1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

And you are the judge whether humanity is ready? On which grounds? also, "we aren't ready" is an empty assertion. You never know if this is true unless you try it out. Yeah, likely we'll use any new technology for both bad and good things. That's just human nature. I find it delusional to believe that will ever change. All you can expect is that we learn not to destroy ourselves, because that's in everyone's interest, and even that will come late. If you expect cultural maturation before the technology we would mature into exists, you'll wait forever.  

Are you the judge either? I'll say on the grounds because nearly all of us on this planet cannot go a day without looking at or hearing about some kind of catastrophe. Or the wars we fight, or the genocides started, or the people who declare a holy war. 

It won't change. That's why humanity can never evolve artificially through these means. 

But I think we're different. Despite what I've mentioned, humans, in the western nations at least, are maturing and revolutionizing into something better. We learn to overcome our issues and use our technology responsibly. We haven't quite reached that threshold yet, but we will. Each advancing generation is one slow crawl to a better society. And when the time comes for us to understand the consequences of what would happen, including the positive to be strived for, then we will be ready.

I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from: consider nuclear technology. We came rather close to blowing our civilization up, but we didn't do it, and I'd say we learned something from the experience. Would it have been possible to learn that before we got the bomb? I'd say no. A theoretical future threat never has the same effect as an immediate one.

As I see it, should we aqcuire some alien technology, things will go the same way. As soon as we know what it does, it will be integrated into our politics and we'll learn how to deal with it. The only dangerous period is while we are busy acquiring the technical knowledge, only then could our ignorance cause a disaster. Being careful to the point of paranoia appears a reaonsable course of action. But that's not what you're talking about.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:51 .

[mass perfection]

fiendishchicken wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

How does the cycle continue in a new form?How does Synthesis kill diversity?How did we not earn it when the Catalyst said we were ready?

Why exactly does the Catalyst think we're ready for Synthesis? Why is the Catalysts problem even a concern for me? 

Because of how we're able to accept certain things.If we have low EMS then that means we obviously have less help from other races and we'll think "Those greedy asari/turians/krogan/salarian refuse to help with the war.We're going get them back".Also we need to be willing to accept synthetics into society.if Shepard chose to kill the geth then what does that tell the galaxy about them?What if Shepard chose the geth over quarians or made peace between them?If Shepard let them kill the quarians than that shows the galaxy that in some cases synthetics can be more trusting than organics.If we made peace then it shows that we can mae peace with synthetics.What if the galaxy knew that two of Shepards best friends was synthetic?They would think differently about them and will be more willing to accept them.You can't give people Synthesis and everything is all good.They have to be willing to accept synthetics and even other organics.

  The Catalyst's "problem" is a concern to you because everyone could be killed by synthetics.

I just proved him wrong at Rannoch, without achieving synthesis. I don't believe that the only solution to synthetics is synthesis. I believe the only solution to the Reapers is destruction. If the synthetics now have to die, sorry. I'm not doing it to kill them, I'm doing it to kill the Reapers. 

Why can't synthetics be a part of us in spite of our differences. The Geth and EDI have both proven that they are not cold, dispassionate machines. They are capable of reason, logic, and yes, emotion. They fully qualify as viable life of their own. I see what you're saying. And when that happens, when synthetics become a part of us as equals, why does synthesis need to occur? I don't see the need for it. We demonstrate that we're both working together and achieving a future together, what more is needed?

The peace isn't very stable.The leaders of the quarians are because of this.One wants to destroy the geth.One wants to control them.Oe is undecided.two want peace.In Control wedon't even see the geth quarians united.Sure they live on the same planet,but in different place.We don't see that in Synthesis.We'll eventually try to control the geth or destroy them or make some other race of synthetics and advance them to levels beyond us and attempt to control them which leads to them wiping us out and seeing organic as enemies and will try to wipe out all organics.

[mass perfection]

xsdob wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

xsdob wrote...

You do realize that high ems destroy is the one that takes the most ems, and not synthesis, don't you OP?

But whatever lies help make your point seem more valid, I guess that's just the sacrifice to make a good argument.

That's the ending Shepard survives.High EMS Destroy is the same exact thing as Shepard survives except Shepard doesn't survive and has the same EMS requirement form high EMS Control.

Does it, or does it not, take more ems to get the high ems destroy ending?

It does not.

[xsdob]

mass perfection wrote...

xsdob wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

xsdob wrote...

You do realize that high ems destroy is the one that takes the most ems, and not synthesis, don't you OP?

But whatever lies help make your point seem more valid, I guess that's just the sacrifice to make a good argument.

That's the ending Shepard survives.High EMS Destroy is the same exact thing as Shepard survives except Shepard doesn't survive and has the same EMS requirement form high EMS Control.

Does it, or does it not, take more ems to get the high ems destroy ending?

It does not.

You are lying. The higher ems endings make it so that you don't need to save anderson and can still get the best endings. It basically removes the last obstacle needed to get the ending and rewards it to the player for his actions from earlier in the game and the previous games.

You can try and claim they are the same, but the context that lead to those endings are different.

[fiendishchicken]

mass perfection wrote...
The peace isn't very stable.The leaders of the quarians are because of this.One wants to destroy the geth.One wants to control them.Oe is undecided.two want peace.In Control wedon't even see the geth quarians united.Sure they live on the same planet,but in different place.We don't see that in Synthesis.We'll eventually try to control the geth or destroy them or make some other race of synthetics and advance them to levels beyond us and attempt to control them which leads to them wiping us out and seeing organic as enemies and will try to wipe out all organics.

It isn't mentioned how the peace is going. I never saw any signs of instability. In fact, it looked like the Geth and Quarians were working in unison and getting along great. Geth were uploading themselves into Quarian suits and simulating viruses to improve Quarian immune systems. There's also the codex entries and the news nets. The Quarians were evacuating refugees while the Geth attacked Reaper forces. Tali herself says that things are improving remarkably between the two factions. The Primes on Rannoch even tell the Quarians that they are welcome to return with the Geth, and that they will honor Legions promise to assist with building the Crucible and facilitating future relationships with organics. It's never stated what the Admirals opinions of the Geth are after the Rannoch war.

Things are looking good. Until the Catalyst shows up and says 'nuh uh, you can't have peace with them unless you merge with them.'

[jstme]

BrookerT wrote...

jstme wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

All endings can be seen as different kinds of evils:
@Destroy is Genocide and murder
@Control is mass indoctrination committed by Shepard
@Refuse is the Reapers Winning because Shepard is too chicken do to anything
@Synthesis is the forced and invasive evolution of all sapient life in the galaxy

All are bad in some way, and yet all give hope in different way:
@ Destroy gives hope for a future free from the reapers and the pain of the past (geth invasion)
@Control puts Shepard in the role of benevolent god, and leads to hope to a society built on a stable structure where all have a voice
@Refuse shows how the next cycle wins triumphantly due to your actions in this cycle
@Synthesis leads to a future of infinite possibilities, a technological paradise with no synthetic/organic conflict

If synthesis is an abomination, then so are the other three, All ask you to defy your own morality in some way. You must accept that no choice is perfect, all are abominable yet all give some form of hope (even if you don't believe that hope should exist)

Synthesis is removal of all organic life in the galaxy. It is not "evolution of sapient life" simply because it effects ALL organic life that exists prior to synthesis,and does not exist after synthesis.
So while i agree to your approach that all ME3 endings were created flawed in purpose, synthesis is most horrible of them all. 

No more Organic Life? There is still organic life. Synthesis does not make every Organic and Synthetic an Hybrid. It gives every organic the ability to easily upgrade technology, the synthesis beam does not change the DNA it adds to it, you can see it in the EC. Synthetics don't suddenly gain skin and have babies, their still synthetic beings, but they now have human emotions, like empathy. 

The whole point of synthesis is that it allows organic life to easily "upgrade" itself, so it is never bettered by synthetics, and that syntheitc life will value a human life in emotional worth, instead of cold hard logic.

Adding to DNA is changing a genome. Organic life can "upgrade" itself really easily with tech stuff - wait for a few decades. There will be no need to add stuff into DNA? in order to get implants.
Not to mention that this is what glowing kid says himself:
"Add your energy to the crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. a new DNA." 
Notice "all organic life" and "new DNA" there?
It gets better:
"The energy of the crucible released in this way will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy..... organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology..... " Notice "all organic life,again.
"Synthesis is the final evolution of all life"
So tell me, this new framework,new DNA, that will be achieved by altering the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy and allow it to fully integrate with technology in order to get to final stage of evolution of all life - how if fits into what you describe? 
How digital leaves fit into it being there merely for ease of upgrading technology? Why tree needs to upgrade itself with tech stuff? 
I understand the need to headcanon in case of such vague space magic issue as green wave altering DNA of all living organic creatures, but it does not change the fact that you disregard part of what is the description.
All organic life in the galaxy is changed into something else on most basic level. It is no longer organic life.   

 

[mass perfection]

fiendishchicken wrote...

mass perfection wrote...
The peace isn't very stable.The leaders of the quarians are because of this.One wants to destroy the geth.One wants to control them.Oe is undecided.two want peace.In Control wedon't even see the geth quarians united.Sure they live on the same planet,but in different place.We don't see that in Synthesis.We'll eventually try to control the geth or destroy them or make some other race of synthetics and advance them to levels beyond us and attempt to control them which leads to them wiping us out and seeing organic as enemies and will try to wipe out all organics.

It isn't mentioned how the peace is going. I never saw any signs of instability. In fact, it looked like the Geth and Quarians were working in unison and getting along great. Geth were uploading themselves into Quarian suits and simulating viruses to improve Quarian immune systems. There's also the codex entries and the news nets. The Quarians were evacuating refugees while the Geth attacked Reaper forces. Tali herself says that things are improving remarkably between the two factions. The Primes on Rannoch even tell the Quarians that they are welcome to return with the Geth, and that they will honor Legions promise to assist with building the Crucible and facilitating future relationships with organics. It's never stated what the Admirals opinions of the Geth are after the Rannoch war.

Things are looking good. Until the Catalyst shows up and says 'nuh uh, you can't have peace with them unless you merge with them.'

harbinger considered the geth an annoyance.The Catalyst was talking about  how we would advance synthetics to the point where they were able to do all of our tasks and they would rebel because we can't control something more powerful than us.

[Eterna]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
It's not where you get the tech, it's how well you understand its applications.  Of understanding the potential risks and being able to handle them.  Throughout the trilogy we've seen examples of the dangers of rushing too far too fast without understanding what you're getting into.

Peak 15 and the Rachni
Project Overlord
Uplifting the krogan
The thorian
Paul Grayson
Leviathan of Dis
The accidental creation of the geth

All are examples of toying with something you don't understand, with inadequate preparation, leading to disasterous results.  Heck the mass relays themselves are a Reaper trap, designed to keep the galaxy dependant on technology they don't understand so the Reapers will have an easier time harvesting them. 

Yeah, and I hate that one-sided message almost as much as some people hate ME3's endings. *Every* attempt  ended in disaster, there are almost no positive examples except those needed for the main plot. Also, there's another message I hate even more: specifically those attempts fail which fall into the domain of the life sciences. There's one positive example: Miranda, and they hurry to invalidate that as well. 

You see, what those examples tell me is "be more careful", not "keep away". I will not accept "keep away". I can imagine a setup that would enable reasonably safe study of indoctrination. It is inconceivable that Cerberus and others are too stupid to do likewise.  

That's exactly what those examples are.  I never said "keep away" I said "know what you're getting into"  And Synthesis flies in the very face of that concept.

If you wait to understand something before taking a chance you may as well be saying keep away. 

[sunnydxmen]

synthesis is perfection best option.

[Iakus]

Eterna5 wrote...

If you wait to understand something before taking a chance you may as well be saying keep away. 

"There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that learn by reading. Those who learn by observation. And those who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

[Falaxe]

iakus wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If you wait to understand something before taking a chance you may as well be saying keep away. 

"There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that learn by reading. Those who learn by observation. And those who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

Best way is to do all of them!
Example:
"You and your friend are walking on a road, and there`s a field right next to you. Field is surrounded by fence and there`s a warning sign saying: "WARNING! ELECTRIC  FENCE!". You say to your friend: "Dude, I bet you dont have balls to ****** on that fence", wich he replies: "Oh, we`ll see!" He puts his pants down and fence gives him a nasty shock and you laugh your ass off. Your friend did not however die, so now he`s saying that it is your turn. Unfortunately, the spot where you throw your water is way more electric than the other one, so your dick fells off."

Modifié par Falaxe, 23 décembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[fiendishchicken]

mass perfection wrote...
harbinger considered the geth an annoyance.The Catalyst was talking about  how we would advance synthetics to the point where they were able to do all of our tasks and they would rebel because we can't control something more powerful than us.

When did Harby ever mention the Geth? 

Yeah. But the Geth were being treated as equals, and they were acting of their own freewill. They volunteered to help us fight. No one was using them as slaves. 

[kal_reegar]

synthesis lovers, don't you fear the reapers?

I mean, what do you think they are going to do next?
now they are a race in all respects... what will they be? Lonely and isolationist ike the geths? aggressive like the krogan and batarians? Every reapers for itself, with his own "race-personality"? So maybe we have crazy, violent reapers Yahg-like going around the galaxy?

How do you feel knowing that you put the galaxy future in the hand of the reapers and their good intentions?
They are on the top of the food chain now, like the Leviathans used to be. You put them in charge.They just have to reach out and take the power.

[TheProtheans]

Saren supported Synthesis when he thought it was the only option.
Your Shepard's picked it when there were other better options.

I know what Saren would do, who is really Indoctrinated?

[Sousabird]

Synthesis wouldn't cease conflict, whoever says that is stupid
People kill other people who are the same species, race, social rank
and basically exact same person for no reason so two different
synthesized species would probably still fight...

[Sousabird]

TheProtheans wrote...

Saren supported Synthesis when he thought it was the only option.
Your Shepard's picked it when there were other better options.

I know what Saren would do, who is really Indoctrinated?

No Saren favored submission, however that lead to him being synthesized

[Yate]

OPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

SPECULAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

[Iakus]

 Someone's been hitting the eggnog extra hard, it seems...

[Rifneno]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And shooting a random pipe and getting yourself caught in an explosion on the Catalyst's word that it'll destroy the Reapers is any more trustworthy? The Catalyst reminds you that you're half synthetic yourself and will die as well. If he were trying to deceive you, why would he tell you the correct way to destroy his people and his solution?

Plus Shepard only really dies in Destroy and Synthesis. In control, you're immortal. Body dissolves, but the mind integrates into the system.(The minds of the Reapers themselves are the organics processed to create them. So it's just a matter of where your mind is going) Shepard's survival in Destroy is dumb luck because the Crucible was intact enough so that the pulse was weak enough to not fry all his implants. And then there's still his organic parts keeping him alive for the time being.

Also after you make the choice, you're given a lengthy cutscene showing the crucible firing and the effects it has. Then Bioware added a free expansion(one that was probably expensive to make) just to give you the closure you wanted. Actions speak louder than words, and Bioware's actions say that all endings are real - they work.

Yes, it's clear by my sig that I believe shooting a giant baby terminator injection tube that's for some reason standing on its lonesome on the Citadel will kill all the Reapers.  </sarcasm>

Even if I sucked at paying attention enough to not realize everything after Harbinger's beam is too surreal not to be on purpose, it's obvious that Starbinger is trying to lead Shepard away from destroy.  He presents destroy as completely negative.  In fact, he claims it will eventually end in the extinction of all organic life forever.  Synthesis, he describes as sheer perfection.  Utopia.  Control?  A minute earlier if you took a renegade dialogue option, TIM (who you might recall the brat says "we already controlled") said the reason he's arguing for control is because he needs you to believe.  Starbinger is actively trying to appeal to your greed and lust for power with control.  Whether he says he "doesn't look forward to being replaced" or not, he IS trying to steer you toward that choice as well.

So let's sum things up.  Synthesis and control both: the main Reaper AI is trying to convince you to take these options, both of which require Shepard to use his toys to kill himself.  Destroy, which he tries desperately to steer you away from, requires Shepard to start breaking his toys instead of using them.  And Shepard can survive it.

Paying attention.  Control and synthesis pickers suck at it.

[ziloe]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
As to a data cache, it would make Synthesis less bad.  Butthe entire "force it on everyone and everything in the galaxy" is stll a major stumbling bloack

It is that. I don't like that aspect but I like the future Synthesis creates. I'm willing to let some things slide, but I wish the whole thing had been better designed and written from the start.

And agree with me then, that I believe synthesis leads to a future of something that would be truly terrifying. At least Reaper version of it anyway. If synthesis was to ever be possible, I'd want it on our own technological terms.

Bah. Human history is nothing but us taking the secrets and practices of others and making them our own, then improving on them. Doing so with the Reapers' technology is no different.

The mass effect technology humans use came from the Protheans, and down the line from the Reapers themselves. All modern technology in ME descends from the Reapers, right down to the implants keeping Shepard not-dead since ME2.

And yet, those were increments that built up over time. We weren't just magically thrust into a new age.

With Synthesis however, that new age is just dumped onto you. You just finished killing a massively coordinated, intelligent AI after months of it ripping your people apart, and now suddenly you're covered in that very thing you've grown to hate... do you really think you're just going to be, "Oh cool, now I'm just going to go on with my day,"? 

Forget what images you've seen in the extended cut, the reality wouldn't be as pretty. People would be scared ****less. Shepard is dead, he is not even there to be like, "Yeah, it's cool. Whatever, don't worry about it." And so all people know is that their loved ones have been turned into husks, the reapers are gone, and hey, now they look just like their loved ones, except its a less obvious change since their skin didn't totally deteriorate/mutate. And for all they know, the reapers just infected them as one last giant troll.

Even when they begin to understand their powers, it's simply too much to process, too fast. As Mordin said, it's like giving Cavemen nuclear weapons (whether they can operate it or not is not the point), people just aren't ready for that sort of responsibility. And if they were, we wouldn't have spent the last two games stopping people from doing horrendous things, i.e David in Overlord, etc.

[Shepard108278]

I am probably the only one who thinks synthesis is the best ending.

[Rifneno]

Shepard108278 wrote...

I am probably the only one who thinks synthesis is the best ending.

No, there's lots of others who didn't pay attention to the themes of the series.

[Shepard108278]

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard108278 wrote...

I am probably the only one who thinks synthesis is the best ending.

No, there's lots of others who didn't pay attention to the themes of the series.

don't speak of things you know nothing about synthedis fits in the series fine.

[ziloe]

Shepard108278 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard108278 wrote...

I am probably the only one who thinks synthesis is the best ending.

No, there's lots of others who didn't pay attention to the themes of the series.

don't speak of things you know nothing about synthedis fits in the series fine.

No one is arguing that point. The argument is that it's in actuality, a Reaper trap. They want you do to it, despite knowing how bad it would be. You just gave them all the power in the universe, and now they are free to act on their own. If they decided to attack again as a full force, everybody's dead.