132 réponses à ce sujet

[Icesong]

Ponendus wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Choices don't feel as good when you know they don't matter.

'Matter' in what respect? Do you define 'matter' as being remembered and mentioned in future games? If so, fair enough.

But if by 'matter' you mean has an impact on the world right now, then this can be achieved even when eliminating imports. The mattering simply ends at the end of this instalment of the game, and continues on only in the players mind. Note I didn't say it 'never happened', just that it won't be ackowledged.

I define "matter" as being possible within the canon.

I think we're in agreement, I just don't think they need to get rid of the import. The codex would benefit from it nothing else.

Alright, but there isn't really any difference between acknowledging past decisions in a codex and acknowledging them through dialogue. If you are going to do one you may as well do the other. 

Dialogue is much more complicated than typing up some text.

I think that our decisions are documented in the codex of the game we are currently playing, why do they need to also be in future games? What is the purpose?

It's a codex, why not? You put backstory stuff in there. They can not do it, I don't care much, but it would be easy to do if they were inclined. 

Modifié par Icesong, 27 décembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Ponendus]

Icesong wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

I think that our decisions are documented in the codex of the game we are currently playing, why do they need to also be in future games? What is the purpose?

It's a codex, why not? You put backstory stuff in there. They can not do it, I don't care much, but it would be easy to do if they were inclined. 

Fair enough. I suppose it won't take much to flag those points. I just find it bizarre that people enjoy this so much and there so many other things that developers could be spending time on. I suppose what I'm asking is... what does one get from this? Is it the 'thrill' of seeing something you've done acknowledged in some way? Does it somehow better bridge the games together for you?

For me, and I know this is just opinion, it puts so much risk that something can go wrong, and that would be really bad for me. If I chose Anora as queen, I hate the thought that  Alistair will be on the throne. My personal view is that it would be better that the King/Queen of Ferelden is never mentioned, spoken of or involved, that way I and I alone know what happened back in Ferelden, and I can keep it that way.

Definitely not arguing or dismissing points of view, I'm genuinely curious about the appeal. It seems to be such a big selling point for people.

[In Exile]

Ponendus wrote...

Fair enough. I suppose it won't take much to flag those points. I just find it bizarre that people enjoy this so much and there so many other things that developers could be spending time on. I suppose what I'm asking is... what does one get from this? Is it the 'thrill' of seeing something you've done acknowledged in some way? Does it somehow better bridge the games together for you?

I think it's the idea that you're an active participant in creating the very world that you're playing. Even if it doesn't feature in the current game, the fact that you were there, in a sense, when Bhelen was made king and then that influenced the development of the dwarves over the next 50 years so that when there is a mention of their kingdom (however rare and fleeting) it's a return to glory rather than a continued fading away gives a sense of acomplishment.

Of course, many players want more than just that, and this is where you get a problem. A bigger one is tha Bioware never seems to say they won't deliver on that.

[BobZilla84]

A potental Save Import Feature for Dargon Age I is a touchy subject for me because as much as I would love a Save Import feature the sad reality is that the amount of variables from a complete Save game ready to import into Dragon Age I are just staggering especially if you take into account the possable DLCs as well as the decisions in the different games/DLC's.

I already know that the possability of most of the DLC decisions mattering is pretty low but they are there as variables that Bioware will have to contend with and then they are combined with the potental choices and decisions from the actual games "Origins/Awakening/Dragon Age 2" and you see the problem here.

I believe as so many have stated on this topic Bioware should go the route Kotor 2 did and allow the player to feel in the blanks during gameplay through conversations or something like that instead of worrying about a Import Save Feature.

And also in regards to Bioware making something's Cannon I am not the biggest fan of making cannon decisions in choice driven games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect say for example Alistair being made King of Ferelden is a very important part of Origins and if Bioware decides ok Alistair is officially King of Ferelden it's official. and everyone that didn't make him King will feel a disconnect with the game because they didn't make that choice and they are stuck with it.

[Iakus]

Ponendus wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Bioware will mostly likely not do the traditional save imports. I'm guessing they will bring a screen up at the character customization and you pick all the choices from previous games. You'll probably have the option to skip this for the "default" choices. This will likely prevent any form of import bugs DA2 suffered by importing save files.  Seems like the easiest and most logical way for Bioware to continue our choices without major problems.

If it must be done at all, then yes I agree this would be a better way to do it.

Agreed.

[Ponendus]

In Exile wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Fair enough. I suppose it won't take much to flag those points. I just find it bizarre that people enjoy this so much and there so many other things that developers could be spending time on. I suppose what I'm asking is... what does one get from this? Is it the 'thrill' of seeing something you've done acknowledged in some way? Does it somehow better bridge the games together for you?

I think it's the idea that you're an active participant in creating the very world that you're playing. 

Yes I suspect that is the appeal. When I think about it, I did find that fun when my decisions were acknowledged. I guess on reflection though, without that acknowledgement I still feel I contributed to the world I am playing. I, after all, know what happened in the past, and I did those things.

My issue is, if my choices are discarded and the 'writers canon' implemented, then the opposite occurs. I have now most definitely not contributed to the world I am playing, I contributed to a different one that I don't get to play.

I'll return to my Alistair/Anora example. If I chose Anora and the writers decided that Alistair is to make an appearance in DA3 as king, then disbelief is no longer suspended. I have lost any connection to my story I once had.

The solutions are:
a) The developers create scenes containing either Anora or Alistair depending on the player choice. This would mean that development time is put into creating content that a large group of people won't see, and restricts the ability to make the King or Queen of Ferelden a big role in DA3, due to the amount of time it would take to create both characters. They could only have say one scene, not the whole game.

Keep importing, but don't let the player make that  particular choice. This means that the writers can place Alistair in DA3, but I lose out on being able to make a cruicial (and arguably exciting and nailbiting) choice in DAO. This is unfortunate. It means that I can only make minor choices in the game, because of the 'import problem' potentially coming up later.

c) Remove importing, and don't mention the King or Queen of Ferelden. This is my preferred option. That way I get to know who is on the throne and how they got there, but there is no acknowledgement of it. This however also restricts the writers, because it means they can now no longer have that character in DA3. If they want to mention that character, they will have to do something like refer to them as 'the Regal of Ferelden' in order to remain vague. It restricts the writers but it respects the players and their decisions.

Are there other options? Possibly, it would be good to hear others thoughts.

[Icesong]

Ponendus wrote...

For me, and I know this is just opinion, it puts so much risk that something can go wrong, and that would be really bad for me. If I chose Anora as queen, I hate the thought that  Alistair will be on the throne. My personal view is that it would be better that the King/Queen of Ferelden is never mentioned, spoken of or involved, that way I and I alone know what happened back in Ferelden, and I can keep it that way.

I'm not envisioning writing that all leads to the same place, like the rachni decision. Anora would still be queen, they'd just be able to use her name, say what she did and answer some of the questions like Fast Jimmy posed; even if they don't necessarily need answered. Good flavor. Codex entries are able to be far more detailed and require far less resources. Plus the added benefit of being written from an in-universe perspective so nothing need be conclusive.

Again though, I don't disagree much, I've used this argument myself in different topics. Just applied to our characters. I do think it's better to not mention past NPCs much, if at all, but only for the sake of the world feeling like it's bigger than this core group of recurring characters. But they're theirs to use if they want.

I'm only saying that because imports exist. If they didn't know the state we left Ferelden in then I'd agree on total silence.

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Fair enough. I suppose it won't take much to flag those points. I just find it bizarre that people enjoy this so much and there so many other things that developers could be spending time on. I suppose what I'm asking is... what does one get from this? Is it the 'thrill' of seeing something you've done acknowledged in some way? Does it somehow better bridge the games together for you?

I think it's the idea that you're an active participant in creating the very world that you're playing. Even if it doesn't feature in the current game, the fact that you were there, in a sense, when Bhelen was made king and then that influenced the development of the dwarves over the next 50 years so that when there is a mention of their kingdom (however rare and fleeting) it's a return to glory rather than a continued fading away gives a sense of acomplishment.

Of course, many players want more than just that, and this is where you get a problem. A bigger one is tha Bioware never seems to say they won't deliver on that.

You hit the nail on the head. Beautiful exile, just beautiful.

[Get Magna Carter]

Personally I prefer not mentioning previous decisions to "overruling" them
If dragon age 3 doesn't mention who's king in Orzammar then I'm fine
If, however, it says that regardless of what the player decided, character X is now in charge (and the interval between origins and this reveal isn't long enough for the player's choice to feel relevent) then I won't be as happy
(where Character X could be Bhelen or a new character)
I am happy making decisions that affect the world, I don't need constant reminders

[In Exile]

Ponendus wrote...
Keep importing, but don't let the player make that  particular choice. This means that the writers can place Alistair in DA3, but I lose out on being able to make a cruicial (and arguably exciting and nailbiting) choice in DAO. This is unfortunate. It means that I can only make minor choices in the game, because of the 'import problem' potentially coming up later.

There's a better solution. To run with the Alistair example, suppose the Qunari invade Ferelden in DA3, and cull most of the landsmeet. Alistair and Teagan escape. When you meet Alistair, he can either be a Warden who happened to have been at court (with Warden talents gameplay wise) or he could be King (with unique dialogue).

So there is branching content based on who he was, and that gives you a few new lines of dialogue, but the only cost is VO (if you recycle the cinematics well) and you don't have to worry about things like branching choice.

The downside is that there will usually always have to be slate clearing choices. But that's a more natural way of solving the problem then going that Anora and Alistair govern the same way - maybe the governed differently, but it doesn't matter, because Anora gets her head on a pike anyway.

[Ponendus]

In Exile wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
Keep importing, but don't let the player make that  particular choice. This means that the writers can place Alistair in DA3, but I lose out on being able to make a cruicial (and arguably exciting and nailbiting) choice in DAO. This is unfortunate. It means that I can only make minor choices in the game, because of the 'import problem' potentially coming up later.

There's a better solution. To run with the Alistair example, suppose the Qunari invade Ferelden in DA3, and cull most of the landsmeet. Alistair and Teagan escape. When you meet Alistair, he can either be a Warden who happened to have been at court (with Warden talents gameplay wise) or he could be King (with unique dialogue).

So there is branching content based on who he was, and that gives you a few new lines of dialogue, but the only cost is VO (if you recycle the cinematics well) and you don't have to worry about things like branching choice.

The downside is that there will usually always have to be slate clearing choices. But that's a more natural way of solving the problem then going that Anora and Alistair govern the same way - maybe the governed differently, but it doesn't matter, because Anora gets her head on a pike anyway.

I agree, good post, that is another solution. If this were to happen, the choice itself would have very little impact though don't you think? I mean the effect of the choice is to have a few lines of differing dialogue in future instalments. I still don't find that to be worth it, but I understand if it is for some. 

The problem with it is that it still means the choice I make now, must be crafted by the writers in such a way that the choice doesn't create problems in the future. I imagine that would stifle creativity a bit, but I don't know of course. It would depend on the writers style I suppose.

[daft inquisitor]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DA2 is beyond recover...

Apostate Blood Mage Viscount Hawke.....naaaaaaah...they just use the default Viscount Hawke import

You have no idea how much I want to tell you to JUST SHUT UUUUUP.

But, that would be rude. 

By the way, I don't know WHAT you're talking about with a Templar-supported Apostate Viscount. In my playthrough, they never even knew I was a mage.  In fact, not a single person in the entire damn game did...

[daft inquisitor]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Varric know...he is the narrator....he even mention Hawke is apostate to Cassandra

To Cassandra, yes. But I meant nobody outside your companions knows. Cassandra only knows because someone WAY AFTER THE FACT told her.

According to the game, nobody outside my cadre of companions has any clue that I'm a mage, so they have no preconceptions about it being an awful, horrifying thing for me to do anything specific, like be the Viscount.

[Amycus89]

Ponendus wrote...

SNIP

a) The developers create scenes containing either Anora or Alistair depending on the player choice. This would mean that development time is put into creating content that a large group of people won't see, and restricts the ability to make the King or Queen of Ferelden a big role in DA3, due to the amount of time it would take to create both characters. They could only have say one scene, not the whole game.

Are there other options? Possibly, it would be good to hear others thoughts.

...And that is pretty much the problem Bioware seems to have been struggeling with save imports. Or even decissions overall. They don't feel very inclined to spend a lot of work that many users won't ever see, unless they make multiple playthroughs. Personally I prefer a shorter game that plays very differently depending on my actions, than a very long railroaded game, but I can still sorta understand the devs thinking, that it doesn't feel very cost effective with adding content that maybe only 50% will see. Not to mention that new customers to the series might feel discouraged to pick up DA3 if they feel like they are being "punished" for not playing the earlier ones.

I have posted one suggesion to solve this before though: http://social.biowar...0357/1#15321280

For those that don't want to click the link:

Amycus89 wrote...
One of my major dissappointments with the save imports in DA2 was that they changed barely anything. It barely felt worth importing the save at all. Now, I can understand that Bioware doesn't want to do too much content that others might not ever be able to see, or make new players to the series unable to experience any of the extra content at all. But at the same time it feels like at this rate, decissions from past games like the dark ritual that felt important, and should be important, just become footnotes in a future game, without even a decent sidequests that lasts longer than one conversation.

That's why I would suggest that besides having an import save data feature, the game should also have an option for a "randomized" save import. So any new character that is created enters a slightly different world than the last. This would solve a lot of problems, since it would enable new players to experience all that extra content even if they didn't play the previous games, it would make it possible to have choices from previous games have a larger impact on the world (since it would no longer be something that only a few will ever see), and thus also increases the replayability. No game would be like the last.

I think that it would at least be better than having just 3 pre-made savegames from DA:O to choose from at the character creation, like it was in DA2.

Modifié par Amycus89, 28 décembre 2012 - 02:24 .

[Wullo]

Personally, I hate savegame import. Not the premise with which in mind it was made, but the actual implementation.

When DAII came out, I had 3 different DA:O endgame saves ready to see what changes they will make.. well, tho it was nice to hear Bodahn mention the "Grey Warden Queen" it only made me smile, which could have been achieved in many other ways, really (like Ser-Pounce-a-lot returning *wink*nudge*)

But the bugs! ohgodthebugs.. Nate was alive and kicking at the end of Awakenings for me, but I never did get the Finding Nathaniel quest. I was quite surprised later when I saw my boyfriend meet him.. "Hey! Where did you get that quest?!"

Or my disappointment when King Alistair did not even mention the fact that the Fereldan circle was made (kinda)free by my MageWarden. (later I discovered that there is one extra line if a save with the mage boon chosen was imported.. but I did not even get that..)

I'm not sure I would be happy with Bioware setting a canon about my character.. that's the main thing for me. I don't want to hear people mention the brave young Cousland guy who saved everyone or the dashing male warrior Hawke, when in my universe it was a ruthless female mage who kicked the Archdemon's butt and LadyHawke the rogue who messed up Kirkwall. 

But setting canon for the king of Orzammar, or whether the Anvil was destroyed/Dark Ritual was performed or not is fine by me. In fact I would prefer if they did, so they can use those wonderful characters and scenarios they created/set up.

Modifié par Wullo, 28 décembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Icesong]

Wullo wrote...

I'm not sure I would be happy with Bioware setting a canon about my character.. that's the main thing for me. I don't want to hear people mention the brave young Cousland guy who saved everyone or the dashing male warrior Hawke, when in my universe it was a ruthless female mage who kicked the Archdemon's butt and LadyHawke the rogue who messed up Kirkwall. 

But setting canon for the king of Orzammar, or whether the Anvil was destroyed/Dark Ritual was performed or not is fine by me. In fact I would prefer if they did, so they can use those wonderful characters and scenarios they created/set up.

Those things are part of your character though. Who my character was led to them making the decisions they did, and the repercussions of one decision might affect a later one; if some other choice was made canon I'd have to change my character.

[Wullo]

I prefer to think of it as a compromise.
If my choices are experiencing the Dark Ritual story unfold (even if my character did not do it) or letting that plotline never followed up on (even if my character DID do it) then I'd rather have the first option.
In an ideal world Bioware would create an entire new storyline for those who refused the ritual, but let's face it, it's unlikely to happen.
And it's too interesting a storyline never to touch again..

Modifié par Wullo, 28 décembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[Emzamination]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

Hope is all I have to go on; I'm still hoping for an import fix for DA2 to recognize my decision to free the mages in DAO.

You can stop hoping. When Alistair tells you that the chantry denied the request, that's exactly how the game is scripted to react.

[MEBengal2008]

Importing a saved game will matter not for those of us who played DA and DAII on PS3 or XBox. Apparently EA/Bioware is holding off to release the next installment on the next gen system. If that is the case, we not be so lucky to import our games.

PC users would not experience this issue. That is why I'm glad I have the game on all three platforms; however, I do prefer playing DA on my PS3 on my 55" LED TV vs. a 22" LED monitor.
 
My question is to Bioware, how are you going to handle this situation, will DAIII be released on the current consoles as well as the next gen consoles or will we have to eat it crow and deal with this change?

This is not good business as most people are not going to throw $600+ for the new consoles when they are released.

[daft inquisitor]

MEBengal2008 wrote...

we not be so lucky to import our games.

Some of the Bioware people already came in and blatantly said that, even if the next game (or subsequent games) are on a different console, they're still going to make sure there's a way for our decisions to carry over. So, your argument there is moot.

Also, if you have a TV that will support it (most recent ones do), you can use an HDMI or DVI cable to connect your computer to your TV, and play your games that way...

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 28 décembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[In Exile]

Ponendus wrote...
I agree, good post, that is another solution. If this were to happen, the choice itself would have very little impact though don't you think? I mean the effect of the choice is to have a few lines of differing dialogue in future instalments. I still don't find that to be worth it, but I understand if it is for some.  

The trick is to make the choice matter [i]in the original game[i/]. TW2 is a great example. The Act I choice makes the game itself very different. But the choices you make, which feel significant (and have consequences later on) are all wiped clean by an event at the end of the game.

So this is how you get to have your cake and eat it too: the game itself has a narrow enough scope that you get branching content with consequences later on, and the end of the game wipes the slate in such a way as to prevent your choice from really counting and causing headaches.

As an example, consider if in DA:O the army battle wasn't all one thing. Bhelen and the dwarves lead an assault somewhere, and the King's company is masaccred. But the choice of King has already influenced a lot of attitudes in Orzammar (and the anvil will either always be there or not). Moreover, choosing Bhelen has him purge the assembly and nobles while he's still alive, so there's cultural reform even with him not returning and new King X there. 

That example isn't great because I just made it up on the spot, but that would be the idea.

The problem with it is that it still means the choice I make now, must be crafted by the writers in such a way that the choice doesn't create problems in the future. I imagine that would stifle creativity a bit, but I don't know of course. It would depend on the writers style I suppose.

I can't imagine it doesn't make it worse htan the hoop jumping they have to do now.