Posting my Loghain defense once more.
Loghain was not well written. His Warden recruitment at the end was IMHO, an attempt to fix the cheesy cartoony dark villain he was until the landsmeet.
And he flips 180 degrees. Turns noble, cares about his daughter and the warden.. Very forced and not well written also. But no one can say he was pure evil because he regrets stuff and offers his life.
He
always cared about Anora. That whole idea that Loghain would've killed his daughter? Complete BS. Howe
approached Loghain with the idea, but Loghain
refused to do such a thing -- something he'll tell you if you spare him.
That wouldn't have stopped Howe from doing such a thing though, because Howe is the very definition of Complete Monster. He does things For the Evulz.
Nope, not buying.
FFS he pratically raised Caillan and left him to die. A good general could have left the battle when he saw their forces outnumbered,
That's what he did.
You could argue that he should've attempted to save Cailan with a contingent of men ordered to do so -- whether they would succeed is irrelevant, though given how quickly he dies by Ogre and I'm assuming the mass of Darkspawn between Cailan and Loghain he couldn't have been saved -- but he did order a tactical withdrawal from the battlefield when it became apparent that they were outnumbered.
And Cailan's death was his own doing. Cailan was a spoiled brat, wanting to play war and fascinated with glory -- be it glory he wanted or the glory of others in legends.
Had Loghain attempted to rescue Cailan and failed, that would've been a politically sound move to try and get Ferelden to unify under his banner, as he did attempt to save their king.
But no one has ever called Loghain a brilliant politician. He isn't.
but the same good general would not poison the leader of the largest surviving army, refused help and tried to kill the 2 people who could help again the large darkspawn horde he saw with his own 2 eyes.
Writters dropped the ball on Loghain and then tried a Hail Mary saving pass. Didn't save it for me
Yea, no they didn't.
Let's look at if from his perspective, as opposed to the "OMG He's so EVUL!!!" one he's unfortunately painted with all too often.
Eamon was a threat to the nation's well-being after Loghain was forced to make a judgement call at Ostagar. We know that Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar, as Loghain has been with the King at the fortress for the entire time -- something Duncan states in the HN and Mage Origins.
Eamon would've been clouded by his relationship to Cailan and more then likely would've failed to see the actual necessity of the withdrawal. He would've instigated a civil war I'm willing to bet. Loghain didn't want this to happen. So he tasked Jowan -- whom he met in Denerim, as Jowan states -- to go to Redcliffe to teach Connor about magic and administer the poison to Eamon, but this poison was only supposed to render Eamon comatose.
Nothing more. If Eamon's condition worsened to the point of death, Berwick would've reported to someone in Loghain's cadre saying such, and Loghain would send the antidote.
Now, of course, Connor went to the Desire Demon pleading for Eamon to be saved. He didn't know Eamon wouldn't have died -- or that it was an unlikely scenario, anyway -- and so that's why he did so. And the demon did keep Eamon alive. She just kept his state of being from worsening.
Also, I very much doubt Eamon is the leader of the largest surviving army. That'd technically fall to either Loghain himself -- commanding the Teyrnir of Gwaren, as opposed to Eamon's Arling -- or Rendon Howe -- who by the time of the Battle at Ostagar, has claimed Highever and Denerim along with his already claimed Arling of Amaranthine.
As for the Wardens? Again, let's look at it from his perspective.
Here is a man who, for all his time at Ostagar, has not been told just how the Wardens know it's a Blight, other then vague comments where they say they "can feel it". While we the players know for a fact the Wardens are necessary, let's not forget that Loghain doesn't. We know the intricacies of the Joining. He doesn't. Not during Ostagar, anyway.
Duncan failed to tell Cailan or Loghain about these Warden secrets, which may have convinced Loghain that they're truly necessary. Had he known that they were linked to the Darkspawn hive-mind and could actually sense the Archdemon -- specifically, not those vague comments Alistair says Duncan told them -- then he would've realized "These guys are necessary."
All he had to go on were vague notions that they're necessary and tales about their prowess in battle. For all he knew, they were no different then the regular soldier, with only one thing distinguishing the Wardens from a soldier: they just fight Darkspawn all the time.
That could've been the extent of it as far as he knew.
Now, I'll say for the record that I personally find the army to bear the weight of the blame, but the Wardens aren't without blame either. I give the army 60% of the blame, at most. If not 60%, I often split it evenly, as Duncan's actions prior to Ostagar show that he should've been pressed by the army as to the validity of the claims to the nature of the Blight -- his reason for going to Orzammar is to find evidence of the Archdemon.
But then again, the Wardens are supposed to do whatever it takes to defeat the Blights. One would think this would include lying about finding evidence on the Archdemon to make people believe it's a Blight and telling the heads of state and generals about Warden secrets.
But let's also examine Cailan. Here is a child trapped in a man's body who is fascinated with war so much he wants glory for himself. He finds strategy sessions boring, wants to be the one to kill the Archdemon with his father's blade, and goes on and on about glory.
During the battle, he ruins the plan Loghain put forth -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy -- during the session. Instead of having the men in the back -- maybe a couple of rows -- firing constant volleys of arrows into the Darkspawn ranks, he has them fire only one volley.
Instead of keeping the Mabari hounds alongside his soldiers, he sends them out as little more then fodder troops where they kill, at most, 1-2 Darkspawn each before dying.
Instead of having the majority of his forces holding the line with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, he orders all of his troops to charge out into the open, where they're then besieged by the Darkspawn on all sides.
While it's extremely unlikely that Ostagar could've been won using what forces they had there, Cailan's idiocy doomed them from the start.
And during the strategy session, the Wardens failed to speak up about their necessity or offering any real insight into how the battle could play out.
Now, let's jump to what happens in the Tower of Ishal.
We the players are tasked with the duty of lighting the signal fire so that Loghain's men will know when to charge. The opportune moment for such a thing was when all the Darkspawn were in the valley, so that Loghain's men could corral the Darkspawn and begin to take them down. I refer you to KnightofPhoenix's
blog images on the subject of Ostagar.
Now, we the players -- as well as Alistair, the Warden, the Mabari, a Mage, and a Soldier in the Tower -- know that the signal was delayed due to the Darkspawn invading the Tower. I'll tackle how this is Bioware's fault on being contradictory in their writing later.
As Alistair himself notes, the signal was surely delayed too much due to the Darkspawn.
Loghain however, did not know the Darkspawn had delayed the signal fire. Because of how late it comes -- and how fractured the army is now -- he believes that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so as to weaken Ferelden's national stability -- what with the King dying, and in his mind them hoping he'd lead his men to death too.
Had he charged, this is what would've happened.
Because if that happened, Ferelden would've had no choice but to rely on Orlesian assistance during the Blight, which would be a repeat of what they've done in Blights past.
In his mind, the Wardens are helping the Orlesians, as they've done in the past. In Blights past, the Orlesians used the Blights as a reason for "aiding" nations too weakened by the Darkspawn to stand on their own, and then after the Blight was ended they made it a point to never leave.
For more insight on that, see the history of Nevarra, the Free Marches, and IIRC the Anderfels.
As such, he truly believed the delay of the signal fire was done on purpose by the Wardens to weaken Ferelden and give Orlais the moment to "aid" the nation. Orlais itself has used the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage by helping further their expansionist policies, of which Empress Celene I was reputed to be an expansionist herself in Origins -- changed to being a peaceloving monarch in DAII.
So let's recap, shall we?
1) He knows little about why the Order is necessary.
2) Cailan believed that the presence of the Wardens was enough to win the battle. In truth, it wasn't, and Ostagar using Loghain's strategy -- or even what forces they did have there -- was unwinnable. This isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won had more forces been present and the place better fortified. I'm certain Ostagar could've been won, had things been different.
3) The Wardens did not speak up on anything that could help fight the Darkspawn.
4) Cailan ruined the battle plan.
5) The signal fire was delayed to the point of being too late -- and not accurate, as Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds. For what reason, Loghain didn't know. But based on history, he had strong inclinations as to why it was so. He was wrong, but he didn't know the real reason.
6) Orlais has a history of using the Wardens and the Blights as grounds to further their expansionist policies, something Loghain brings up at the first Landsmeet.
From all of this alone, his opinions of the Wardens is not very high. He can only view them as Orlesian tools, because that's all the evidence has shown itself to be for him. He didn't have all the facts, but from what he did know it was not painted very well in the Wardens' favor.
Let's not forget the rebellion that happened in centuries past by Sophia Dryden -- a justified rebellion, but the truth was never publicly known. Let's also not forget that what happens in The Calling further adds fuel to the fires of why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens.
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Now, I said I'd tackle the whole Tower of Ishal failure on Bioware's part. This stems from them failing to properly keep their own character -- Loghain -- consistent with how he's portrayed.
He became Teyrn of Gwaren in 9:11 Dragon, so he's been the ruling lord of that area for 19 years. His own codex states that he's a man who wishes to know where his borders end and how best to defend them.
And yet Bioware made it a point to have Loghain completely in the dark about Ostagar's structure. This is a blatant failure of their writing, as David Gaider -- the man who wrote Loghain, IIRC -- failed to keep Loghain consistent.
Then, when we find out about the Tower's lower levels, we find that Loghain's first action was to... explore them? On the eve of a major battle? This is a failure from a military strategy point of view as well as writing, because while you should know the layout of a fortress Loghain should've already known all of this in the 19 years he was Teyrn of Gwaren and general of Ferelden, the man whose strategies kicked the Orlesians out of the nation.
But because he didn't know, we're supposed to be able to believe that the more sensible course of action when Darkspawn are at your heels in the Wilds is to explore these lower caverns? Seriously? NO. It's to immediately seal them up, preferably in such a way that they're unusable by the Darkspawn as it's pretty evident that these caverns will lead to the Wilds -- indeed, they lead into the very valley Cailan was in.
And before anyone goes "So doesn't this mean he deliberately left the Tower open to invasion and used the Darkspawn to justify leaving Cailan", no it doesn't. Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the Tower being invaded by Darkspawn nor did he plan such a thing. It was an unexpected thing.
The failure here being that the people that wrote the Ostagar scenario -- not the Cailan moment, but the Tower of Ishal thing and Loghain's ignorance on the entire fortress -- is a critical failure in military warfare knowledge and consistent writing of Loghain Mac Tir.
As such, the blame falls on Bioware.
1. Why not let couple of Uldred's follow mages to signal Lohgain's army, and have many templars to keep watch on them so that mages can be slain the moment they refuse to send a signal? To me utilizing mages to signal a flank attack and keeping close eyes on them sound far more plausible than using the Tower of Issal which was not completely secured. Mages were allowed to enter the fade in the camp. Why not let them do some fireworks under templars watch, especially when it is a safer option than using a tower the basement of which has not been scouted?
Well first, the Grand Cleric that shot down Uldred's idea is an idiot. Uldred was actually proposing more or less what you suggest.
"Your majesty, the Tower and its beacon are unnecessary. If I may---"
"We will not trust any lives to your spells, Mage!"
Second, Bioware sucks at military tactics.
2. Why does Lohgain need a signal at all? According to David Gaider, he did not go into the battle determined to abandon the king, as the result of the battle was catastrophic for Ferelden and he must have been mad to intentionally throw the half of Ferelden's soldiers to their deaths.
This indicates that Loghain did not accurately estimate the number of the darkspawn, and when Cailan's army was overwhelmed and a signal was sent, he decided that the battle was a lost cause. If he could tell that the signal is seriously delayed and the battle can't not be won, it means that he either had a clear view of the battlefield or was capable of assessing the battle situation. He didn't need a signal to know when to charge in the first place....
Correct, Loghain underestimated the strength of the Darkspawn in that battle. Everyone did, actually. No one expected their numbers for that engagement to be as big as they were.
The idea seemed to be that Loghain had a view of the Tower's beacon and enough of a view so that he might be able to see enough of the battlefield to understand that Cailan's troops were cracking under pressure. If you look at the pictures in the link Monica21 posted, you'll see the ideal setup that seemed to be where Loghain's men were situated.
They could see enough of the battle going on and could look behind them to see the beacon.
Also, Bioware ****ed up writing Loghain as the competent general we know him as for Ostagar.
3. Why does the army fight down in the valley? Wouldn't it be more sound if they let some stationed at their camps and some fight below the bridge, rolling down stones and arrows to greet the darkspawn with a more defensive position? To quote DA:O, "history won't remember how awesome your failed front attack was." I know Cailan wanted a glory and all, but why did he have to give the order for all his troops to charge? They could have utilzed their camps' higher ground to their advantages. A sieged army can fight off 3,4 times larger army given they have topographical advantages.
Again, they underestimated the strength of the Darkspawn for this battle. Everyone knew they were getting stronger, but they didn't think the Darkspawn would throw their entire might at the fortress.
In addition, they had some fortifications and ballistae. Just not enough. We don't know if Ferelden even has trebuchets and the like, but we do know the Chantry refused to send any more then 7-8 Mages to Ostagar.
And a Mage is essentially a living trebuchet.
Furthermore, Cailan ruined Loghain's proposed strategy by ordering all of his men to charge from their positions -- thus rendering them open to attack from the left, right, and frontal flanks -- as opposed to using the walls of the fortress to protect their left and right flanks. What should've happened at least was that they should've had a shield wall of numerous rows of soldiers with volleys of arrows pouring in from archers stationed behind them.
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