482 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

we do not even know, if the destroy-wave is actually an explosion. it could be a massive energy wave .. like in star trek 6.

the problem is that, without proper context, it could be anything.

before somebody brings this up: it is not an emp. an emp travels at the speed of light and it does not emit visible light or infrared-radiation.

Well, thing is the tube clearly explodes right in Shepard's face and encompasses his/her body.  And it then also destroys enough of something for it to end up in a pile half on top of the torso/body thing.

The problem for me is that the explanation for what happens is so horrible that the natural reaction to what the kid says should be, "WTF do you mean by that?"  "There will be losses but no more than have already occurred", "it will target all synthetics-even you are part synthetic", all tech will be damaged and so on and on into my vomit reflex.  I say that none of the choices have enough explanation, but destroy is particularly deficient.  And then what we see makes no sense. 

It's like we start with the kid and his explanation for why he's doing what he's doing makes no sense/is not relevant.  First problem.  Then, he states his "logic".  Again, problem.  Then, he refuses to really tell what he knows about the crucible.  Problem.  Then, he says his solution isn't working but he's still using it.  Problem.  Then, he wants Shepard to solve his problem instead of stopping machines from killing organics.  Big problem.  Then his explanation for what will happen with these choices (their origination and existence are major problems) is weak at best.  Major problem.  The fact that he knows what the choices will do is another thing.  Major problem.  That Shepard must die in 2 of the 3 choices that his/her enemy is describing (the kid having knowledge of what the choices will do) is another thing.  Major problem.  And that there's no possible way Shepard would even be able to say what would happen in Destroy (other than that hopefully the reapers would be destroyed), is another thing.  Major problem.  Then, we get to see a big explosion at point blank range that hits a person who's just been told something might happen to the synthetics inside him/her, anyway.  Well, I know now what the rubble is-it's a buttload of problems that fell on Shepard.  A whole mess of nonsense. 

nothing to object .. i was refering to the picture of the citadel and the nuke-like fireball, that is shown every five posts.

[Michael_M88]

Well Shepard was revived even after cutting the oxygen from his brain, so apparently any thing is possible. Honestly I think Mass Effect threw logic out the window when they introduced a race of single gendered squid people that can become pregnant with their mind and can reproduce with any race or gender.

Modifié par Michael_M88, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:17 .

[MegaSovereign]

Michael_M88 wrote...

Well Shepard was revived even after cutting the oxygen from his brain. Honestly I think Mass Effect threw logic out the window when they introduced a race of single gendered squid people that can become pregnant with their mind and can reproduce with any race or gender.

For a second I thought you were talking about Reapers lol...

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you believe he's dead then he's dead. I don't see how Bioware's words could change your mind otherwise.

We're all different.  For me I need the visual nature of the game to be used to show me a living Shepard's fate.  Not blue children, but some more realistic appearance that will bridge the gap between that torso and the blue children or homes on Rannoch, or drinks with Garrus, and so on.  I personally have never liked cliff hanger endings except when I know the rest of the story will be told.  The real epilog that was needed was not to reassure us that the relays are A-OK.  For me the story was always about Shepard and so Shepard's fate is the most important of all.  I personally need to see it.  And Bioware knew and knows that many people feel the same.

Gonna have to strongly disagree there. Pre-EC fan rage centered around how the endings all looked the same and the relays super nova'ing and the fleets starving and your squadmates starving and your LI getting it on with Joker and so on and so forth. (Pre-EC) The only major complaint about the breath scene was that it required MP to attain. Not to undermine the breath scene issue but I had to point out that there were other immediate concerns that Bioware had to address.

Time, resources, and wanting to please both the IT and non-IT camps eventually lead to the same vague breath scene. Bioware's post-EC "believe what you want" attitude certainly didn't help either.

To me the story wasn't specifically about Shepard. It was about his/her quest to save the galaxy that he/she grew attached too. With that said, it would have been nice if Bioware expanded on the breath scene but the time to do it was with the EC. I would not pay a premium for an ending that should have been part of my game. You have your principles, I have mine.

Actually, in the one main we're listening thread that Bioware created and stickied for feedback, the main concern was getting rid of the kid altogether and having a variety of endings, but at least some rational ones.  The discussions about the relays centered around the idiocy of showing us exploding relays and then trying to somehow say that people could actually survive that-crashed Normandy and so on.  Yes, that was discussed but in the context of saying
"this proves how dumb the endings are" and not that people needed to be hand fed the notion that the galaxy survived (complete with the cutscenes and slide shows we have now).  All they had to do was not destroy the relays-they in no way had to obsess over the meaning of it.  The original ending relay problem was just an indication of how much of a mess the original endings were.

I fully remember the discussions over it.  What people wanted was an ending that made sense and that didn't show Joker running away (out of character), stranded on an unknown planet with people that logically should have all died (relays) or would die since not everyone could eat the same food even if there was food.

The rest of the discussion centered around the idiocy of control-Shepard dies and controls the reapers, hate for synthesis (space magic that is still space magic), and the non-closure of the breath scene.  It was seen as moronic for all the same reasons that exist.  And because it was in context with the relays' destruction.

The relays came to be seen as the main thing, only because after they exploded there should have been nothing else left.  It was the biggest most evident mistake made.  But with the EC's release BW was in complete denial and blamed this on fans' misunderstanding of what happened.

The major complaints about the breath scene were (correct) that MP was needed for it AND that that was the best we could possibly get. 

What people by and large wanted was what they still want-a non-choice ending that is based upon our actions and choices throughout the game and that features a variety based upon the character we played, not some cookie cutter ending that everyone gets regardless of how they played the game.  This was stated repeatedly and far more than the derision over the stupidity of the mass relay destruction.  What many came to as a bottom line was that at least Shepard should have closure in all endings.

The story is told from Shepard's point of view and it is character-driven.  Shepard is the main character and therefore is the most important thing in the story.  If this were a story that was merely about a lot of marines fighting monsters and there was no main character-you toggled from character to character-then Shepard's fate would be far less important than it is.  But, Shepard is the player's voice and face in the game/story.  The story itself could have been set agains any common foe or any conflict.  The conflict becomes far less significant-this is seen in ME1 in fact, where you are up against a lot of different enemies, all while going after one or two main ones. 

You see it differently-I said that we are all different, but the way ME3 plays is like a Batman movie suddenly thinking it's far more important to know what happens to Alfred than to Batman.   Even Bioware said that to date this has been Shepard's story-they just tend to forget that.

[MegaSovereign]

Shepard's fate is important, but the state of the galaxy is much more important. Especially considering that Shepard's efforts throughout the trilogy were centered around saving the galaxy.

I take issue with the vagueness of the scene as well, but the original ending was so bad that there were other things that took priority when developing the EC.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[3DandBeyond]

Michael_M88 wrote...

Well Shepard was revived even after cutting the oxygen from his brain, so apparently any thing is possible. Honestly I think Mass Effect threw logic out the window when they introduced a race of single gendered squid people that can become pregnant with their mind and can reproduce with any race or gender.

Actually they don't become pregnant that way.  They "read" the genetic coding of their partner and use that along with parthenogenesis (a real form of asexual reproduction) to create offspring.  I agree it's far-fetched but the idea is apparently some type of genetic engineering that they can use and then parthenogenesis happens.  They get no actual genetic material from their partners.

Considering that a lot of people believe that psychokinesis is possible even with large objects, I don't think it's that far off to consider such manipulation of such small objects as sci fi possible.  Science Fiction doesn't have to rely on reality; it merely has to create science that makes it seem possible in the reality created.  Far-fetched but then there are still animals that do some wild things that seem just as far-fetched.   But then look at the Platypus or the Shark.  They detect their prey by electrolocation or electroreception.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard's fate is important, but the state of the galaxy is much more important. Especially considering that Shepard's efforts throughout the trilogy were centered around saving the galaxy.

I take issue with the vagueness of the scene as well, but the original ending was so bad that there were other things that took priority when developing the EC.

The problem is that even Bioware isn't so concerned with the galaxy as all that.  It's about Earth. 

The whole relay thing wasn't done to fix what they saw as their mistake-it was to fix what they saw as our misunderstanding of it, so they focused on that as the core of the problem.  All they had to do was not destroy the relays and we'd know the original ending problems didn't happen.  But, to the exclusion of almost all else, the EC was meant to mostly address our misunderstanding of the relays and the aftermath.  Did you need them to over-explain that?  Or would the act of not destroying the relays have worked for you?  How about one or two lines about affected tech where the kid says that tech will be affected and Shepard asks about the fate of the relays?  Did you need to have anything more than that?

What happened was, they were implying we were stupid and that somehow they never meant for the relay explosions to destroy anything-they didn't know why we thought that.  So they went overboard to make sure we "got it" in the EC.  That everything was peachy keen and the relays didn't blow the galaxy up.  What could have been achieved in a few short sentences became the focal point of the whole EC and that was the thing they thought mattered the most.

Beyond that, they changed the context of Joker running away (he still does, but now he does so with "orders"), the evac scene (more ridiculous and lacking context as to why that evac is so all fired important-two characters and their fate, but not the fate of Shepard), the Normandy Crash-lite scene, and refuse/reject.  All of this wrapped together is not so much some happy gift to fans, but a big ball of wax that says this is what you should have understood but didn't, morons.  Wanna shoot the kid or refuse to make a choice?  Stupid player-look what you did to the galaxy.  The torso-sure, the Normandy might rescue it because you morons, it wasn't stranded. 

[MegaSovereign]

The EC relay scene was a blatant retcon, not clarification. Yes I did need the extra context, I don't appreciate you implying I'm stupid for not getting it. There simply was not enough context behind the Catalyst's motives. People started making up their own interpretations about technological singularity but I personally needed something solid. The consequences of each choice was not fleshed out at all, laughably so to the point where you could put each ending side by freaking side and notice that most of the cutscenes were the exact same besides the color swap.

That and the ending did not have a proper epilogue. Pre-EC I never got to find out if I made the right call curing the genophage even with Wrex in charge. Or if the old ME2 crew made it out. The EC mitigates this even though it's pretty basic, but I appreciate the effort nonetheless. You make the EC sound like one big insult to the fans and this is where I draw the line. It's not even remotely reasonable to interpret it as such.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 29 décembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Peranor]

 
I thought the breath scene was utterly moronic pre-EC. And it was one thing I was really hoping they would expand upon in the EC. But my hopes was dashed once again.
Had it been a cliffhanger while waiting for the next part in Shepards story I would have thought the scene to be awesome. 
But knowing what we know. That this is it. This is the end of Shepards story. What happens next will never be told. It's just... It's just frustrating. I wish Bioware hadn't chickened out and just killed Shepard and be done with it instead.


You Maniacs! You blew Shepard up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

Modifié par anorling, 29 décembre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Michael_M88]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Michael_M88 wrote...

Well Shepard was revived even after cutting the oxygen from his brain, so apparently any thing is possible. Honestly I think Mass Effect threw logic out the window when they introduced a race of single gendered squid people that can become pregnant with their mind and can reproduce with any race or gender.

Actually they don't become pregnant that way.  They "read" the genetic coding of their partner and use that along with parthenogenesis (a real form of asexual reproduction) to create offspring.  I agree it's far-fetched but the idea is apparently some type of genetic engineering that they can use and then parthenogenesis happens.  They get no actual genetic material from their partners.

Yea that's what I meant. It's still a bit crazy, but didn't mean to get off topic I'm just saying Mass Effect always had some seriously out there things. It just didn't get crazy backwards until ME3's space magic, but yea.

[Michael_M88]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Michael_M88 wrote...

Well Shepard was revived even after cutting the oxygen from his brain. Honestly I think Mass Effect threw logic out the window when they introduced a race of single gendered squid people that can become pregnant with their mind and can reproduce with any race or gender.

For a second I thought you were talking about Reapers lol...

Oh lol Took me a second to get why, my bad.

[Archonsg]

It still all comes back to the "artistic integrity" of ME3 vision, its story which though at odds with itself for most parts, but consolidating after Chronos. 

The conflicting themes of course is Hope and Nihilism.
We *were* playing a game of hope, doing the "impossible" on so many levels that if you were to consider it all, is it really a surprise why players *still* believe that Shepard could have beaten the reapers without kowtowing to the Catalyst?

Then we have Priority Earth.
From this point on, every accomplishment Shepard achieved is Shadowed by a nihilistic view, sometimes subtle other times blatant as heck, with the repeated message "You are going to die and there's nothing you can do about it. "

Thus, our endings. Pre-EC, they were poster boys for Nihilism at the galactic scale.
Post EC, not so but retained the Shepard's fate in a nihilistic sand box. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, he makes a choice that should end his life via suicide.

However, the devs realized that this is too much. Thus they put in that "breath" scene to give a little hope.

So why not an expended rescue scene, why not show Shepard alive?
They choose not to as doing so fits the nihilistic view.
You might head canon that Shepard is rescued, you might point to a text from a guide book that says "Shepard lives", but the visual you got was Shepard broken, with severe blood loss in an unknown location, alone and dying.

I don't know about you guys, but I have been involved in disaster relief, more accurately, looking for survivors in an area after buildings have collapsed.

Bodies like Shepard, injuries like his, you do not last long without help. *getting* to the survivors is half the fight against time to save a life.
You do not have to have my memory of the smell of blood, excreta and death to put two and two together.

As it stands that breath scene without any expansion dictates that Shepard will die a lonely death out there in the rubble.

Nihilism at its best.
And keeping to ME3's vision with "artistic integrity".

Modifié par Archonsg, 29 décembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Bodies like Shepard, injuries like his, you do not last long without help. *getting* to the survivors is half the fight against time to save a life.

Well, these people don't have regenerative cybernetics.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bodies like Shepard, injuries like his, you do not last long without help. *getting* to the survivors is half the fight against time to save a life.

Well, these people don't have regenerative cybernetics.

Would his cybernetics be any good after being blasted by a reaper?

Not trying to argue with you or anything, just asking

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
 The discussions about the relays centered around the idiocy of showing us exploding relays and then trying to somehow say that people could actually survive that-crashed Normandy and so on.  Yes, that was discussed but in the context of saying "this proves how dumb the endings are" and not that people needed to be hand fed the notion that the galaxy survived (complete with the cutscenes and slide shows we have now).  

So people didn't actually think that the relays had actually destroyed whole systems? Good to know. One of the problems with these boards is that people say stuff they don't actually mean. It was always obvious that the relays hadn't destroyed systems since we can see the systems not beng destroyed, but I guess saying that planets were destroyed sounds more impressive than saying "that explosion effect was overdone since the relays didn't actually explode."

I fully remember the discussions over it.  What people wanted was an ending that made sense and that didn't show Joker running away (out of character), stranded on an unknown planet with people that logically should have all died (relays) or would die since not everyone could eat the same food even if there was food.

How did people get to the italed part? The jungle planet couldn't be all that far from Earth since Charon's only a secondary relay. Even Team Dextro would be OK since the quarian liveships were at Earth.

[Archonsg]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bodies like Shepard, injuries like his, you do not last long without help. *getting* to the survivors is half the fight against time to save a life.

Well, these people don't have regenerative cybernetics.

The human body has about 5 litres of blood.
You go into shock after loosing a litre or more,whether bleeding externally such as from cuts and gunshot wounds or internally from trauma to your gastrointestinal tract. More so if organs are damaged.

Shepard was already in the process of shock before meeting the Catalyst. I attribute adrenaline, will power and space magic that brought Shepard back up when glowchild said "wake up". 

Unless the rules of logic changed, Shepard was loosing blood faster then his "enhancements" can make up for, otherwise he wouldn't have gone into shock.

Still leaves Shepard alone, without help and dead without immediate attention.

Modifié par Archonsg, 29 décembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[Steelcan]

Archonsg wrote...

The human body has about 5 litres of blood.
You go into shock after loosing a litre or more,whether bleeding externally such as from cuts and gunshot wounds or internally from trauma to your gastrointestinal tract. More so if organs are damaged.

Shepard was already in the process of shock before meeting the Catalyst. I attribute adrenaline, will power and space magic that brought Shepard back up when glowchild said "wake up". 

Unless the rules of logic changed, Shepard was loosing blood faster then his "enhancements" can make up for, otherwise he wouldn't have gone into shock.

Still leaves Shepard alone, without help and dead without immediate attention.

You see your making an assumption.m that the endings are logical and follow real life.  They don't, you just need to accept that.  Should Shepard be alive?  No, but he is.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

So people didn't actually think that the relays had actually destroyed whole systems? Good to know. One of the problems with these boards is that people say stuff they don't actually mean. It was always obvious that the relays hadn't destroyed systems since we can see the systems not beng destroyed, but I guess saying that planets were destroyed sounds more impressive than saying "that explosion effect was overdone since the relays didn't actually explode."

We were shown the relays blowing up, but were told they didn't destroy planets, Even though Arrival told us differently.

It's one thing I'll concede that EC actually helped with

I fully remember the discussions over it.  What people wanted was an ending that made sense and that didn't show Joker running away (out of character), stranded on an unknown planet with people that logically should have all died (relays) or would die since not everyone could eat the same food even if there was food.

How did people get to the italed part? The jungle planet couldn't be all that far from Earth since Charon's only a secondary relay. Even Team Dextro would be OK since the quarian liveships were at Earth.

No engines, no Mass Relays, we didnt' even know what system they were in or how far from help they might be.  And of course with exploding relays, the state of the liveships was in question too.


It's funny how Bioware chose to be explicit in showing the Normandy taking off again in EC, but still couldn't be bothered to show Shepard being rescued...

[Archonsg]

Steelcan wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

The human body has about 5 litres of blood.
You go into shock after loosing a litre or more,whether bleeding externally such as from cuts and gunshot wounds or internally from trauma to your gastrointestinal tract. More so if organs are damaged.

Shepard was already in the process of shock before meeting the Catalyst. I attribute adrenaline, will power and space magic that brought Shepard back up when glowchild said "wake up". 

Unless the rules of logic changed, Shepard was loosing blood faster then his "enhancements" can make up for, otherwise he wouldn't have gone into shock.

Still leaves Shepard alone, without help and dead without immediate attention.

You see your making an assumption.m that the endings are logical and follow real life.  They don't, you just need to accept that.  Should Shepard be alive?  No, but he is.

Oh, but I assume nothing. It is a game. And as you said game logic, and reality can be different than real life.

However even so, it has its own sets of rules.
We see a good many criticize ME3's narrative and for good reason.
The breath scene was poorly done.
The meeting with starbrat is poorly done.

Had Bioware included proper narrative for that Breath scene, we won't be here talking about it.

Besides, never thought that an education and a logical mind would be detrimental to my enjoying a game.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bottom line if you want Shepard to survive the ending, Refuse. You can then head canon being picked up by the Normandy and getting out of the system and dropping time capsules. Who knows? You could even head canon dying of old age.

[Archonsg]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Bottom line if you want Shepard to survive the ending, Refuse. You can then head canon being picked up by the Normandy and getting out of the system and dropping time capsules. Who knows? You could even head canon dying of old age.

MEHEM / Marauder Shields for my ending.

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...

You see your making an assumption.m that the endings are logical and follow real life.  They don't, you just need to accept that.  Should Shepard be alive?  No, but he is.

I've seen this happen with a few folks. I wonder if it's something about games that makes people treat them like they're...simulations? Some of us seem to get confused when playing games in a way that I've never seen anyone get confused when at the movies or while watching TV.

Or it could be just a message board thing.... you know, saying "Shepard is dead" because that's got a lot more zip than saying that " the breath scene wasn't very well executed."

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 décembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Archonsg wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Bottom line if you want Shepard to survive the ending, Refuse. You can then head canon being picked up by the Normandy and getting out of the system and dropping time capsules. Who knows? You could even head canon dying of old age.

MEHEM / Marauder Shields for my ending.

Of course for those of us in the "master race" of PC owners.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...
Or it could be just a message board thing.... you know, saying "Shepard is dead" because that's got a lot more zip than saying that " the breath scene wasn't very well executed."

And antienders are called nitpicky 

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Or it could be just a message board thing.... you know, saying "Shepard is dead" because that's got a lot more zip than saying that " the breath scene wasn't very well executed."

And antienders are called nitpicky 

Zing!

I've probably just been here too much or something, but lately I've been having real trouble telling apart the serious arguments and the overblown rhetoric. In a month or two I'll probably end up like Sylvius the Mad, who only posts the literal truth and assumes everyone else does too. (Guess he's dumped us for the DA3 board)