394 réponses à ce sujet

[Reizo Ryuu]

GallowsPole wrote...

Show me your degree in development, and Ill be quiet.
As far as people on the Internet calling me a moron, I guess I should just shoot myself cause the pain is unbearable.

I never like to go there, But I have BA in Gamedesign and Development....soooooo be quiet now? 

[GallowsPole]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...
 Again, please let me know why every developer has this mechanic if it was intentional and not maybe, just maybe, its simply that way cause it has to BE that way and it coincidentally assists the gamer.

Just..wow..

It doesn't coincidentally do anything, as I mentioned before, it is completely intentional to not restrict player mobility; those are decisions that will forge your gameplay and designers have entire meetings centered around them, followed by playtests, retooling, tweaking of even complete reworkings.

Being able to cancel the animation does assist the player, but it's the result of an intentional decision to allow to player to do so, whatever the reasoning behind it could be is not important.

Reload canceling specifically is obviously not outside the realm of an intentional hidden mechanic because the game registers the reload before the animation is done; do you honestly believe testing something intended (animation canceling) wouldn't result into realising the reload could be canceled specifically because the game registers ammo early?

If it wasn't intended any designer would let the ammo register only after the animation is fully completed, and since gears does it that way, and ME3 is on the same engine, it clearly doesn't have to BE that way and is conscious decision made by the designers.

I will give you that the way ME developers USED the mechanic was intentional. That still doesn't explain as to why it even exists in the first place. That is what Im arguing. Cancel reload was not intentionally put there. It was a necessary evil of how the game must be made, and I will give you that as a result, ME developers utilized it to say hey, look what we did for you.

Modifié par GallowsPole, 26 décembre 2012 - 11:45 .

[Zero132132]

Vilyn117 wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

If that's the case, why did the devs code the time where a weapon reloads and the time at which the animation ends as separate things?

Could have been for many reasons, a simple one being to show that when you pop in the clip, it shows it onscreen also, could also have been for editing gun balance, since certain guns reload at different speeds. It's pretty clear that it's poor game design and a glitch, since it's not consistent, and always requires you to do something stupid to make it work. Next youre all gun tell me the havoc strike melee dual attack is intended also.

Editing in for gun balance makes no sense. They can do that with a general reload animation.

As for making the clip show up on screen as its loaded into the gun, that's absolutely unnecessary. I could see that being the case for the first game or two that had reload cancelling, but they already had RCing in ME2, and if they didn't intend for it to be in the game, the simplest thing ever is to just have the bullets ready to fire after the animation is over with. Otherwise, you introduce the exact possibility that exists in this game; the ability to cancel the reload animation before its done but still reload.

Basically, if it's a glitch, then it's one that they knew about in a previous title in the same exact series and that they coded specific events around. If it's a glitch, it's intentional, and you'd have to be a fool to think it isn't.

[kaileena_sands]

 Wow, this topic again? Why are people so butthurt over reload cancelling? Is the next topic I am going to see be about nova cancelling, too? 

This is a legitimate question btw, I want to know the motivation of people behind constantly having cheese and whine over it. I can think of two reasons:

1. They suck terribly and cannot do it.

2. They can do it, but for somehow consider themselves too... "honourable" for doing such things and as such kind of people often do, they want to shove their own opinions in other people's mouths. 

Modifié par kaileena_sands, 26 décembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[billpickles]

whywhywhywhywhywhywhywhywhywhyWHY do we have to keep rehashing this topic?

It' not a "cheat" or a "glitch" or an "exploit".

Each gun has a specific value that determines when the reload is complete and that is separate from when the animation is complete. This has been confirmed by the developers multiple times as intentional, including by the one who actually put the values in herself.

The player is under no obligation to sit there and watch the rest of the animation. There are multiple options for cancelling it. Again, this is confirmed to be an INTENDED MECHANIC.

People who keep b!tching and moaning about this just sound like jealous WHINERS who are upset because they got outscored by someone who is more skilled at this and other gameplay mechanics. This mechanic is clearly here to stay, so just move on please. Your options are thus:

1. Learn to do it yourself.
2. Don't do it and just be content with your current level of play.
3. Keep WHINING and looking like an idiot.

Which of the above options do you feel will lead to the greatest life satisfaction? 'Cause I gotta tell you...option 3 sounds like it's for people who just like to be miserable.

[.458]

Reload cancel is a side effect of the  game's internal design. Messages are passed during a reload to different components, some of which have an effect over time. Each of those components also has a cancel ability. People are choosing cancel after the reload of ammo timer is complete, but before the animation timer is complete...thus it cancels only an animation. My guess is that they did it this way as a kind of distributed computing aid...when done this way, components do not care where the source of an event (such as reload or cancel) come from...local keyboard or network. An aid to simplifying multiplayer design starting with a single player design. Side effects can be rather unpleasant, and is the fundamental source of the missile glitch exploit. So it was a design tradeoff, and not a "feature". Without the time delays of a network you could still reload cancel, but a human would not be fast enough to exploit this for a missile glitch. I'd also have to guess from experience that they had limited time and resources and had to get a working version going without time for the "best" design.

I believe the reason why BW made this a non-exploit is because it does not interfere with normal operation...cancel of any component is considered normal and does not alter its designed behavior. Injecting a missile setting into a weapon change of a non-missile weapon alters behavior.

Modifié par .458, 26 décembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[Reizo Ryuu]

GallowsPole wrote...

I will give you that the way ME developers USED the mechanic was intentional. That still doesn't explain as to why it even exists in the first place. That is what Im arguing. Cancel reload was not intentionally put there. It was a necessary evil of how the game must be made, and I will give you that as a result, ME developers utilized it to say hey, look what we did for you.

Except it isn't, did you not bother to read what you quoted me for?
They could've easily chosen for the ammo not to register until the animation has completed, but they didn't.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Some1 really need this

[GallowsPole]

kaileena_sands wrote...

 Wow, this topic again? Why are people so butthurt over reload cancelling? Is the next topic I am going to see be about nova cancelling, too? 

This is a legitimate question btw, I want to know the motivation of people behind constantly having cheese and whine over it. I can think of two reasons:

1. They suck terribly and cannot do it.

2. They can do it, but for somehow consider themselves too... "honourable" for doing such things and as such kind of people often do, they want to shove their own opinions in other people's mouths. 

Well no. Its not honor. Its self immersion. That's all. I neither suck or think it is honorable Simply unrealistic. And as everyone mostly pointed out, reload cancelling 'rewards' the player for using it. And its usually a big reward. So I just think its cheap. I could care less who uses it or not. I care about the realism of the game (for what is is for a sci fi shooter), but still I like to hear that click and the shotgun reload before I use it.

Just my opinion. While everyone is claiming how great they are and they are using this or spawn nuking in the name of getting the game done faster YET post high scores and say everyone else sucks, than I have the right to say well yeah. Using cheap ass tactics I could outscore anyone too.

[cowwy]

GallowsPole wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

 Wow, this topic again? Why are people so butthurt over reload cancelling? Is the next topic I am going to see be about nova cancelling, too? 

This is a legitimate question btw, I want to know the motivation of people behind constantly having cheese and whine over it. I can think of two reasons:

1. They suck terribly and cannot do it.

2. They can do it, but for somehow consider themselves too... "honourable" for doing such things and as such kind of people often do, they want to shove their own opinions in other people's mouths. 

Well no. Its not honor. Its self immersion. That's all. I neither suck or think it is honorable Simply unrealistic. And as everyone mostly pointed out, reload cancelling 'rewards' the player for using it. And its usually a big reward. So I just think its cheap. I could care less who uses it or not. I care about the realism of the game (for what is is for a sci fi shooter), but still I like to hear that click and the shotgun reload before I use it.

Just my opinion. While everyone is claiming how great they are and they are using this or spawn nuking in the name of getting the game done faster YET post high scores and say everyone else sucks, than I have the right to say well yeah. Using cheap ass tactics I could outscore anyone too.

That's one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard. If it's self immersion you want then don't complain about others using it. And saying that you can be better than everyone if you used cheap tactics, congrats, prove it. They've already proved themselves, you haven't. Put up or shut up.

[GallowsPole]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

I will give you that the way ME developers USED the mechanic was intentional. That still doesn't explain as to why it even exists in the first place. That is what Im arguing. Cancel reload was not intentionally put there. It was a necessary evil of how the game must be made, and I will give you that as a result, ME developers utilized it to say hey, look what we did for you.

Except it isn't, did you not bother to read what you quoted me for?
They could've easily chosen for the ammo not to register until the animation has completed, but they didn't.

I read it just fine. Again, I said ME devs changed it to their liking. Im giving you that. Im asking WHY does the mechanic exist in the first place as well as in other shooters. Those devs used it to their liking as well. But the fundamental programming is still is what it is. Just each dev changed it for their game. But the underlying programming is still similar. WHY?

[GallowsPole]

Ohoh. Now I gotta post videos to demonstrate my leet skills. I feel like Im on the playground again. Ive offered many times to play and played with many.

Modifié par GallowsPole, 26 décembre 2012 - 11:57 .

[kaileena_sands]

GallowsPole wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

 Wow, this topic again? Why are people so butthurt over reload cancelling? Is the next topic I am going to see be about nova cancelling, too? 

This is a legitimate question btw, I want to know the motivation of people behind constantly having cheese and whine over it. I can think of two reasons:

1. They suck terribly and cannot do it.

2. They can do it, but for somehow consider themselves too... "honourable" for doing such things and as such kind of people often do, they want to shove their own opinions in other people's mouths. 

Well no. Its not honor. Its self immersion. That's all. I neither suck or think it is honorable Simply unrealistic. And as everyone mostly pointed out, reload cancelling 'rewards' the player for using it. And its usually a big reward. So I just think its cheap. I could care less who uses it or not. I care about the realism of the game (for what is is for a sci fi shooter), but still I like to hear that click and the shotgun reload before I use it.

Just my opinion. While everyone is claiming how great they are and they are using this or spawn nuking in the name of getting the game done faster YET post high scores and say everyone else sucks, than I have the right to say well yeah. Using cheap ass tactics I could outscore anyone too.

Well, if you truly don't care about score then it shouldn't matter if someone scores greater than you because they reload cancelled, right? Or spawn nuked? I had a game yesterday with someone who spawn nuked and I finished a bit behind them. Do I care? Nope, it was actually quite good that the game went faster and I got my money faster. Also, there were quite enough enemies left for me to kill and have fun. So no harm done.

And since it's pretty hard to see if someone is reload cancelling unless you are glued to them like a creepy stalker, how does that break your immersion? Just don't do it yourself and you'll be fine.

P.S. I don't want to argue with you like the others, since we are different people and this is your opinion which doesn't have to be like mine. But I've gotta say... there are so many unrealistic things in this game. xD Was RCing the last drop or? 

Modifié par kaileena_sands, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[lightswitch]

Aedolon wrote...

I also agree that reload cancel is poor game design. Why's that? It's because I wan't to play the game, not it's controls. In my opinion, game controls should always be as smooth and effortless as possible. I don't want to jump extra hoops just to make the game character do what I want it to do.

And for the argument that reload cancel rewards player skill: it doesn't even require skill. It's extremely easy. I can do it in my sleep. It's simply an arbitrary requirement if you wan't to be as effective as possible. Why do I have to keep doing these stupid, inane tricks just to make my character perform the way it was designed to perform - by the devs' own admission?

If Claymore can be reloaded in 1.04 seconds instead of 2.57 seconds, can anyone really give me a good reason why my character couldn't do it by itself? It's not like this has anything to do with balance. I'll do it anyway - but why do I have to?

I'm pretty confused about what you mean by playing the game, not the controls. Isn't that what every game is, just a set of controls? And a fundamental part of every game is mastering said controls, and even eventually learning to use them in unintended ways? I guess there is also learning the environment and enemies, but learning the controls is a basic part of any game.

I sort of get what you're saying about it being arbitrary, but in that sense isn't every game mechanic completely arbitrary? In my view, hidden game mechanics that players can discover to increase their effectiveness add a great deal to the depth of game play, and instead of being poor or lazy game design as the OP suggested actually make games much more interesting. It's in-your-face, takes-no-research-or-skill mechanics like the GoW quick reload that I find pointless.

And fwiw it's worth, I'll still mess up my reload cancels sometimes when I failed to kill that phantom on the first shot and I'm desperate to get another round in the chamber. It adds some drama to the game.

[Zero132132]

One other old link that proves, absolutely unambiguously, that it isn't a glitch in ME3.

Link.

Christina Norman wrote...

About the reload trick and documentation.

99% of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users in documentation. Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.

I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.

With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

You could be paranoid and call her a liar, and even if you were right, it wouldn't matter to this argument.

Why?

Because she's talking about Mass Effect 2. If it was a glitch, they already knew about it and put it in ME3. It's intentional, and whiny morons need to get the hell over it.

[GallowsPole]

Spawn nuking I care about. Because it agitates me when Im working on the group handedly, and some ass wipe tosses a rocket into it.

I don't care about reload cancelling at all. When I talk about it, its usually in the vein of realism vs who uses it to score high. Why in my opinion, its cheap. I am allowed to have an opinion aren't I?

[BjornDaDwarf]

ermahgawd, this topic again.

[Vilyn117]

DullahansXMark wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

What if I told you, it literally is not a glitch?

There are numbers that say YOU'RE the fool. And I pity you for that.

This is funny.  And embarassing. For you anyway. Another possibility, is that this is another unfinished feature in the game that they wer enever able to fully implement, hence why it's so inconsistent, and not cleary shown in game, possibly in the same way the indoctrination of shepard was scrapped, but people still believe the IT is correct because remnants are there.


Did I read posts about peopple being unskilled? You do realize reload cancelling is something any bronze player can pull off without fail? It's stupid easy, another reason wyhy it's just utterly terrible.

Modifié par Vilyn117, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[kaileena_sands]

Vilyn117 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

What if I told you, it literally is not a glitch?

There are numbers that say YOU'RE the fool. And I pity you for that.

This is funny.  And embarassing. For you anyway. Another possibility, is that this is another unfinished feature in the game that they wer enever able to fully implement, hence why it's so inconsistent, and not cleary shown in game, possibly in the same way the indoctrination of shepard was scrapped, but people still believe the IT is correct because remnants are there.

Dood, you've played MP like 9 hours. It isn't enough time to annoy you what other people do (and there will be more annoying stuff than RC, I guarantee you). Chill!  

Modifié par kaileena_sands, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:09 .

[Reizo Ryuu]

GallowsPole wrote...

I read it just fine. Again, I said ME devs changed it to their liking. Im giving you that. Im asking WHY does the mechanic exist in the first place as well as in other shooters. Those devs used it to their liking as well. But the fundamental programming is still is what it is. Just each dev changed it for their game. But the underlying programming is still similar. WHY?

Why? Because the underlying programming isn't similar at all? There isn't 1 way to code a reload sequence.

To give a simplified example, they are simple flags.
You could code based around a single flag system, which tells you:
Pressing reload starts a specific animation, when this animation ends the gun becomes reloaded.
Easiest system for a game that doesn't have cancelable animation states.
Resident evil 4 and 5 are good examples of this.

A double flag system, which tells you:
Pressing reload starts a specific animation and a timer, where the state of the gun is decided by the timer, regardless of what the animation dictates.
Resident evil 6 and Mass effect 3 are good examples of this.

Now either of these systems can be used with games that have cancelable animation states, but the second one is only required if you want a system that can have a reload state independant of the animation.
Now ask yourself why you'd put a programmer up to extra work if it isn't something intended by design?
Exactly..

Now there are many more possible systems besides these 2, gears in particular uses something else because it has values for jamming, fast reload and buffed reload.

[Vilyn117]

kaileena_sands wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

What if I told you, it literally is not a glitch?

There are numbers that say YOU'RE the fool. And I pity you for that.

This is funny.  And embarassing. For you anyway. Another possibility, is that this is another unfinished feature in the game that they wer enever able to fully implement, hence why it's so inconsistent, and not cleary shown in game, possibly in the same way the indoctrination of shepard was scrapped, but people still believe the IT is correct because remnants are there.

Dood, you've played MP like 9 hours. It isn't enough time to annoy you what other people do (and there will be more annoying stuff than RC, I guarantee you). Chill!  

That awkward moment when somebody doesnt realize you have another account on xbox that has 400 hours. /BSN

Plus its not annoying. Nothing in this game is annoying. a MG isnt even annoying. It doesnt actually bother me, and i do use it because its there. But that doesnt mean it's not implemented terribly.

Modifié par Vilyn117, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:12 .

[Zero132132]

Vilyn117 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

What if I told you, it literally is not a glitch?

There are numbers that say YOU'RE the fool. And I pity you for that.

This is funny.  And embarassing. For you anyway. Another possibility, is that this is another unfinished feature in the game that they wer enever able to fully implement, hence why it's so inconsistent, and not cleary shown in game, possibly in the same way the indoctrination of shepard was scrapped, but people still believe the IT is correct because remnants are there.

Did I read posts about peopple being unskilled? You do realize reload cancelling is something any bronze player can pull off without fail? It's stupid easy, another reason wyhy it's just utterly terrible.

Mocking others won't change the fact that you're unambiguously wrong in your central claim. It isn't a glitch.

[Vilyn117]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

I read it just fine. Again, I said ME devs changed it to their liking. Im giving you that. Im asking WHY does the mechanic exist in the first place as well as in other shooters. Those devs used it to their liking as well. But the fundamental programming is still is what it is. Just each dev changed it for their game. But the underlying programming is still similar. WHY?

Why? Because the underlying programming isn't similar at all? There isn't 1 way to code a reload sequence.

To give a simplified example, they are simple flags.
You could code based around a single flag system, which tells you:
Pressing reload starts a specific animation, when this animation ends the gun becomes reloaded.
Easiest system for a game that doesn't have cancelable animation states.
Resident evil 4 and 5 are good examples of this.

A double flag system, which tells you:
Pressing reload starts a specific animation and a timer, where the state of the gun is decided by the timer, regardless of what the animation dictates.
Resident evil 6 and Mass effect 3 are good examples of this.

Now either of these systems can be used with games that have cancelable animation states, but the second one is only required if you want a system that can have a reload state independant of the animation.
Now ask yourself why you'd put a programmer up to extra work if it isn't something intended by design?
Exactly..

Now there are many more possible systems besides these 2, gears in particular uses something else because it has values for jamming, fast reload and buffed reload.

I'm currently under the impression it's another one of those unfinishedfeatures that they never got around to fully implementing, so they took the easy way out.

[Vilyn117]

Zero132132 wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

What if I told you, it literally is not a glitch?

There are numbers that say YOU'RE the fool. And I pity you for that.

This is funny.  And embarassing. For you anyway. Another possibility, is that this is another unfinished feature in the game that they wer enever able to fully implement, hence why it's so inconsistent, and not cleary shown in game, possibly in the same way the indoctrination of shepard was scrapped, but people still believe the IT is correct because remnants are there.

Did I read posts about peopple being unskilled? You do realize reload cancelling is something any bronze player can pull off without fail? It's stupid easy, another reason wyhy it's just utterly terrible.

Mocking others won't change the fact that you're unambiguously wrong in your central claim. It isn't a glitch.

Lucky for you, that proved nothing.

[kaileena_sands]

Vilyn117 wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Vilyn117 wrote...

Reload cancelling is a glitch. People who defend it are fools. Know how it's a glitch? THE WAYS TO DO IT ARE NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL GAMES.For example, pc has the medigel version ,which is easy as HELL and is not on the consoles. It should be removed for ME4, it also breaks gun balance.

What if I told you, it literally is not a glitch?

There are numbers that say YOU'RE the fool. And I pity you for that.

This is funny.  And embarassing. For you anyway. Another possibility, is that this is another unfinished feature in the game that they wer enever able to fully implement, hence why it's so inconsistent, and not cleary shown in game, possibly in the same way the indoctrination of shepard was scrapped, but people still believe the IT is correct because remnants are there.

Dood, you've played MP like 9 hours. It isn't enough time to annoy you what other people do (and there will be more annoying stuff than RC, I guarantee you). Chill!  

That awkward moment when somebody doesnt realize you have another account on xbox that has 400 hours. /BSN

Plus its not annoying. Nothing in this game is annoying. a MG isnt even annoying. It doesnt actually bother me, and i do use it because its there. But that doesnt mean it's not implemented terribly.

Heh, ok then you have reasonable reason to be annoyed.  Especially since it isn't easy with all those missle glitchers for the console peasants.  (just joking, don't take offense xD)