163 réponses à ce sujet

[andrew688k]

Language evolves in different ways, they are all unique.
Deal with it.

[prog_bassist]

Koenig888 wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

Koenig888 wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

But to remove your ignorance, Chinese (usually) means Mandarin, which is a separate language from Cantonese, etc. There are many other languages in China, they are not dialects, in fact Dutch and German are more intelligible than many of them.

Standard Chinese is based on the Mandarin dialect.  Cantonese is also a dialect.  There are in fact many different Chinese dialects in China and these frequently indicate the region the speaker is from.

Cantonese is not a dialect, it is a separate language. Dialect is more a political designation than anything else. Norwegian and Swedish are called separate languages but are far, far more mutually intelligible than Cantonese and Mandarin are. They are referred to as dialects for political reasons. Mandarin has 4 tones and Cantonese has 8, 4 entire tones that distinguish it phonologically from Mandarin. It is a different language.

According to Wikipedia, Cantonese has 6, 7 or 9 tones (http://en.wikipedia....onese_phonology).  Personally, i have never counted the number of tones since I grew up speaking Cantonese and it all came rather naturally.  A couple of extra tones does not make Cantonese a separate language.  It is a dialect.

It's not just a few extra tones though.  The grammar is not entirely the same as it is with Mandarin, and a lot of words are used "incorrectly", from a Mandarin standpoint, to phonetically match the language.  

Also, I can't read most of the words in this thread.  Blame my American upbringing.

Modifié par prog_bassist, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[iOnlySignIn]

廣東話和國語當然是不同的語言.

Koenig888不懂裝懂.

Also "Drell" sounds more like 拽 than 抓 to me. But again, I'm good at 拽.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Stardusk]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

廣東話和國語當然是不同的語言.

Koenig888不懂裝懂.

Also "Drell" sounds more like 拽 than 抓 to me. But again, I'm good at 拽.

Do weigh in here, Lord of Caltech, as one of the few reasonable native Mandarin speakers I know who does not defend an antiquated writing system with silly cultural arguments. Would not Chinese be better off with an alphabet?

[andrew688k]

Calling Cantonese a dialect is incorrect, the spoken language and grammar are very different from Cantonese and mandarin, all they share are merely words. And now since china are using simplified, mandarin and (Hong Kong) Cantonese are quite different.
And to me, of course Cantobese sound more good to me, rumors say that it is the to-be official language of China.

[Stardusk]

andrew688k wrote...

Language evolves in different ways, they are all unique.
Deal with it.

Language evolution is NOT the same thing as evolution of writing, in fact writing is not language at all, if it were the number of performance errors we encounter daily in writing but only rarely in spoken language would not surface as frequently as they do.

[iOnlySignIn]

Stardusk wrote...

Do weigh in here, Lord of Caltech, as one of the few reasonable native Mandarin speakers I know who does not defend an antiquated writing system with silly cultural arguments. Would not Chinese be better off with an alphabet?

當然了.

字母表最重要的功能是能夠縮短語言學習的時間. 如果中文字母化, 中國人的識字率會立刻提高, 但同時會節省一大部份教育資源. 節約出的資源可以用來教授一些實際上更有意義的技能, 比如數學.

如果要從文化上來講, 中國現代白話文是不存在甚麼有價值的文學的. 應當學古漢語才對. 古漢語應當作一門藝術來學, 而不是一個實際應用的語言.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Stardusk]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

Do weigh in here, Lord of Caltech, as one of the few reasonable native Mandarin speakers I know who does not defend an antiquated writing system with silly cultural arguments. Would not Chinese be better off with an alphabet?

當然了.

字母表最重要的功能是能夠縮短語言學習的時間. 如果中文字母化, 中國人的識字率會立刻提高, 但同時會節省一大部份教育資源. 節約出的資源可以用來教授一些實際上更有意義的技能, 比如數學.

This among other things. I always hated the fact that I was so unskilled at mathematics.

[Koenig888]

prog_bassist wrote...

It's not just a few extra tones though.  The grammar is not entirely the same as it is with Mandarin, and a lot of words are used "incorrectly", from a Mandarin standpoint, to phonetically match the language. 

True. It was quite an adjustment for me to read Cantonese publications from Hong Kong since my education in Chinese is Mandarin-based.

[DHKany]

Stardusk wrote...

himegoto wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

BoneCarlos Lee wrote...

這裡還能遇到臺灣人啊，真好。有機會一起玩吧。
It's nice to see people from Taiwan, let's play together.

可以加我好友 VeloricSurkesh (PC的). 我只會打到白銀就是了..
My ID is VeloricSurkesh, feel free to add me if you're playing on PC platform. I'm a silver player, though. Can't play on any higher difficulties.

<質量效應>不只是遊戲。它就是這樣的一個～效應，把全世界聯結在一起。這就是好遊戲的威能
You see? Mass Effect is not just a game. It is an, well, effect. One that brings Earth together. That is the strength of a good game's community.

Now, once the Chinese decide to develop an alphabet the earth will truly be together.

Despite Chinese letters being logograph, it is fairly easy to recognize. Due to many letters being hieroglyphs, or a combination of pictograms, ideograms, radical hints.. and so forth. I have a much easier time speed reading in Chinese than in English.

Of course there's also the Pinyin. Which I still haven't got the slighest grasp.

Yes, easier to read. That is about the only argument I ever hear trotted out. If the Chinese logographic system were so efficient Korean and Vietnamese would still be using it and Mainland China would not have developed simplified characters. It is archaic and fossilised. It is moreover only easy to recognise if you know hundreds if not thousands of radicals. In English or Korean, if you are learning either, and hear the word apple you will have an idea as to how it is written. In Chinese it is impossibe becaues there is no relationship between the word and the ideogram, beyond having memorised it at some point.

Korean <3
Am learning chinese too atm, but it feels like such a grind. 

[iOnlySignIn]

Stardusk wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

Do weigh in here, Lord of Caltech, as one of the few reasonable native Mandarin speakers I know who does not defend an antiquated writing system with silly cultural arguments. Would not Chinese be better off with an alphabet?

當然了.

字母表最重要的功能是能夠縮短語言學習的時間. 如果中文字母化, 中國人的識字率會立刻提高, 但同時會節省一大部份教育資源. 節約出的資源可以用來教授一些實際上更有意義的技能, 比如數學.

This among other things. I always hated the fact that I was so unskilled at mathematics.

如果要從文化上來講, 中國現代白話文是不存在甚麼有價值的文學的. 應當學古漢語才對. 古漢語應當作一門藝術來學, 而不是一個實際應用的語言.

[Cricketer15]

Stardusk wrote...

andrew688k wrote...

Language evolves in different ways, they are all unique.
Deal with it.

Language evolution is NOT the same thing as evolution of writing, in fact writing is not language at all, if it were the number of performance errors we encounter daily in writing but only rarely in spoken language would not surface as frequently as they do.

you lots must be bored. Stop arguing who cares what one think don't get off from the main topic that drells do infact sounds like that.

[iOnlySignIn]

DHKany wrote...
Am learning chinese too atm, but it feels like such a grind. 

學講普通話是有用的. 學寫漢字是純粹浪費時間. 

[Koenig888]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

字母表最重要的功能是能夠縮短語言學習的時間. 如果中文字母化, 中國人的識字率會立刻提高, 但同時會節省一大部份教育資源. 節約出的資源可以用來教授一些實際上更有意義的技能, 比如數學.

There is more to life than just efficiency.  The Chinese language is part of the culture of the Chinese people. 

[DedValve]

Frickle fargle largle.

Garble, garble.

[Stardusk]

DHKany wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

himegoto wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

BoneCarlos Lee wrote...

這裡還能遇到臺灣人啊，真好。有機會一起玩吧。
It's nice to see people from Taiwan, let's play together.

可以加我好友 VeloricSurkesh (PC的). 我只會打到白銀就是了..
My ID is VeloricSurkesh, feel free to add me if you're playing on PC platform. I'm a silver player, though. Can't play on any higher difficulties.

<質量效應>不只是遊戲。它就是這樣的一個～效應，把全世界聯結在一起。這就是好遊戲的威能
You see? Mass Effect is not just a game. It is an, well, effect. One that brings Earth together. That is the strength of a good game's community.

Now, once the Chinese decide to develop an alphabet the earth will truly be together.

Despite Chinese letters being logograph, it is fairly easy to recognize. Due to many letters being hieroglyphs, or a combination of pictograms, ideograms, radical hints.. and so forth. I have a much easier time speed reading in Chinese than in English.

Of course there's also the Pinyin. Which I still haven't got the slighest grasp.

Yes, easier to read. That is about the only argument I ever hear trotted out. If the Chinese logographic system were so efficient Korean and Vietnamese would still be using it and Mainland China would not have developed simplified characters. It is archaic and fossilised. It is moreover only easy to recognise if you know hundreds if not thousands of radicals. In English or Korean, if you are learning either, and hear the word apple you will have an idea as to how it is written. In Chinese it is impossibe becaues there is no relationship between the word and the ideogram, beyond having memorised it at some point.

Korean <3
Am learning chinese too atm, but it feels like such a grind. 

Skip Chinese and learn Korean. You can teach yourself the alphabet in 1-2 hours and that is it. The grammar is significantly more complex than Chinese (though both have classifers as is often the case with East Asian languages) but the fact that you never struggle with reading and writing the way you do with Chinese will make it worth it.

[Cricketer15]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

DHKany wrote...
Am learning chinese too atm, but it feels like such a grind. 

學講普通話是有用的. 學寫漢字是純粹浪費時間. 

learning Chinese is useful? Learning is something something time.? 

Manage to translate that much lol Chinese is one of 7 language I'm learning Atm. can speak it fluently though 

Modifié par Cricketer15, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:47 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Koenig888 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

字母表最重要的功能是能夠縮短語言學習的時間. 如果中文字母化, 中國人的識字率會立刻提高, 但同時會節省一大部份教育資源. 節約出的資源可以用來教授一些實際上更有意義的技能, 比如數學.

There is more to life than just efficiency.  The Chinese language is part of the culture of the Chinese people. 

中文和漢字是不同的概念. 中文不需要漢字. 如果我們要保持最古老最純粹的文化, 那乾脆用甲骨文好了.

保持文化不等於排斥進步. 但是許多中國人不懂這個道理.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[Stardusk]

Koenig888 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

字母表最重要的功能是能夠縮短語言學習的時間. 如果中文字母化, 中國人的識字率會立刻提高, 但同時會節省一大部份教育資源. 節約出的資源可以用來教授一些實際上更有意義的技能, 比如數學.

There is more to life than just efficiency.  The Chinese language is part of the culture of the Chinese people. 

LOL. And this is the only argument you will hear from people because they have no real arguments, other than cultural ones.

Up until 1446 漢文 were part of Korean culture as well; they got rid of it in time and it was the intelligent thing to do. If Chinese ever seeks to become globally competetive in the sense that English is, it will only come about by a full adoption of an alphabet.

[andrew688k]

我們應該寫中文, 不然biower會把這鎖了
Do not translate it plz.

[andrew688k]

Drell...
庶？
蕉？

[iOnlySignIn]

蕉比抓準.

但我覺得拽最好.

拽滲透者

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:49 .

[Koenig888]

Stardusk wrote...

Do weigh in here, Lord of Caltech, as one of the few reasonable native Mandarin speakers I know who does not defend an antiquated writing system with silly cultural arguments. Would not Chinese be better off with an alphabet?

"silly" cultural arguments?  No wonder you cited Hannas.

[prog_bassist]

andrew688k wrote...

我們應該寫中文, 不然biower會把這鎖了
Do not translate it plz.

And ib4l.

[Stardusk]

Koenig888 wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

Do weigh in here, Lord of Caltech, as one of the few reasonable native Mandarin speakers I know who does not defend an antiquated writing system with silly cultural arguments. Would not Chinese be better off with an alphabet?

"silly" cultural arguments?  No wonder you cited Hannas.

Cultural arguments are arguments from emotion usually, hence why they are silly. Realy arguments are based on efficiency and convincing argumentation. If what you claimed were valid we would all still be writing cuniform irrrespective of our language because culturally it is the oldest form of writing.

Modifié par Stardusk, 26 décembre 2012 - 01:57 .