132 réponses à ce sujet

[Ponendus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I never expected any of the choices I made to have a large impact, obviously that was impractical to the point of being basically impossible. I can't imagine what you were expecting. If anything, DA2 and the ME series far exceeded my expectations.

Plantiff, if you don't expect any impact or outcome of the choices, would you be okay with Bioware setting a canon story? Where the Warden was a Human Noble and Hawke was a pro-Templar?

I'm not sure this matters though. If we were allowed to keep the choice as to whether Hawke was pro-mage or pro-templar, it would just mean Hawke would never be able to be mentioned again in future iterations of Dragon Age, which I am fine with. I don't think they need to set a canon, just end the story at the end of the game, never speak of it again. I would prefer it that way personally.

Edit: to follow on from that, the whole thing could be referred to in future instalments as 'The Kirkwall incident' or something. NPC's don't need to go into specifics about Hawke, or who won, or who died.

Modifié par Ponendus, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[Rawgrim]

Ponendus wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I never expected any of the choices I made to have a large impact, obviously that was impractical to the point of being basically impossible. I can't imagine what you were expecting. If anything, DA2 and the ME series far exceeded my expectations.

Plantiff, if you don't expect any impact or outcome of the choices, would you be okay with Bioware setting a canon story? Where the Warden was a Human Noble and Hawke was a pro-Templar?

I'm not sure this matters though. If we were allowed to keep the choice as to whether Hawke was pro-mage or pro-templar, it would just mean Hawke would never be able to be mentioned again in future iterations of Dragon Age, which I am fine with. I don't think they need to set a canon, just end the story at the end of the game, never speak of it again. I would prefer it that way personally.

Does it even matter if Hawke was pro templar or pro mage, though? The game ended the same no matter what he was. Its not like him being pro or against one or the other would affect anything later on.

[Ponendus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Does it even matter if Hawke was pro templar or pro mage, though? The game ended the same no matter what he was. Its not like him being pro or against one or the other would affect anything later on.

Doesn't matter in the slightest. The point is there was an incident in Kirkwall, or a blight in Ferelden, there is no need to be specific about what happened in the future.

[Iakus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not saying that the choices would have no impact at all, just that the effect aren't as direct or immediate. The ruler of Orzammar would have a huge influence on Orzammar itself, but it won't behave quite the same impact as on the human lands. In a game set mainly in Orlais or Kirkwall, it's easier to mitigate those effects. Same as the ruler of Ferelden, the status of particular Circles, and so on. By moving from region to region, protagonist to protagonist keeps many of these chocies from being the "game changers" (harhar) that they might otherwise become.

In the line you quoted of me, I outlined exactly how, despite the next game being set in Orlais, the choices from previous games should affect the story. I'm not sure which of the things I stated would be easy to ignore...?

You did.  But it doesn't have to be a major change.  Note I said that the ruler of Orzammar can have some effect.  What I question is it having a major effect  there are several ways it can be dealt with.  A sidequest dealing with lyrium smugglers?  a different dwarven emissary with a different message?  A few lines of dialogue?  This will not be a game about dwarven politics or economics.  Unless we actually visit Orzammar, those will be peripheral matters at best.  Same with other choices made in the first two games.

[Icesong]

Rawgrim wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I never expected any of the choices I made to have a large impact, obviously that was impractical to the point of being basically impossible. I can't imagine what you were expecting. If anything, DA2 and the ME series far exceeded my expectations.

Plantiff, if you don't expect any impact or outcome of the choices, would you be okay with Bioware setting a canon story? Where the Warden was a Human Noble and Hawke was a pro-Templar?

I'm not sure this matters though. If we were allowed to keep the choice as to whether Hawke was pro-mage or pro-templar, it would just mean Hawke would never be able to be mentioned again in future iterations of Dragon Age, which I am fine with. I don't think they need to set a canon, just end the story at the end of the game, never speak of it again. I would prefer it that way personally.

Does it even matter if Hawke was pro templar or pro mage, though? The game ended the same no matter what he was. Its not like him being pro or against one or the other would affect anything later on.

Due to their reputation who Hawke sided with will lead to the masses being more supportive of that faction, resulting in 20 war assets.

Modifié par Icesong, 27 décembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[Iakus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Does it even matter if Hawke was pro templar or pro mage, though? The game ended the same no matter what he was. Its not like him being pro or against one or the other would affect anything later on.

Unlikely, given Hawke has disappeared regardless of who Hawke sided with (and endied killing both Orsino and Meredith)

Plus as yu noted, it seems that regardless of choice, the Chantry seemed convinced Hawke can somehow put things back together.

[Ponendus]

Icesong wrote...

Due to their reputation who Hawke sided will lead to the masses being more supportive of that faction, resulting in 20 war assets.

Does it have to? Why would anyone outside of Kirkwall care about this Kirkwallian person who got involved in some stuff that led to an internal conflict in that city? I am not sure that would inspire an entire nation to back that person up, they don't even know him/her.

[Icesong]

Ponendus wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Due to their reputation who Hawke sided will lead to the masses being more supportive of that faction, resulting in 20 war assets.

Does it have to? Why would anyone outside of Kirkwall care about this Kirkwallian person who got involved in some stuff that led to an internal conflict in that city? I am not sure that would inspire an entire nation to back that person up, they don't even know him/her.

Well, I was just joking. But we're told that people care about Hawke and use their name as a banner so can't really question it. I still sometimes wonder why anyone inside Kirkwall cares.

Modifié par Icesong, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:53 .

[Ponendus]

Icesong wrote...

Well, I was just joking. But we're told that people care about Hawke and use their name as a banner so can't really question it. I still sometimes wonder why anyone inside Kirkwall cares.

Ah,  I haven't seen that. I think if that is the case then that is disappointing, it means that choice will matter in future instalments and that development time will likely be wasted on creating two alternative paths. We will see I suppose.

[twincast]

@OP:
Short answer: No.
Long answer: The feature felt at home with ME, but I always thought they were overreaching by including it in DA. And even so barely anything ended up more consequential than a single line of dialog, if even that much, in the ME trilogy (which unlike the nonsensical ending (itself) I could actually stomach, but that's beside the point). And DA is as I said not only more complicated a task to begin with, but it's been continuously (and increasingly) plagued with bugged/FUBAR import flags (not to mention character deaths being treated as hearsay). So, I'd very much like them to achieve proper imports in DA3 even if I end up never playing it, but I have zero confidence in them being able to do so.

@BW:
Don't advertise a feature you don't have. You tried, you failed, you can't. Let it go.

Rawgrim wrote...

Abit off topic: But did Baldur`s Gate have that in the save imports?

Vanilla? A "full" import? No, just player character stats and inventory. Mods have added the same for stats/existence of party members and maybe some minor other stuff as well.

Modifié par twincast, 27 décembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[TEWR]

Considering DAII's corrupted save issue is still present for PS3 versions, no I do not have much hope for the save game import at this point in time.

Now, I would hope this would be one of the things talked about in the future when Bioware feels confident talking about DAIII.

[deuce985]

Bioware will mostly likely not do the traditional save imports. I'm guessing they will bring a screen up at the character customization and you pick all the choices from previous games. You'll probably have the option to skip this for the "default" choices. This will likely prevent any form of import bugs DA2 suffered by importing save files.  Seems like the easiest and most logical way for Bioware to continue our choices without major problems.

At this point, I highly doubt they scrap the import function completely. It would upset people who feel it makes a more personal story no matter how artificial your choices may seem. I don't think they'll have us picking EVERY choice from the CC. Most likely it will be only major choices. All the minor ones where you have interactions on quests with minor NPCs will likely be imported over by default. This would prevent people from complaining they missed a ton of content in ME3 just because they didn't play ME1/ME2.

I'm not really sure why Bioware ever thought import saves was a good idea. Is making the UI at the CC and picking choices a major technical hurdle? Wouldn't seem so...

On PC, you can just fix whatever import bugs you have in your save files(mostly). Console gamers don't have that luxury.

Modifié par deuce985, 27 décembre 2012 - 02:46 .

[Ponendus]

deuce985 wrote...

Bioware will mostly likely not do the traditional save imports. I'm guessing they will bring a screen up at the character customization and you pick all the choices from previous games. You'll probably have the option to skip this for the "default" choices. This will likely prevent any form of import bugs DA2 suffered by importing save files.  Seems like the easiest and most logical way for Bioware to continue our choices without major problems.

If it must be done at all, then yes I agree this would be a better way to do it.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I never expected any of the choices I made to have a large impact, obviously that was impractical to the point of being basically impossible. I can't imagine what you were expecting. If anything, DA2 and the ME series far exceeded my expectations.

Plantiff, if you don't expect any impact or outcome of the choices, would you be okay with Bioware setting a canon story? Where the Warden was a Human Noble and Hawke was a pro-Templar?

Not now that they've already said that they intend to import game choices. And I never said that I expected "no" impact, I said that I expected no "large" impact. DA2 acknowledged more than enough of my choices in Origins to satisfy me, and the ME series goes above and beyond that.

I was simply stating that I am more than satisfied with the amount of carryover in the series currently. That does not mean that I want them to do less importing, it means I want them to keep up what they're doing; sidequests and such.

It seems to me that people were expecting to be able to import entirely different world-states. That was obviously never going to happen. Any event that the player can affect the outcome of is, by necessity, less important than the ones that they cannot effect.  

Anyway, the "canon" in DA2 is that Hawke is perceived as being an anti-Chantry activist who deliberately engineered the events that ccured in Act 3. That was established early in the game. The "true" nature of Hawke's character and actions is not well-known, rendering it largely irrelevent.

The Dragon Age series has a canon, has always had a canon. Players can influence minor variables within that canon, but they won't affect the overall arc of the story. Apparently that bother some people. It doesn't bother me.

[Fast Jimmy]

Ponendus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Does it even matter if Hawke was pro templar or pro mage, though? The game ended the same no matter what he was. Its not like him being pro or against one or the other would affect anything later on.

Doesn't matter in the slightest. The point is there was an incident in Kirkwall, or a blight in Ferelden, there is no need to be specific about what happened in the future.

To be fair, it SHOULD matter - given the context that the population of an entire Circle could be butchered because of it. Remember, we are talking about a Mage/Templar war between (I believe) 9 Circles and the entire might of the Templar forces. For the Mages to be down one (or two, depending on DA:O's choice) entire circle(s) is no minor detail.

Plaintiff wrote...

The Dragon Age series has a canon, has always had a canon. Players can influence minor variables within that canon, but they won't affect the overall arc of the story. Apparently that bother some people. It doesn't bother me.

I agree it has always had a canon. I just feel the Save Import cripples the ability to reference this canon. Anders is always alive in DA2. As is Leliana. The Chantry has no further sway in the world, despite the possibility of a remarkable artifact that could help prove the very foundations of its religion. Dwarves appear just as removed from the affairs of men, despite an isolationist ruler or a ruler that encourages more trade with the rest of the world. Many in this thread expect the Dwarves to be a footnote to the Mage/Templar War, despite them (in certain games) controlling possibly the greatest military force in the world (a golem army after a decade of being built up). 

I think you misinterpret my desires, Plantiff. I don't want Bioware to make a custom game, perfectly built to my save game choices. I want Bioware to tell an amazing story with the setpieces they have already introduced... not to hide them under a lampshade at every turn and pretend like they don't matter. 

I want a game with lots of player choice... and then I want them to start clean on the next game, to tell the best story and to offer the most choice again... by saying "you made your choices in one game - but they will not influence the world we create for the next." 

I think the Save Import was a cool concept, but the execution of it is a mountainous, perilous and exponentially incessant wave that can never be fought back. I'd rather they said a world existed where the Anvil is destroyed in every game, than have a game say that Branka wasn't able to figure it out after the first couple uses. A world where the Urn was defiled, rather than a world where its never mentioned. A kingdom ruled by Allistair rather than one ruled by him and his Warden queen. 

In short - I want Bioware to not act like the world in the previous games just didn't exist. Whether that's demolishing the Save Import and setting a canon or biting a particularly nasty bullet and creating tons of custom content for all the possible choices... either way works for me. Its this riding the fence and slowly introducing retcons, weak illusions and tossing out entire plot threads just for the sake of Import consistency that is maddening.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 décembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[Icesong]

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

Modifié par Icesong, 27 décembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Icesong wrote...

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

They will never matter much across multiple AAA games.  Sorry.  Too much cost vs bennefit.

Better they make choices really matter per individual game then make choices only kind of barely matter across multiple, I say.  Done properly its not difficult to tie everything into a singular point at the end to leave themselves a good starting line for the sequel.  The Witcher does it, and thats really the series they should be focusing on most for inspiration imo. 

[Ponendus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Does it even matter if Hawke was pro templar or pro mage, though? The game ended the same no matter what he was. Its not like him being pro or against one or the other would affect anything later on.

Doesn't matter in the slightest. The point is there was an incident in Kirkwall, or a blight in Ferelden, there is no need to be specific about what happened in the future.

To be fair, it SHOULD matter - given the context that the population of an entire Circle could be butchered because of it. Remember, we are talking about a Mage/Templar war between (I believe) 9 Circles and the entire might of the Templar forces. For the Mages to be down one (or two, depending on DA:O's choice) entire circle(s) is no minor detail.

Yes, but need that major detail be explored? If we blow up one or two circles it may matter to the players mind, but it doesn't ever have to even be spoken about. It would only be a major detail if for some reason the writers wanted to insert a line like 'But Inquisitor! We are down on forces here because of x, y and z that happened x years ago!'. Hardly worth importing things for something as minor as that.

[Ponendus]

Icesong wrote...

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

'Matter' in what respect? Do you define 'matter' as being remembered and mentioned in future games? If so, fair enough.

But if by 'matter' you mean has an impact on the world right now, then this can be achieved even when eliminating imports. The mattering simply ends at the end of this instalment of the game, and continues on only in the players mind. Note I didn't say it 'never happened', just that it won't be ackowledged.

[Icesong]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

They will never matter much across multiple AAA games.  Sorry.  Too much cost vs bennefit.

Choices will matter so long as they don't set a canon. I don't want them to do anything with choices in subsequent games beyond codex entries. Anything beyond that I'd view warily as they'd probably do it badly.

Better they make choices really matter per individual game then make choices only kind of barely matter across multiple, I say. 

Better to preserve the sanctity of the player character and just develop other areas in your gigantic world.

[Icesong]

Ponendus wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

'Matter' in what respect? Do you define 'matter' as being remembered and mentioned in future games? If so, fair enough.

But if by 'matter' you mean has an impact on the world right now, then this can be achieved even when eliminating imports. The mattering simply ends at the end of this instalment of the game, and continues on only in the players mind. Note I didn't say it 'never happened', just that it won't be ackowledged.

I define "matter" as being possible within the canon.

I think we're in agreement, I just don't think they need to get rid of the import. The codex would benefit from it nothing else.

Modifié par Icesong, 27 décembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[DPSSOC]

simfamSP wrote...

I appreciate that they even attempt at doing it. So I'll shut up and enjoy it; not even older RPGs do this. The only other game that does this is the Witcher, and it has its flaws too.

The Ultima series did it too.  You could import a character from one to another keeping stats, class, equipment, etc.  It was easier in that the story didn't branch at all so they didn't have to follow individual choice, but they did do it.

deuce985 wrote...
Bioware will mostly likely not do the traditional save imports. I'm guessing they will bring a screen up at the character customization and you pick all the choices from previous games. You'll probably have the option to skip this for the "default" choices. This will likely prevent any form of import bugs DA2 suffered by importing save files. Seems like the easiest and most logical way for Bioware to continue our choices without major problems.

If they do this I'd hope they'd work it into the actual game somehow not just some check list at character creation. Something like KotOR 2.

[Ponendus]

Icesong wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

'Matter' in what respect? Do you define 'matter' as being remembered and mentioned in future games? If so, fair enough.

But if by 'matter' you mean has an impact on the world right now, then this can be achieved even when eliminating imports. The mattering simply ends at the end of this instalment of the game, and continues on only in the players mind. Note I didn't say it 'never happened', just that it won't be ackowledged.

I define "matter" as being possible within the canon.

I think we're in agreement, I just don't think they need to get rid of the import. The codex would benefit from it nothing else.

Alright, but there isn't really any difference between acknowledging past decisions in a codex and acknowledging them through dialogue. If you are going to do one you may as well do the other. 

I think that our decisions are documented in the codex of the game we are currently playing, why do they need to also be in future games? What is the purpose?