, why not do it that way.

Let's put it this way: where you see technology as an end in itself, I see it only as a tool, a means to an end. How we use that tool will dictate how we achieve our goal.

[xsdob]

You do realize that high ems destroy is the one that takes the most ems, and not synthesis, don't you OP?

But whatever lies help make your point seem more valid, I guess that's just the sacrifice to make a good argument.

[WhiteKnyght]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

And you are the judge whether humanity is ready? On which grounds? also, "we aren't ready" is an empty assertion. You never know if this is true unless you try it out. Yeah, likely we'll use any new technology for both bad and good things. That's just human nature. I find it delusional to believe that will ever change. All you can expect is that we learn not to destroy ourselves, because that's in everyone's interest, and even that will come late. If you expect cultural maturation before the technology we would mature into exists, you'll wait forever.  

Are you the judge either? I'll say on the grounds because nearly all of us on this planet cannot go a day without looking at or hearing about some kind of catastrophe. Or the wars we fight, or the genocides started, or the people who declare a holy war. 

It won't change. That's why humanity can never evolve artificially through these means. 

But I think we're different. Despite what I've mentioned, humans, in the western nations at least, are maturing and revolutionizing into something better. We learn to overcome our issues and use our technology responsibly. We haven't quite reached that threshold yet, but we will. Each advancing generation is one slow crawl to a better society. And when the time comes for us to understand the consequences of what would happen, including the positive to be strived for, then we will be ready.

Bull**** In Mass Effect's time, all of Earth's major nations have joined together and formed the Systems Alliance. Terra Firma is just a party in the Alliance that doesn't want alien infulences(but has been manipulated by Cerberus into a hate group.) Cerberus themselves are just a terrorist cell. For all intents and purposes, the revolutionizing you're talking about now, whcih is almost 200 years before ME's setting, has arguably already happened for them.

Besides, while the US is a lot nicer place to life than other places in the world, we're not so righteous. The nation has become little more than a hegemon who wages war with anybody with different beliefs than them. Confederates, Communists, Muslims. All while the Republicans and Democrats try to blame each other for all the problems with the nation itself. It's just a different color of the same crap. Pretty much every other nation and people in the world considers the US to be a bully, full of hateful and violent people who start wars with anybody they don't like. And they're right.

[Bill Casey]

xsdob wrote...

You do realize that high ems destroy is the one that takes the most ems, and not synthesis, don't you OP?

Yeah it's like...

3100 ems + Save Anderson - Highest Destroy Shep Lives
2800 ems - Synthesis
2800 ems - Refuse Speech
2350 or 2050 ems - Highest Control

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[XXIceColdXX]

Someone who understands, synthesis certainly is an abomination.

[XXIceColdXX]

It seems like this is one topic the BSN can agree on. Aw yeah.

[fiendishchicken]

mass perfection wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

How does the cycle continue in a new form?How does Synthesis kill diversity?How did we not earn it when the Catalyst said we were ready?

Why exactly does the Catalyst think we're ready for Synthesis? Why is the Catalysts problem even a concern for me? 

Because of how we're able to accept certain things.If we have low EMS then that means we obviously have less help from other races and we'll think "Those greedy asari/turians/krogan/salarian refuse to help with the war.We're going get them back".Also we need to be willing to accept synthetics into society.if Shepard chose to kill the geth then what does that tell the galaxy about them?What if Shepard chose the geth over quarians or made peace between them?If Shepard let them kill the quarians than that shows the galaxy that in some cases synthetics can be more trusting than organics.If we made peace then it shows that we can mae peace with synthetics.What if the galaxy knew that two of Shepards best friends was synthetic?They would think differently about them and will be more willing to accept them.You can't give people Synthesis and everything is all good.They have to be willing to accept synthetics and even other organics.

  The Catalyst's "problem" is a concern to you because everyone could be killed by synthetics.

I just proved him wrong at Rannoch, without achieving synthesis. I don't believe that the only solution to synthetics is synthesis. I believe the only solution to the Reapers is destruction. If the synthetics now have to die, sorry. I'm not doing it to kill them, I'm doing it to kill the Reapers. 

Why can't synthetics be a part of us in spite of our differences. The Geth and EDI have both proven that they are not cold, dispassionate machines. They are capable of reason, logic, and yes, emotion. They fully qualify as viable life of their own. I see what you're saying. And when that happens, when synthetics become a part of us as equals, why does synthesis need to occur? I don't see the need for it. We demonstrate that we're both working together and achieving a future together, what more is needed?

[mass perfection]

xsdob wrote...

You do realize that high ems destroy is the one that takes the most ems, and not synthesis, don't you OP?

But whatever lies help make your point seem more valid, I guess that's just the sacrifice to make a good argument.

That's the ending Shepard survives.High EMS Destroy is the same exact thing as Shepard survives except Shepard doesn't survive and has the same EMS requirement form high EMS Control.

[xsdob]

mass perfection wrote...

xsdob wrote...

You do realize that high ems destroy is the one that takes the most ems, and not synthesis, don't you OP?

But whatever lies help make your point seem more valid, I guess that's just the sacrifice to make a good argument.

That's the ending Shepard survives.High EMS Destroy is the same exact thing as Shepard survives except Shepard doesn't survive and has the same EMS requirement form high EMS Control.

Does it, or does it not, take more ems to get the high ems destroy ending?

[fiendishchicken]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Bull**** In Mass Effect's time, all of Earth's major nations have joined together and formed the Systems Alliance. Terra Firma is just a party in the Alliance that doesn't want alien infulences(but has been manipulated by Cerberus into a hate group.) Cerberus themselves are just a terrorist cell. For all intents and purposes, the revolutionizing you're talking about now, whcih is almost 200 years before ME's setting, has arguably already happened for them.

Besides, while the US is a lot nicer place to life than other places in the world, we're not so righteous. The nation has become little more than a hegemon who wages war with anybody with different beliefs than them. Confederates, Communists, Muslims. All while the Republicans and Democrats try to blame each other for all the problems with the nation itself. It's just a different color of the same crap. Pretty much every other nation and people in the world considers the US to be a bully, full of hateful and violent people who start wars with anybody they don't like. And they're right.

What the **** are you talking about. I wasn't talking about any of that stuff at all. What does what you just said have anything to do with what I said? 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:50 .