482 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

crimzontearz wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

And since I am still here, apparently I do or else I would have been able to move on

Look at the way you talk on here. Is it any wonder nobody wants to confront that kind of anger? They used every narrative trick in the book short of an explicit reunion to show Shepard lives. People like you continue to froth in anger, so they throw up their hands and say "let them believe what they want." If you want to believe he's dead, congratulations - he's dead. It's not worth addressing further. Get MEHEM if you're that broken up, or get help. What you're doing to yourself is simply not healthy.

THEY are the storytellers, not me. If THEY do not specifically say something happens AND go forth specifically saying things that defy the supposed author intention then it DID NOT HAPPEN.
 
May the anger they caused burn them until they understand and do something about or until they go the way of bullfrog

Writer's intent with the scene was clear. You refuse to accept it. I think this is the point where I pull a Tully and throw up my hands. Have fun with your seething anger. Believe whatever you want - your miserable headcanon isn't my problem.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 28 décembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Pick a color]

If it was so clear, then there wouldn't be "lots of speculations."

[crimzontearz]

Really, because upon being asked Tully SPECIFICALLY said that Adding Context = Change the Ending. So THAT is his stance and not the original "it is clear he lives" one.

IF writer intent is so obvious then pray tell why the company line is "he may live or die, it is up to you" as opposed to "our intent was to clearly say he lives"

Oh wait...right, it's like the explosion of the Mass Relays and the galactic dark ages

Yep, seems legit

[MegaSovereign]

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

only with an official statement - something crimson will not get. unless, it was all a big hoax and the dlc will turn the story around.

but that is most likely not going to happen.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[crimzontearz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

word of god is canon as far as I am concerned. If Casey or Mac found the testicular fortitude to come here and say "high EMS destroy = Shepard lives, is rescued and reunites with the crew and LI I  would be far less angry

[MegaSovereign]

crimzontearz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

word of god is canon as far as I am concerned. If Casey or Mac found the testicular fortitude to come here and say "high EMS destroy = Shepard lives, is rescued and reunites with the crew and LI I  would be far less angry

That's as likely as Bioware coming out and saying IT is bull****.

Deep down inside everyone knows the truth.

[Iakus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

And since I am still here, apparently I do or else I would have been able to move on

Look at the way you talk on here. Is it any wonder nobody wants to confront that kind of anger? They used every narrative trick in the book short of an explicit reunion to show Shepard lives. People like you continue to froth in anger, so they throw up their hands and say "let them believe what they want." If you want to believe he's dead, congratulations - he's dead. It's not worth addressing further. Get MEHEM if you're that broken up, or get help. What you're doing to yourself is simply not healthy.

\\


Then they haven't used every narrative trick in the book.

[crimzontearz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

word of god is canon as far as I am concerned. If Casey or Mac found the testicular fortitude to come here and say "high EMS destroy = Shepard lives, is rescued and reunites with the crew and LI I  would be far less angry

That's as likely as Bioware coming out and saying IT is bull****.

Deep down inside everyone knows the truth.

not my point

[Jackal13th]

LucasShark wrote...

The breath scene is exactly the same thing as done in X-Men 3 (a terrible movie by the way), it is a shallow attempt to keep the door open for sequels incase the money cow isn't dead yet. Does it make sense? No, does that matter from the executives' perspective? Also no.

I agree it is a just in case the Masseffect 4 does not do too good .

[crimzontearz]

Jackal13th wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

The breath scene is exactly the same thing as done in X-Men 3 (a terrible movie by the way), it is a shallow attempt to keep the door open for sequels incase the money cow isn't dead yet. Does it make sense? No, does that matter from the executives' perspective? Also no.

I agree it is a just in case the Masseffect 4 does not do too good .

lol....you mean like Reach?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Breath scene? It goes much much deeper than this.

Face the facts. The ending is absolute crap. You sacrifice your life for the sins of the galaxy. They make a martyr out of you and found a new religion about you no matter what. I wonder who is the figurative "Shepherd" or do they have to be German (which would be preferable - I think a dog would make a better leader)? I wonder which group they hate? I wonder what the commandments are because no matter what there have to be commandments.

No. I wanted to live. I wanted to live out my days with my LI and I didn't want any hokey religion founded after me.

Explore that conversation with Liara after your gift if you're a Liaramancer, but you probably shouldn't explore too deeply. "This is goodbye, Shepard." Yea, for it is written thou shalt not returneth from thine mission.

And it's one, two, three what are we fighting for
Don't ask me I don't give a 88it
My next stop is a Thanix hit
And it's five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates
There ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopie! We're all gonna die!

The breath scene is absolute poppycock. It was put there in hopes that it would belay the backlash of killing off the character you loved for probably over 600 hrs of gameplay. It was a colossal failure. Yet it remains.

However, the main problem with the entire ending still remains. "Priority Earth". Come on, even the name is lame. We war mongerers can easily come up with a better name in less than 10 seconds. "Operation Earth Victory" You've got to have a name that inspires the troops to kick ass and take names.... "Priority Earth" .... give me a break. It's like saying "please" to the enemy.

And the whole charge up the main street in London was lame. It's dark, not day like in the trailer. There's no inspiring propaganda battle music. We look for a Cain to take out an AA battery so we can get to da choppa.

The we say our final goodbye to our team before we die.

Then at the Thanix, the action stops for the next 50 minutes. Then it's off to death and the conversation from hell with ghost kid who is the spawn of satan and tempts you thrice. This to me is the most objectionable part of the entire game. This is where Shepard either stays true to herself and refuses temptation, or submits to temptation, but in any event is believed to have sacrificed herself for the benefit of the many, and thus a hokey religion is formed around Her, The Shepherd. Shepard was persecuted by the Council. Shepard was persecuted by the Alliance. This is your reward.

Screw the breath scene. They killed off Shepard. There is no way in hell Shepard could survive that explosion. They couldn't let Shepard just live out her life in retirement. It's not the way of the world. They couldn't write a better ending, but they're not even going to give an optional DLC for closure because they killed Shepard, and you can't have a martyr live after the end of the game otherwise they wouldn't be a martyr and found a new religion and be called The Shepherd. Martyrs must die.

I think they said. This sounds like a good story, but how do we end it. Oh, we'll worry about that later. Later came and it was, oh crap. We already did the suicide mission in a meaningless game. We don't want a Saren II. Okay, let's do this and see what happens. It needs a completely new ending. This one doesn't fit, but a better one would be too videogamey.

[dorktainian]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Breath scene? It goes much much deeper than this.

Face the facts. The ending is absolute crap. You sacrifice your life for the sins of the galaxy. They make a martyr out of you and found a new religion about you no matter what. I wonder who is the figurative "Shepherd" or do they have to be German (which would be preferable - I think a dog would make a better leader)? I wonder which group they hate? I wonder what the commandments are because no matter what there have to be commandments.

No. I wanted to live. I wanted to live out my days with my LI and I didn't want any hokey religion founded after me.

Explore that conversation with Liara after your gift if you're a Liaramancer, but you probably shouldn't explore too deeply. "This is goodbye, Shepard." Yea, for it is written thou shalt not returneth from thine mission.

And it's one, two, three what are we fighting for
Don't ask me I don't give a 88it
My next stop is a Thanix hit
And it's five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates
There ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopie! We're all gonna die!

The breath scene is absolute poppycock. It was put there in hopes that it would belay the backlash of killing off the character you loved for probably over 600 hrs of gameplay. It was a colossal failure. Yet it remains.

However, the main problem with the entire ending still remains. "Priority Earth". Come on, even the name is lame. We war mongerers can easily come up with a better name in less than 10 seconds. "Operation Earth Victory" You've got to have a name that inspires the troops to kick ass and take names.... "Priority Earth" .... give me a break. It's like saying "please" to the enemy.

And the whole charge up the main street in London was lame. It's dark, not day like in the trailer. There's no inspiring propaganda battle music. We look for a Cain to take out an AA battery so we can get to da choppa.

The we say our final goodbye to our team before we die.

Then at the Thanix, the action stops for the next 50 minutes. Then it's off to death and the conversation from hell with ghost kid who is the spawn of satan and tempts you thrice. This to me is the most objectionable part of the entire game. This is where Shepard either stays true to herself and refuses temptation, or submits to temptation, but in any event is believed to have sacrificed herself for the benefit of the many, and thus a hokey religion is formed around Her, The Shepherd. Shepard was persecuted by the Council. Shepard was persecuted by the Alliance. This is your reward.

Screw the breath scene. They killed off Shepard. There is no way in hell Shepard could survive that explosion. They couldn't let Shepard just live out her life in retirement. It's not the way of the world. They couldn't write a better ending, but they're not even going to give an optional DLC for closure because they killed Shepard, and you can't have a martyr live after the end of the game otherwise they wouldn't be a martyr and found a new religion and be called The Shepherd. Martyrs must die.

I think they said. This sounds like a good story, but how do we end it. Oh, we'll worry about that later. Later came and it was, oh crap. We already did the suicide mission in a meaningless game. We don't want a Saren II. Okay, let's do this and see what happens. It needs a completely new ending. This one doesn't fit, but a better one would be too videogamey.

     




www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par dorktainian, 28 décembre 2012 - 07:44 .

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Breath scene? It goes much much deeper than this.

Face the facts. The ending is absolute crap. You sacrifice your life for the sins of the galaxy. They make a martyr out of you and found a new religion about you no matter what. I wonder who is the figurative "Shepherd" or do they have to be German (which would be preferable - I think a dog would make a better leader)? I wonder which group they hate? I wonder what the commandments are because no matter what there have to be commandments.

No. I wanted to live. I wanted to live out my days with my LI and I didn't want any hokey religion founded after me.

The Shepard is my Lord, I shall not want
He maketh me lie down in green spacemagic beams, he leadeth me beside the control rods
He destroyeth the geth, he leadeth me into the exploding pipe for righeousness sake
Yeah though I walk through the valley of Refusal I shall fear no Starbrat...

[DeinonSlayer]

iakus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Breath scene? It goes much much deeper than this.

Face the facts. The ending is absolute crap. You sacrifice your life for the sins of the galaxy. They make a martyr out of you and found a new religion about you no matter what. I wonder who is the figurative "Shepherd" or do they have to be German (which would be preferable - I think a dog would make a better leader)? I wonder which group they hate? I wonder what the commandments are because no matter what there have to be commandments.

No. I wanted to live. I wanted to live out my days with my LI and I didn't want any hokey religion founded after me.

The Shepard is my Lord, I shall not want
He maketh me lie down in green spacemagic beams, he leadeth me beside the control rods
He destroyeth the geth, he leadeth me into the exploding pipe for righeousness sake
Yeah though I walk through the valley of Refusal I shall fear no Starbrat...

Forever and ever
I should go

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Breath scene? It goes much much deeper than this.

Face the facts. The ending is absolute crap. You sacrifice your life for the sins of the galaxy. They make a martyr out of you and found a new religion about you no matter what. I wonder who is the figurative "Shepherd" or do they have to be German (which would be preferable - I think a dog would make a better leader)? I wonder which group they hate? I wonder what the commandments are because no matter what there have to be commandments.

No. I wanted to live. I wanted to live out my days with my LI and I didn't want any hokey religion founded after me.

The Shepard is my Lord, I shall not want
He maketh me lie down in green spacemagic beams, he leadeth me beside the control rods
He destroyeth the geth, he leadeth me into the exploding pipe for righeousness sake
Yeah though I walk through the valley of Refusal I shall fear no Starbrat...

My Widow and my Carnifex they comfort me

[XxBrokenBonezxX]

Sunnyhat1 wrote...

I do not believe in IT.


The only way the breathing makes ANY sense would be if he never went to the citadel. He was hit by harbingers beam (or nearly) and fell unconcious.

Then the catalyst somehow communicates with sheppard and the whole dreamy, decision thing happens.

The idiocy.....this hurts me. 
Like, I seriously have no words.

[Sunnyhat1]

XxBrokenBonezxX wrote...

Sunnyhat1 wrote...

I do not believe in IT.


The only way the breathing makes ANY sense would be if he never went to the citadel. He was hit by harbingers beam (or nearly) and fell unconcious.

Then the catalyst somehow communicates with sheppard and the whole dreamy, decision thing happens.

The idiocy.....this hurts me. 
Like, I seriously have no words.

Keep it civil will ya?

Even with considered IT my question remains the same. I just didn't wanna drag it in here because it always ends in flaming..

I do agree sheppard has alot of indoctrination symptoms during the game but there are other ways to communicate in a scifi universe.

The reason i don't believe in IT is (as i stated) because i don't believe BW capable of it. Especially after the EC. Even if it would make sense.

Modifié par Sunnyhat1, 28 décembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[XxBrokenBonezxX]

Sunnyhat1 wrote...
Keep it civil will ya? 

Even with considered IT my question remains the same. I just didn't wanna drag it in here because it always ends in flaming..

I do agree sheppard has alot of indoctrination symptoms during the game but there are other ways to communicate in a scifi universe.

The reason i don't believe in IT is (as i stated) because i don't believe BW capable of it. Especially after the EC. Even if it would make sense.

I don't believe what I said was uncivil but ok. You said you didn't believe in IT and then turned right around and said unless what basically happens in IT happened. I know you don't think Bioware is capable of it, and I would probably agree.  If you believe in IT, Shepard's breath is him waking up after being hit by Harbingers beam. If you don't believe in IT, it's Shepard waking up after the Citadel explosion somehow still alive. Nothing to make sense of.

[Merchant2006]

Shepard breathes.

What they don't show is Shepard breathing out and dying due both lungs collapsing.

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

It's not about what Bioware says, it is about what Bioware shows.  Sure, I believe Shepard lives, but the context of that happening is so vague as to be laughable.  The why and the how of it are non-existent.  It simply makes no sense.  It makes more sense that Shepard died, but since I don't want that to be true because I believe at least one of these crappy ending choices should end with at least a small bit of "happiness", I go with the idea that Shepard lived.  That is not however anything that makes any sense based upon what we are shown and what the kid says about Destroy.  The whole thing is as ridiculous as can be.  And, the cost of that gasp and the life thereafter is also something I must head canon into some semblance of say, decency.  The cost of survival is something that to the Shepard I played would be a cost very hard to live with.  The fact that all the choices are like that and so Shepard gets to happily die rather than face the crap s/he has foisted upon other people is something others see as balance.

Beyond all of this is the fact that we get to see in all its glory the skin flying off of dying Shepards.  Even though the explanations for those other choices are just as weak as for Destroy, at the very least Shepard's fate is not ambiguous-just what it all means for everyone else is pretty much ambiguous but we see the life stripped off of Shepard.

We're all different.  For me I need the visual nature of the game to be used to show me a living Shepard's fate.  Not blue children, but some more realistic appearance that will bridge the gap between that torso and the blue children or homes on Rannoch, or drinks with Garrus, and so on.  I personally have never liked cliff hanger endings except when I know the rest of the story will be told.  The real epilog that was needed was not to reassure us that the relays are A-OK.  For me the story was always about Shepard and so Shepard's fate is the most important of all.  I personally need to see it.  And Bioware knew and knows that many people feel the same.

[3DandBeyond]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Breath scene? It goes much much deeper than this.

Face the facts. The ending is absolute crap. You sacrifice your life for the sins of the galaxy. They make a martyr out of you and found a new religion about you no matter what. I wonder who is the figurative "Shepherd" or do they have to be German (which would be preferable - I think a dog would make a better leader)? I wonder which group they hate? I wonder what the commandments are because no matter what there have to be commandments.

No. I wanted to live. I wanted to live out my days with my LI and I didn't want any hokey religion founded after me.

Explore that conversation with Liara after your gift if you're a Liaramancer, but you probably shouldn't explore too deeply. "This is goodbye, Shepard." Yea, for it is written thou shalt not returneth from thine mission.

And it's one, two, three what are we fighting for
Don't ask me I don't give a 88it
My next stop is a Thanix hit
And it's five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates
There ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopie! We're all gonna die!

The breath scene is absolute poppycock. It was put there in hopes that it would belay the backlash of killing off the character you loved for probably over 600 hrs of gameplay. It was a colossal failure. Yet it remains.

However, the main problem with the entire ending still remains. "Priority Earth". Come on, even the name is lame. We war mongerers can easily come up with a better name in less than 10 seconds. "Operation Earth Victory" You've got to have a name that inspires the troops to kick ass and take names.... "Priority Earth" .... give me a break. It's like saying "please" to the enemy.

And the whole charge up the main street in London was lame. It's dark, not day like in the trailer. There's no inspiring propaganda battle music. We look for a Cain to take out an AA battery so we can get to da choppa.

The we say our final goodbye to our team before we die.

Then at the Thanix, the action stops for the next 50 minutes. Then it's off to death and the conversation from hell with ghost kid who is the spawn of satan and tempts you thrice. This to me is the most objectionable part of the entire game. This is where Shepard either stays true to herself and refuses temptation, or submits to temptation, but in any event is believed to have sacrificed herself for the benefit of the many, and thus a hokey religion is formed around Her, The Shepherd. Shepard was persecuted by the Council. Shepard was persecuted by the Alliance. This is your reward.

Screw the breath scene. They killed off Shepard. There is no way in hell Shepard could survive that explosion. They couldn't let Shepard just live out her life in retirement. It's not the way of the world. They couldn't write a better ending, but they're not even going to give an optional DLC for closure because they killed Shepard, and you can't have a martyr live after the end of the game otherwise they wouldn't be a martyr and found a new religion and be called The Shepherd. Martyrs must die.

I think they said. This sounds like a good story, but how do we end it. Oh, we'll worry about that later. Later came and it was, oh crap. We already did the suicide mission in a meaningless game. We don't want a Saren II. Okay, let's do this and see what happens. It needs a completely new ending. This one doesn't fit, but a better one would be too videogamey.

Do I hear an AMEN.  That breath scene is reminiscent of Omega Man with Charlton Heston.  They used Synthesis though as the sacrifice one and the imagery should not be lost on anyone who has seen any such movie with a martyr hero.  I just love how people say that a "happier" ending is too juvenile and all that, but they overlook the total cliche that is the martyr saviour hero, space Jesus.  Thy vomit reflex shall engulf thee.

In fact if one were to list all of the things that people did not want and then compare them to what we did get, cliche for cliche I think these nauseating endings would win the too gamey prize.  It's just that they tended to leave off the idea that we were playing a video game that supposedly had brains behind it, so that something that was too video gamey need not have been a part of something that actually felt like we were fighting the foe and had a chance at winning.  I still say that a boss fight trumps a sleep inducing boss conversation every time. 

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

It's not about what Bioware says, it is about what Bioware shows.  Sure, I believe Shepard lives, but the context of that happening is so vague as to be laughable.  The why and the how of it are non-existent.  It simply makes no sense.  It makes more sense that Shepard died, but since I don't want that to be true because I believe at least one of these crappy ending choices should end with at least a small bit of "happiness", I go with the idea that Shepard lived.  That is not however anything that makes any sense based upon what we are shown and what the kid says about Destroy.  The whole thing is as ridiculous as can be.  And, the cost of that gasp and the life thereafter is also something I must head canon into some semblance of say, decency.  The cost of survival is something that to the Shepard I played would be a cost very hard to live with.  The fact that all the choices are like that and so Shepard gets to happily die rather than face the crap s/he has foisted upon other people is something others see as balance.

To this day, I fail to see how this cannot be understood.  In particular by bioware developers who had a golden opportunity to put this right.

Modifié par iakus, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[MegaSovereign]

3DandBeyond wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

We're all different.  For me I need the visual nature of the game to be used to show me a living Shepard's fate.  Not blue children, but some more realistic appearance that will bridge the gap between that torso and the blue children or homes on Rannoch, or drinks with Garrus, and so on.  I personally have never liked cliff hanger endings except when I know the rest of the story will be told.  The real epilog that was needed was not to reassure us that the relays are A-OK.  For me the story was always about Shepard and so Shepard's fate is the most important of all.  I personally need to see it.  And Bioware knew and knows that many people feel the same.

Gonna have to strongly disagree there. Pre-EC fan rage centered around how the endings all looked the same and the relays super nova'ing and the fleets starving and your squadmates starving and your LI getting it on with Joker and so on and so forth. (Pre-EC) The only major complaint about the breath scene was that it required MP to attain. Not to undermine the breath scene issue but I had to point out that there were other immediate concerns that Bioware had to address.

Time, resources, and wanting to please both the IT and non-IT camps eventually lead to the same vague breath scene. Bioware's post-EC "believe what you want" attitude certainly didn't help either.

To me the story wasn't specifically about Shepard. It was about his/her quest to save the galaxy that he/she grew attached too. With that said, it would have been nice if Bioware expanded on the breath scene but the time to do it was with the EC. I would not pay a premium for an ending that should have been part of my game. You have your principles, I have mine.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

we do not even know, if the destroy-wave is actually an explosion. it could be a massive energy wave .. like in star trek 6.

the problem is that, without proper context, it could be anything.

before somebody brings this up: it is not an emp. an emp travels at the speed of light and it does not emit visible light or infrared-radiation.

Well, thing is the tube clearly explodes right in Shepard's face and encompasses his/her body.  And it then also destroys enough of something for it to end up in a pile half on top of the torso/body thing.

The problem for me is that the explanation for what happens is so horrible that the natural reaction to what the kid says should be, "WTF do you mean by that?"  "There will be losses but no more than have already occurred", "it will target all synthetics-even you are part synthetic", all tech will be damaged and so on and on into my vomit reflex.  I say that none of the choices have enough explanation, but destroy is particularly deficient.  And then what we see makes no sense. 

It's like we start with the kid and his explanation for why he's doing what he's doing makes no sense/is not relevant.  First problem.  Then, he states his "logic".  Again, problem.  Then, he refuses to really tell what he knows about the crucible.  Problem.  Then, he says his solution isn't working but he's still using it.  Problem.  Then, he wants Shepard to solve his problem instead of stopping machines from killing organics.  Big problem.  Then his explanation for what will happen with these choices (their origination and existence are major problems) is weak at best.  Major problem.  The fact that he knows what the choices will do is another thing.  Major problem.  That Shepard must die in 2 of the 3 choices that his/her enemy is describing (the kid having knowledge of what the choices will do) is another thing.  Major problem.  And that there's no possible way Shepard would even be able to say what would happen in Destroy (other than that hopefully the reapers would be destroyed), is another thing.  Major problem.  Then, we get to see a big explosion at point blank range that hits a person who's just been told something might happen to the synthetics inside him/her, anyway.  Well, I know now what the rubble is-it's a buttload of problems that fell on Shepard.  A whole mess of nonsense.