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[IntoTheDarkness]

In medieval Europe, would it have been possible for a fuedal lord to attack another lord, one with higher status as noble no less, and conceal his crimes afterwards? I find the story of human noble origin a bit hard to believe as Howe's treachery would have spread throughout Ferelden by his soldiers or the Warden. It is not possible to keep such a huge attack a secret even if there had been no survivors at all.

This, and Loghain framing wardens as traitors, felt contrived to me. People hushing up on Lohgain's betrayal is conceivable as he might simply be too powerful for anyone to confront him even if they all knew it's him who killed the king, but Howe is not as powerful as Loghain, and his attack on Highever would have made nobles to turn their back on him and his allies.

However, Lohgain grants him Arl of Denerim position, further antagonizing other nobles and ruining his own image as a hero, which makes me wonder why anyone even supports Loghain unless they appreicate getting poisoned and being replaced by Howe at Loghain's whim. Loghain should have just discarded Howe, have him assassinated at Denerim, and gathered nobles under his flag to punish Howe's force for the good of Ferelden. He needed a common foe to suppress a civil war but his nelgection of the blight threat and alliance with Howe only made him a common target to overthrow.

Anyway, back to the topic at hands, what plausible lies and political maneuvering did Howe use to convince nobles that his conquest of Highever during a war is justified? It's very hard to imagine, you know.

[Lord of War]

Howe was probably planning to frame the Couslands for something involving Orlais (I believe he calls the HN a traitor at their final confrontation?), but he didn't need to once Loghain took up the regency and needed allies.

[Blazomancer]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...




In medieval Europe, would it have been possible for a fuedal lord to attack another lord, one with higher status as noble no less, and conceal his crimes afterwards? I find the story of human noble origin a bit hard to believe as Howe's treachery would have spread throughout Ferelden by his soldiers or the Warden. It is not possible to keep such a huge attack a secret even if there had been no survivors at all.

This, and Loghain framing wardens as traitors, felt contrived to me. People hushing up on Lohgain's betrayal is conceivable as he might simply be too powerful for anyone to confront him even if they all knew it's him who killed the king, but Howe is not as powerful as Loghain, and his attack on Highever would have made nobles to turn their back on him and his allies.

However, Lohgain grants him Arl of Denerim position, further antagonizing other nobles and ruining his own image as a hero, which makes me wonder why anyone even supports Loghain unless they appreicate getting poisoned and being replaced by Howe at Loghain's whim. Loghain should have just discarded Howe, have him assassinated at Denerim, and gathered nobles under his flag to punish Howe's force for the good of Ferelden. He needed a common foe to suppress a civil war but his nelgection of the blight threat and alliance with Howe only made him a common target to overthrow.

Anyway, back to the topic at hands, what plausible lies and political maneuvering did Howe use to convince nobles that his conquest of Highever during a war is justified? It's very hard to imagine, you know.

Right, Howe's taking over highever seems to be a long shot. Unless I missed something, it is not really clear what he had planned to justify his attacking a Teyrn. But as Cyrahzax mentioned, he never really had to explain himself, as Loghain needed an ally. After declaring himself teyrn of highever, hardly any bann would dare to question him on his/her own. The only arl that could have challenged him was Eamon who was paralyzed soon after. Of course, in time, the bannorn could unite and challenge Howe, but I guess Howe had something planned for that.

But branding of the wardens as traitors is quite conceivable. Loghain is like a godfather to Ferelden, and it is obvious people would take his word for it. Even the abandoning of Cailan in Ostagar was not questioned by all nobles; most of them probably had no doubt that if Loghain abandoned Cailan, that was for some greater good.

Nevertheless, Some nobles did question his decision to declare himself the regent, and as such, he needed powerful allies to consolidate his regency. Howe being the second most powerful noble at that time, was the obvious choice. Worth noting that out of the five arlings, two southern ones were already destroyed by the blight. The Arl of Denerim had died in Ostagar, so what was left was only Eamon and Howe. Eamon was therefore put out of the way by poisoning as it was only he who could have opposed, and of course Urien's son Vaughan is stupid enough to be imprisoned in his own home.

Siding with Howe was a necessity for Loghain to strengthen his grip. But of course, I agree with you that he could have tried to unite the nobles rather than teaming up with Howe for power.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As for the framing, since Loghain knew the signal was lit at an inappropriate time to charge, he honestly believed the Wardens to be traitors. Presumably, he actually explained that to people off-screen, in which case the people he explained that to wouldn't have been able to come up with any other explanation either.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 décembre 2012 - 03:02 .

[Monica21]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
In medieval Europe, would it have been possible for a fuedal lord to attack another lord, one with higher status as noble no less, and conceal his crimes afterwards? I find the story of human noble origin a bit hard to believe as Howe's treachery would have spread throughout Ferelden by his soldiers or the Warden. It is not possible to keep such a huge attack a secret even if there had been no survivors at all.

This, and Loghain framing wardens as traitors, felt contrived to me. People hushing up on Lohgain's betrayal is conceivable as he might simply be too powerful for anyone to confront him even if they all knew it's him who killed the king, but Howe is not as powerful as Loghain, and his attack on Highever would have made nobles to turn their back on him and his allies.

However, Lohgain grants him Arl of Denerim position, further antagonizing other nobles and ruining his own image as a hero, which makes me wonder why anyone even supports Loghain unless they appreicate getting poisoned and being replaced by Howe at Loghain's whim. Loghain should have just discarded Howe, have him assassinated at Denerim, and gathered nobles under his flag to punish Howe's force for the good of Ferelden. He needed a common foe to suppress a civil war but his nelgection of the blight threat and alliance with Howe only made him a common target to overthrow.

Anyway, back to the topic at hands, what plausible lies and political maneuvering did Howe use to convince nobles that his conquest of Highever during a war is justified? It's very hard to imagine, you know.

Most of Highever's troops are gone when Howe attacks, and most of Howe's troops are at Highever. Certainly it's possible. You're trying to defend Highever with a skeleton crew of soldiers.

Duncan tells Cailan when you get to Ostagar something like, "had we not escaped he would have told you any story he wished." He might have blamed the attack on Orlais, as it's mentioned at least twice in connection to your family. Once when Eleanor is talking to her friend and another when Howe mentions something about your family being traitors. I'm sure he had a story ready.

As it is, yes, the true story probably would have spread but by then Howe would have already have arrived in Ostagar, been made Teryn of Highever, probably not died because he's squirrely like that, and taken up residence in your family seat. Every noble you talk to in Act III knows what happened, so your theory that it's a secret isn't justified. In Awakening there's evidence that Howe did not have the support of his soldiers in the attack.

Loghain grants him the Arling of Denerim probably because Howe is already in Denerim and has already imprisoned Vaughn. Howe also still has Amaranthine's troops and controls most of the Coastlands. Loghain needs someone whose sheer numbers can be a match if/when Eamon wakes up.

As for the nobles supporting Loghain, it did not escape your notice that Loghain's actions caused a civil war, right? Loghain doesn't have the support of the nobles, but he has the numbers to win the civil war, which is what he was doing before the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Monica21, 25 décembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He had some nobles. Howe mentions that the Bannorn is gathering its forces "as are your allies." I can't think who else that could mean.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 décembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[Monica21]

There's Bann Ceorlic, but he would have been Loghain's lapdog no matter what. I believe Bann Loren is also on Loghain's side. It's not that Loghain doesn't have support outside of Howe, he does, but not enough. I mean, you can lose the Landsmeet. The nobles, at that point, will support whoever will help them defeat the Blight, no matter what they think of Loghain's politics.

[gneisenau556]

What always made sense to me would be that Loghain and Howe planned it all before, but that was declared non-cannon.

[gneisenau556]

Faerunner wrote...

Howe doesn't take over Highever in secret. He lies, bullies and bribes the Bannorn into accepting it.

He also accuses the Couslands of being traitors, which in real life was a depressingly common way for medieval royals and nobles to get away with eliminating political rivals. National security is very important to most nations, especially those who just recently won their freedom and are constantly in danger of being re-conquered. like Fereldan to Orlais, so people aren't going to (outwardly) question someone who is defending the province's best interest. After all, if they question someone taking out a traitor, that must make them traitors too, right? (Herd mentality at its best.)

And people will listen to an Arl over a Teryn ?

[caradoc2000]

Dr Frank-N-Furter will take over both Transylvania and What.. erm High-ever.

[Monica21]

Faerunner wrote...
Even as a Cousland, I hear that Howe says words to the effect of "I managed to make everyone forget you" when you confront him. Clearly, the Bannorn doesn't care that much about the Couslands if they're able to put them out of mind so easily. Maybe Howe succeeded because the Couslands aren't as universally beloved as the game tries to make you believe when you play one.

Well, he may think that, but it's not true. Several occupants of the Gnawed Noble Tavern recognize you. After you actually kill Howe, at least two offer support in taking back the ternyr. Of course, that's because Howe's dead and there won't be resistance, but they do know you.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Faerunner wrote...

^ So they only remember you when you are standing right in front of them? I maintain that when you are not a Cousland, no one ever, ever, ever brings up your family. Not even as a reason they hate hate Howe or want Loghain gone. Out of sight, out of mind. It's pretty pathetic for how universally beloved the opening sequence tries to make out your family out to be.

EDIT: I'm not saying it was a complete mind-wipe situation, but they don't exactly trouble themselves about the recently slaughtered fellow noble family either. The opening sequence makes the family out to be even more popular than Andraste, yet I keep seeing countless posts on various forums from confused Cousland PCs wondering why no one kicked up a fuss after they died. I'm starting to think the answer is the Couslands are not as popular as the game wants you to believe. (For starters, only humans on your payroll and lesser noble family friends sing your praises).

If I may have a word...

The game is not actuality. It's only a writing oversight and attempts not to make other origin characters feel less important than the human noble that Coulands don't get mentioned as often as you expect.
I will be hesitant to call Loghain the best commander of Ferelden given his brilliant strategy *:?arcasm* in Ostagar, but nevertheless the game says so, thus it's true.

Before you dicover letters in Return to Ostagar DLC, Cailen doesn't always appear to be a bad king either. Richard the lionheart would have acted as Cailen did and he was ignorant in way of the politics and administrations, yet he pulled off countless victories with his bravery at battlefields. But the game says Cailen is a bad king so you have to believe it. If he were a super-duper swordsman like Richard I..... who knows what could have happened.

Anyways, DA:O is close enough to reality that we don't have major doubts about characters motives, and that's what distinguishes a good game from a bad game. What you are not content with sounds like a minor design oversight to me.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Faerunner wrote...

(For starters, only humans on your payroll and lesser noble family friends sing your praises).

And one of your social superiors, Anora. (Although she is in rather a subordinate position at the time.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

^ So they only remember you when you are standing right in front of them? I maintain that when you are not a Cousland, no one ever, ever, ever brings up your family. Not even as a reason they hate hate Howe or want Loghain gone. Out of sight, out of mind. It's pretty pathetic for how universally beloved the opening sequence tries to make out your family out to be.

EDIT: I'm not saying it was a complete mind-wipe situation, but they don't exactly trouble themselves about the recently slaughtered fellow noble family either. The opening sequence makes the family out to be even more popular than Andraste, yet I keep seeing countless posts on various forums from confused Cousland PCs wondering why no one kicked up a fuss after they died. I'm starting to think the answer is the Couslands are not as popular as the game wants you to believe. (For starters, only humans on your payroll and lesser noble family friends sing your praises).

If I may have a word...

The game is not actuality. It's only a writing oversight and attempts not to make other origin characters feel less important than human nobles that Coulands don't get mentioned as often as you expect.
I will be hesitant to call Loghain the best commander of Ferelden given his brilliant strategy *:?arcasm* in Ostagar, but nevertheless the game says so, thus it's true.

Before you dicover letters in Return to Ostagar DLC, Cailen doesn't always appear to be a bad king either. Richard the lionheart would have acted as Cailen did and he was ignorant in way of the politics and administrations, yet he pulled off countless victories with his bravery at battlefields. But the game says he is a bad king so you have to believe it. If he were a super-duper swordsman like Richard I..... who knows what could have happened.

He fights on the front lines despite not having a designated heir, and yet appears to be a good king? I adknowledge your point about Loghain's strategy (if Cailan charging out of cover was part of it) but I don't think you have a point with regards to Cailan.

[Monica21]

Faerunner wrote...
^ So they only remember you when you are standing right in front of them? I maintain that when you are not a Cousland, no one ever, ever, ever brings up your family. Not even as a reason they hate hate Howe or want Loghain gone. Out of sight, out of mind. It's pretty pathetic for how universally beloved the opening sequence tries to make out your family out to be.

Well, what other reason would there be to mention the Couslands? The only time you get a sense of any other origin story is in Orzammar, and that's only because what you're doing is because of what happened in the origin. As it is, why would a noble talk to an elf or a mage or dwarf about how awful it is that the Couslands aren't around? Your elf, mage, or dwarf doesn't even know who those people are.

As it is, they mention the Couslands if you are a Cousland, but no, they're not going out of their way to help you reclaim your ternyr. Not so much out of sight out of mind as might makes right. Howe has the forces to hold Highever (one might think) and the rest of the banns and arls are losing troops right and left and have to deal with refugees. As a Warden, you can't rule Highever anyway.

EDIT: I'm not saying it was a complete mind-wipe situation, but they don't exactly trouble themselves about the recently slaughtered fellow noble family either. The opening sequence makes the family out to be even more popular than Andraste, yet I keep seeing countless posts on various forums from confused Cousland PCs wondering why no one kicked up a fuss after they died. I'm starting to think the answer is the Couslands are not as popular as the game wants you to believe. (For starters, only humans on your payroll and lesser noble family friends sing your praises).

Well, they are as popular as the game wants you to believe (Bryce having enough support to challenge Cailan for the rule of Ferelden) but who has time to kick up a fuss? As soon as anything happens there's a war.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 28 décembre 2012 - 07:30 .

[Blazomancer]

No matter how much they pretend to be proud fereldens, every arl or bann is out for themselves. They would sell their own mothers if they could keep their own arling/bannorn safe. Most of these wouldn't have rebelled against the orlesians if the tide didn't turn in Maric's favour. Who has time to care who is the teyrn of highever? They would sooner let an Orlesian take the title of Teyrn of Highever than stand against injustice on their own. The only thing that could have brought Howe to justice is a king. Why would any noble raise their voice even if they are a little bit suspicious about the Cousland's plight, when they couldn't hide behind a king. Plus the blight at the doorsteps didn't do the matter any favour.

[Addai]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
In medieval Europe, would it have been possible for a fuedal lord to attack another lord, one with higher status as noble no less, and conceal his crimes afterwards?

It depends.  The nobles fought each other all the time, especially in the early medieval period.  Killing your rival, who was your liege lord forever and ever yesterday, was very commonplace.  Whether you could get away with it in the long run depends on how quickly you can establish yourself.  Howe profits from the chaos by taking over not only Highever but Denerim.  By the time anyone can do anything about it, he owns the entire North- the biggest ports, the capital- and the rest of the country has been significantly weakened.  The Cousland massacre was fait accompli, so without a king and with the other nobles consumed by Blight and then civil war, who's going to challenge him?  Loghain could have, but he needed allies.

[Monica21]

Faerunner wrote...
Everyone is gossipping about everything when you run around Fereldan. In every town, every human settlement, there are at least a couple of gossips discussing "rumours" that turn out to be true: The mage rebellion at the Circle, werewolves in the forest, Eamon being ill, Isolde sending knights to look for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, Orzammar shutting its borders, Loghain's desertion at Ostagar, the civil war, etc.

Yes, because those are all part of quests. It's a game mechanic. Even if people hated the Couslands they'd still be talking about them because it's something to talk about. The only person in Ferelden who has an interest in whether Howe lives or dies is a surviving Cousland. A Dalish Elf doesn't go to Highever. If Highever was part of a quest, there would be gossip.

To put things in perspective, the Dwarf Noble Origins says the middle sibling is the most popular of Endrin's children. When a Warden of any background goes or returns to Orzammar, this shows in that everyone talks about the older siblings' death(s) and most people hold it against Bhelen when they discuss his moral failings. (Essentially, "He's a dirtbag and a usurper because he killed his older siblings.") The Human Noble Origin also says the Cousland family is the most popular, yet no one so much as gossips about it or brings it up when they mention how much they hate Howe.

And no one goes to Highever, unlike every other origin that has to go to Orzammar. Any other origin dealings with Howe involve finding him in the dungeon and killing him to free Anora. He's portrayed as Loghain's lackey, which isn't really a very important plot point.

They don't mention the Couslands when a Cousland isn't standing right in front of them, so I think it's fair to say they don't care about the Couslands enough to mention them when a Cousland isn't standing right in front of them. I think "out of sight, out of mind" does apply to this supposedly popular family. (They mention Cailan when a Theirin isn't standing right in front of them, so that should tell you something.)

I think it's fair to say that there's a Landsmeet, most of them have been fighting the civil war, the blight, or both, and the Couslands are dead. What reason could they possibly have to make idle conversation about a noble family that's been dead for nearly a year? And, uh, Cailan was the king and a significant part of the plot for every origin.

Yeah, the same people that supposedly loved Bryce enough to believe he should have been king over Maric or Cailan (which I call bullsh!t on, since Theirins have ruled Fereldan for centuries, "Rebel Queen" Moira and Maric actually led the rebellion against Orlais whereas Bryce merely fought in it, and the person who tells you this is a lowly squire and the son of a family friend who could just be kissing up) could not bother to be outraged when he's brutally murdered and usurped at the hands of Howe. The way they express outrage over Cailan supposedly being brutally murdered and usurped at the hands of Loghain. Yeah, I believe that.

And?

Again, most everyone has time to mention things not directly connected with the civil war, but apparently no one has time to mention the Couslands. Most everyone at the Gnawed Noble Tavern can spit hate at Howe and Loghain over a wide variety of issues, but adding the slaughter of the Couslands on the list of things to complain about? Too much effort. It really shows how "popular" this family is.

Yes, they are mentioning plot points. Plot points that affect every origin. The Couslands are only a plot point to a Cousland.

Modifié par Monica21, 29 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[TEWR]

Yeah, the same people that supposedly loved Bryce enough to believe he should have been king over Maric or Cailan

Only Cailan, and that was cause Bryce was more qualified for a job like that then Cailan would've been.

could not bother to be outraged when he's brutally murdered and usurped at the hands of Howe. The way they express outrage over Cailan supposedly being brutally murdered and usurped at the hands of Loghain. Yeah, I believe that.

You can hear a few soldiers of Howe's talking about how the people of Highever resent Howe's presence there, to the point that the soldier is glad looks cannot kill.

Sister Petrine says in the Highever codex that the Cousland family's future is uncertain and that Howe took over under suspicious circumstances.

Though that's putting it mildly, it showcases that not everyone is willing to believe the Couslands were traitors.