482 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

I fully remember the discussions over it.  What people wanted was an ending that made sense and that didn't show Joker running away (out of character), stranded on an unknown planet with people that logically should have all died (relays) or would die since not everyone could eat the same food even if there was food.

How did people get to the italed part? The jungle planet couldn't be all that far from Earth since Charon's only a secondary relay. Even Team Dextro would be OK since the quarian liveships were at Earth.

The Normandy left the system via FTL - they're never seen entering the relay. The only habitable planet within FTL range of Earth as established in Mass Effect canon is in the Alpha Centauri system (from Cerberus Daily News - search Manswell Expedition), which mean the Normandy is less than half a day away from Earth at cruising speed. Just stack on however long it takes them to do whatever repairs they set down for, and that's how long it would take them to get back.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 29 décembre 2012 - 07:47 .

[Jackal13th]

crimzontearz wrote...

Jackal13th wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

The breath scene is exactly the same thing as done in X-Men 3 (a terrible movie by the way), it is a shallow attempt to keep the door open for sequels incase the money cow isn't dead yet. Does it make sense? No, does that matter from the executives' perspective? Also no.

I agree it is a just in case the Masseffect 4 does not do too good .

lol....you mean like Reach?

yea like reach if the mass effect 4 does not do to good or reach enough players then o well .

[Ultranovae]

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

It doesn't really matter how he made it back on earth, literary speaking it's just one of those ambiguous scenes that are left to interpretation.
That being said, here's a simple explanation: Shepard was not killed by the engulfing flames from shooting the tube. Seeing he was still alive, the catalyst did his last act of kindness and let him ride the beam back to earth. Or perhaps after the explosion left Shepard unconscious the catalyst himself sent Shepard down the beam.
If there were to be a theory about it, I think that would be it.
But, since it is a scene mostly given to interpretation, lets interpret some things, why let Shepard live in the destroy ending alone? What does it accomplish? What does it sacrifice?

Modifié par Ultranovae, 29 décembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Ultranovae]

I guess the whole Martyr thing is not everyone's cup of tea, I find quite beautiful to Give your life for others. I think we all have people we would gladly give our lives for. If you don't then I'm sorry.
It's also good to see a bit of vague ambiguity since it sparks conversations like the ones we're having now. A good work of fiction should make you feel bad that is over, think about life, an want to go out there and live it.

Modifié par Ultranovae, 29 décembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[Peranor]

Ultranovae wrote...

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

It doesn't really matter how he made it back on earth, literary speaking it's just one of those ambiguous scenes that are left to interpretation.
That being said, here's a simple explanation: Shepard was not killed by the engulfing flames from shooting the tube. Seeing he was still alive, the catalyst did his last act of kindness and let him ride the beam back to earth. Or perhaps after the explosion left Shepard unconscious the catalyst himself sent Shepard down the beam.
If there were to be a theory about it, I think that would be it.
But, since it is a scene mostly given to interpretation, lets interpret some things, why let Shepard live in the destroy ending alone? What does it accomplish? What does it sacrifice?

Oh, the "spoon fed" argument again. /golfclap
Try to follow the thread next time.

And the Catalyst giving Shepard a ride back to earth? Really?

[crimzontearz]

Jackal13th wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Jackal13th wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

The breath scene is exactly the same thing as done in X-Men 3 (a terrible movie by the way), it is a shallow attempt to keep the door open for sequels incase the money cow isn't dead yet. Does it make sense? No, does that matter from the executives' perspective? Also no.

I agree it is a just in case the Masseffect 4 does not do too good .

lol....you mean like Reach?

yea like reach if the mass effect 4 does not do to good or reach enough players then o well .

I would not mind that happening


 
I could pull a Nelson and come back just to enjoy the fact Mac had to eat crow and bring Shepard back OR he was shoved aside and some one more competent was put in his place who made the call


 
Either way I would LOL

[crimzontearz]

Ultranovae wrote...

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

It doesn't really matter how he made it back on earth, literary speaking it's just one of those ambiguous scenes that are left to interpretation.
That being said, here's a simple explanation: Shepard was not killed by the engulfing flames from shooting the tube. Seeing he was still alive, the catalyst did his last act of kindness and let him ride the beam back to earth. Or perhaps after the explosion left Shepard unconscious the catalyst himself sent Shepard down the beam.
If there were to be a theory about it, I think that would be it.
But, since it is a scene mostly given to interpretation, lets interpret some things, why let Shepard live in the destroy ending alone? What does it accomplish? What does it sacrifice?

rule #1 of RPGS (especially pnp)


 
IF THE STORYTELLERS DO NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY SOMETHING HAPPENS THEN IT DID NOT


 
Capped for emphasis.


 
Also, you are talking about a studio who will retcon all sort of things and be happy with it even if they were quite clear to begin with, forgive me if I do not take ambiguity kindly to them especially since they are going out of their way to say PUBLICLY that the breath scene could be Shepard's last breath


 
good try tho

Modifié par crimzontearz, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:14 .

[crimzontearz]

Ultranovae wrote...

I guess the whole Martyr thing is not everyone's cup of tea, I find quite beautiful to Give your life for others. I think we all have people we would gladly give our lives for. If you don't then I'm sorry.
It's also good to see a bit of vague ambiguity since it sparks conversations like the ones we're having now. A good work of fiction should make you feel bad that is over, think about life, an want to go out there and live it.

there is good ambiguity, (They call me Prophet) and there is ridiculously upsetting ambiguity (GASP)

[MacroSpamMK]

After shooting the pipes and surviving the initial smaller explosion, Shepard takes a running jump and dives out of the Control Tower. He plummets past the Citadel and into the Earth's atmosphere completely ignoring gravity (with the Suicide Mission OST playing) and lands in London making a decent sized crater. Shepard's squad with the LI and a search crew come across the crater and notice Shepard's dogtags lying in the rubble. They assume he is dead and the LI begins to cry.

It then switches to Shepard waking up (the breathe scene), he flips onto his feet and backflips off the rubble but fails the landing and breaks his arm. Then Anderson's ghost sees movement in the rubble and then Shepard emerges just like he did in Mass Effect 1. Everyone is extremely glad to see him, and him and his LI have sex on the ground in front of everyone.

[riesenwiesel]

Pretty sure it was only an easter egg, originally .

[Dr_Extrem]

riesenwiesel wrote...

Pretty sure it was only an easter egg, originally .

easter eggs are nice .. just like the starcraft easter egg in warcraft 3.

this one backfired heavily. if your easter egg looks like a cliffhanger, people will se it as one.

[crimzontearz]

riesenwiesel wrote...

Pretty sure it was only an easter egg, originally .

If I remember correctly it was first described by a dev as ( and I quote)


 





Brenon Holmes
09:40 AM 2012-03-06
So yeah, there's a secret Shepard lives ending - it's not super happy though. It's more like a movie trailer thing where it hints at a sequel (there is no sequel, afaik - I'm just using it to illustrate the type of cinematic).


 

 
Of course that company line has changed now


 
Thank you Bioware, thank you so ****ing much

[Peranor]

crimzontearz wrote...

riesenwiesel wrote...

Pretty sure it was only an easter egg, originally .

If I remember correctly it was first described by a dev as ( and I quote)


 





Brenon Holmes
09:40 AM 2012-03-06
So yeah, there's a secret Shepard lives ending - it's not super happy though. It's more like a movie trailer thing where it hints at a sequel (there is no sequel, afaik - I'm just using it to illustrate the type of cinematic).


 

 
Of course that company line has changed now


 
Thank you Bioware, thank you so ****ing much

It's a scene that hints at a sequel when they at the same time tells you that there will be no sequel.

Modifié par anorling, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:55 .

[Reorte]

Ultranovae wrote...

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

As long as there's an obvious and plausible explanation that's basic and routine enough to not be shown it doesn't need to be shown but that's not the same as headcanoning something wildly implausible in there and then starting to  bleat on about people wanting to be spoon-fed when they rightly question how rather unlikely events actually  happened. By your logic asking to see more of the whole series than "Reapers turn up, Reapers kill people, Reapers stop killing people" is enough.

[crimzontearz]

anorling wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

riesenwiesel wrote...

Pretty sure it was only an easter egg, originally .

If I remember correctly it was first described by a dev as ( and I quote)


 





Brenon Holmes
09:40 AM 2012-03-06
So yeah, there's a secret Shepard lives ending - it's not super happy though. It's more like a movie trailer thing where it hints at a sequel (there is no sequel, afaik - I'm just using it to illustrate the type of cinematic).


 

 
Of course that company line has changed now


 
Thank you Bioware, thank you so ****ing much

It's a scene that hints at a sequel when they at the same time tells you that there will be no sequel.

he was describing its look not its purpose


 
Still....utter BS

[Peranor]

Reorte wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

As long as there's an obvious and plausible explanation that's basic and routine enough to not be shown it doesn't need to be shown but that's not the same as headcanoning something wildly implausible in there and then starting to  bleat on about people wanting to be spoon-fed when they rightly question how rather unlikely events actually  happened. By your logic asking to see more of the whole series than "Reapers turn up, Reapers kill people, Reapers stop killing people" is enough.

Indeed. People that defend the breath scene are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the whole story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sense, and then they call them geniuses for it.

Modifié par anorling, 30 décembre 2012 - 01:28 .

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The EC relay scene was a blatant retcon, not clarification. Yes I did need the extra context, I don't appreciate you implying I'm stupid for not getting it. There simply was not enough context behind the Catalyst's motives. People started making up their own interpretations about technological singularity but I personally needed something solid. The consequences of each choice was not fleshed out at all, laughably so to the point where you could put each ending side by freaking side and notice that most of the cutscenes were the exact same besides the color swap.

That and the ending did not have a proper epilogue. Pre-EC I never got to find out if I made the right call curing the genophage even with Wrex in charge. Or if the old ME2 crew made it out. The EC mitigates this even though it's pretty basic, but I appreciate the effort nonetheless. You make the EC sound like one big insult to the fans and this is where I draw the line. It's not even remotely reasonable to interpret it as such.

I wasn't implying anything.  I was sincerely asking the question if you needed it to be emphasized so starkly or so emphatically or if them merely changing the story to say that some tech or some collateral damage happened and not the destruction of the relays.  I'm saying BW overreacted to it all by thinking it was necessary to bludgeon us over the head with a lot of things to "prove" the relays weren't exploding and destroying the galaxy.  I was not saying the problem was yours.  I'm saying that BW was trying to say that it was your problem and my problem for not understanding something they meant and for (in their opinion) inferring the galaxy was destroyed because of the relays.  You have it backwards.  Fans (you included) understood the implications of the relays exploding in the original endings, but BW tried to say that we did not.  So, much of the EC is just BW trying to show we misunderstood that.

I'm in complete agreement with you but I think they put too much emphasis on it when all they had to do was change what they showed and some dialogue to indicate it never happened.  I meant no insult to you at all.

My big problem with the endings includes the fact that even if you made the right choice in curing the genophage there's no context for thinking that any of the ending choices make the cure anything other than futile.  And I was not saying that we didn't need to have confirmation that our other choices in the game mattered-I'm saying that we do need to have that confirmation and the EC did not give that.  Main case in point-geth/quarian, but great we get to see a lot of Krogan stuff.  Well, I cared for more people than just the Krogan, but even so pick Synthesis and then see it come to fruition as EDI says-transcend mortality.  Honestly, then tell me what good was done in curing the genophage.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 décembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[3DandBeyond]

anorling wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

As long as there's an obvious and plausible explanation that's basic and routine enough to not be shown it doesn't need to be shown but that's not the same as headcanoning something wildly implausible in there and then starting to  bleat on about people wanting to be spoon-fed when they rightly question how rather unlikely events actually  happened. By your logic asking to see more of the whole series than "Reapers turn up, Reapers kill people, Reapers stop killing people" is enough.

Indeed. People that defend the breath scene are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the whole story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and then they call them geniuses for it.

This is the core of the issue.  It's one thing to have that torso ending after being given enough information to trust the choices are real, know that synthetic tech inside people will not explode, implode, or just shut off, and then to not see the tube explode all around Shepard.  As well as to see people searching the rubble and a scene of the Normandy back near the citadel with some overlay of a voice (Joker, maybe) telling the LI that people are searching for survivors.  That then might have been enough relevant information to be able to find the torso more acceptable.

It's another thing to lead people to believe that Shepard's innards might go kapooie, to see an explosion, to not know if the choices are real, to not really know what they will do, to see the Normandy after crashing due to a what, shockwave, taking off from some unknown planet an unknown distance away due to the psychic connection with someone, anyone-LI or friend, and then see the torso half-buried in rubble that is at some unknown location.

And we are told a lot of garbage by the kid.  Synthetics targeted, tech damaged.  Ok, guess what-tech is synthetic. 

The other thing is this is a visual media and it's interactive.  The idea then is that it is preferable to end such things with an exclamation point rather than a question mark.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

From the Operation Prophecy success announcement:

"Earth remains the symbol of what we can accomplish and what we cannot accomplish – yet."

Sounds like BioWare may finally be coming around to the recognition that the ending must be fixed to allow a "win" option. It is inevitable because such a large number of core fans demand it. And before the "you are whiners" posts commence, I suspect that if you want to keep the current endings you "claim" to love, you will be able to do so. So that involuntary synthesis DNA re-write that you think was just so artsy and rewarding will likely be yours for eternity, if you truly want it.

[AlanC9]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
The Normandy left the system via FTL - they're never seen entering the relay.The only habitable planet within FTL range of Earth as established in Mass Effect canon is in the Alpha Centauri system (from Cerberus Daily News - search Manswell Expedition), which mean the Normandy is less than half a day away from Earth at cruising speed. Just stack on however long it takes them to do whatever repairs they set down for, and that's how long it would take them to get back.

This is also a plausible reading of the scene. Probably better than mine -- how long do relay transits take, anyway?

Anyway the idea that they're lost somewhere in uncharted space never made any sense at all.

[Jadebaby]

C'mon, have you seen Synthesis? Clearly BioWare forgot that there's that word called science in their science fiction.

Synthesis and The breathe scene are incredibly stupid.

[Jadebaby]

AlanC9 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
The Normandy left the system via FTL - they're never seen entering the relay.The only habitable planet within FTL range of Earth as established in Mass Effect canon is in the Alpha Centauri system (from Cerberus Daily News - search Manswell Expedition), which mean the Normandy is less than half a day away from Earth at cruising speed. Just stack on however long it takes them to do whatever repairs they set down for, and that's how long it would take them to get back.

This is also a plausible reading of the scene. Probably better than mine -- how long do relay transits take, anyway?

Anyway the idea that they're lost somewhere in uncharted space never made any sense at all.

No, it's not really. That relay beam was going MUCH faster than FTL.

Just look at the galaxy map when it shows them exploding.

[Dr_Extrem]

relay tranasits are really fast. it is a corridor of virtually massless space. otherwhise, we would collide with stuff while flying. whis would be one short trip.

traveling through this virtually massless corridor, would be very fast - minutes i guess.


so .. even if the relays are gone. turians would not have to die, if you saved the quarians - they brought their life ships with them to sol. natural food in not a problem. even if the quarians are dead, dextro amino protiens can be synthesised. not tasty - but better than dying.

we have even the possibility to build a new colony on "gilligans planet". mars is not that bad .. a bit sandy and stormy maybe.

the fleets at sol did never bother me.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Peranor]

3DandBeyond wrote...

anorling wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

see this is why writing in video games suck, because the writers need to cater to an audience that needs everything spoon fed to them in order to be understood.

As long as there's an obvious and plausible explanation that's basic and routine enough to not be shown it doesn't need to be shown but that's not the same as headcanoning something wildly implausible in there and then starting to  bleat on about people wanting to be spoon-fed when they rightly question how rather unlikely events actually  happened. By your logic asking to see more of the whole series than "Reapers turn up, Reapers kill people, Reapers stop killing people" is enough.

Indeed. People that defend the breath scene are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the whole story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and then they call them geniuses for it.

This is the core of the issue.  It's one thing to have that torso ending after being given enough information to trust the choices are real, know that synthetic tech inside people will not explode, implode, or just shut off, and then to not see the tube explode all around Shepard.  As well as to see people searching the rubble and a scene of the Normandy back near the citadel with some overlay of a voice (Joker, maybe) telling the LI that people are searching for survivors.  That then might have been enough relevant information to be able to find the torso more acceptable.

It's another thing to lead people to believe that Shepard's innards might go kapooie, to see an explosion, to not know if the choices are real, to not really know what they will do, to see the Normandy after crashing due to a what, shockwave, taking off from some unknown planet an unknown distance away due to the psychic connection with someone, anyone-LI or friend, and then see the torso half-buried in rubble that is at some unknown location.

And we are told a lot of garbage by the kid.  Synthetics targeted, tech damaged.  Ok, guess what-tech is synthetic. 

The other thing is this is a visual media and it's interactive.  The idea then is that it is preferable to end such things with an exclamation point rather than a question mark.

Yeah. Video games is a visual interactive media. I'm still surprised that it comes as a shock to some people that other people may actually wan't to see what happens. Not make it up in their minds.
it's not like it's an unrealistic expectation or anything.