482 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Legion's geth seek to atone for killing so many, and I give them that chance. The VI's geth don't want peace - they want the Quarians dead, and in consideration of what they've already done, their fate is well-earned.

The quarians did try genocide first. Twice, as a matter of fact.

I have to go, but it can't be simpified that easily, because mages have the potential to be extremely dangerous. Letting magets roam free would be like letting guns be free to anyone and everyone without things like permits and background checks and such. It's just not that simple.

That's a separate issue from the templars having anything to do with it. Cooler heads can contemplate the mage question when the templars have been consigned to history's trash heap.

[DeinonSlayer]

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It's clear that Bioware didn't want one "best" ending like they had in ME2. They wanted one which was much more gray, something that people could discuss and talk about without having one "right" ending, and if you didn't do exactly that, well then you did something "wrong."

I can salute the attempt, but even now the result is still not very good.

The endings strayed too close to players' Moral Event Horizon 

In my canon playthrough, I agreed Gerrel did the right thing in attacking the Dreadnought. I didn't shoot Ashley, but I told Garrus that if I had to, I would. I also agreed with Garrus that sometimes the ruthless calculus of war cannot be avoided.

I am not a Paragon. But I guess I have a base mindset better suited for the price demanded in the end.

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It's clear that Bioware didn't want one "best" ending like they had in ME2. They wanted one which was much more gray, something that people could discuss and talk about without having one "right" ending, and if you didn't do exactly that, well then you did something "wrong."

I can salute the attempt, but even now the result is still not very good.

The endings strayed too close to players' Moral Event Horizon 

In my canon playthrough, I agreed Gerrel did the right thing in attacking the Dreadnought. I didn't shoot Ashley, but I told Garrus that if I had to, I would. I also agreed with Garrus that sometimes the ruthless calculus of war cannot be avoided.

I am not a Paragon. But I guess I have a base mindset better suited for the price demanded in the end.

A Paragon can well have a base mindset entirely suited to the price demanded at the end. As I've shown.

[Biokiipper]

Theres one problem with all this end scene: If its too hard to understand or too open to diferent interpretations, its simply poorly writen, its bad.

The game is awesome, except for some parts of the endings,

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Legion's geth seek to atone for killing so many, and I give them that chance. The VI's geth don't want peace - they want the Quarians dead, and in consideration of what they've already done, their fate is well-earned.

The quarians did try genocide first. Twice, as a matter of fact.

Not all of them wanted to in either war. The Geth ultimately targeted all of them in the first war - and the VI will kill the rest of them in the second with no remorse if given half a chance.

I view the Geth as a collective gestalt entity personified by either Legion or the VI (if Legion is there, the Collective basically pulls an EDI and chooses to be a good person). The Collective is a three-hundred-year-old war criminal guilty of killing billions. Siding with the Reapers is only the latest offense. Taking all considerations about the trustworthiness of the Reaper code itself out of the equation, Legion is repentant and has earned a second chance. The VI is not, and has not.

You can argue all you want that the VI deserves to live, but I will not under any circumstances choose Skynet's second coming over civilians whose only crime is having been dragged along for the ride.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:31 .

[Xilizhra]

You can argue all you want that the VI deserves to live, but I will not under any circumstances choose Skynet's second coming over civilians whose only crime is having been dragged along for the ride.

Why do you even want to make the choice?

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can argue all you want that the VI deserves to live, but I will not under any circumstances choose Skynet's second coming over civilians whose only crime is having been dragged along for the ride.

Why do you even want to make the choice?

Perfect playthroughs are boring. I've lost people in each for realism and variety's sake (I never have, and never will, do a pure Paragon or Renegade playthrough - I refuse to let the game think for me; each of the below has a different personality which guides their actions). ME3 is pretty different depending on who makes it to the third game - it adds replay value.

1) Nolan/Infiltrator: Saved Wrex. Saved Maelon's data. Lost Legion. Lost Jack. Cured Genophage. Destroyed Geth. Destroyed Reapers.
2) Laura/Engineer: Lost Wrex. Saved Maelon's data. Left Zaeed to burn. Cured Genophage. Made peace. Control.
3) Jayne/Soldier (FailShep): Saved Wrex. Lost Kirrahe. Never did Mordin's loyalty mission. Sold Legion. Chose Morinth over Samara. Lost Mordin. Lost Thane. Lost Jack. Lost Kasumi. Shot Wiks. Shot VI. Shot Starbrat.
4) Jane/Vanguard: Lost Wrex. Destroyed Maelon's data. Convinced Mordin to back down. On track to peace. (Game in progress).

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Perfect playthroughs are boring. I've lost people in each for realism and variety's sake (I never have, and never will, do a pure Paragon or Renegade playthrough - I refuse to let the game think for me; each of the below has a different personality which guides their actions). ME3 is pretty different depending on who makes it to the third game - it adds replay value.

I only have one Shepard, though I change her class from time to time. And I'm fine with replaying the same decisions over and over (although I did change my mind once, with the Collector base).

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Perfect playthroughs are boring. I've lost people in each for realism and variety's sake (I never have, and never will, do a pure Paragon or Renegade playthrough - I refuse to let the game think for me; each of the below has a different personality which guides their actions). ME3 is pretty different depending on who makes it to the third game - it adds replay value.

I only have one Shepard, though I change her class from time to time. And I'm fine with replaying the same decisions over and over (although I did change my mind once, with the Collector base).

Though Nolan is most in line with my own opinions, I've roleplayed Shepards who do things I, personally, would never do (particularly Jayne). It's interesting to do this - sometimes I've found dialogue that's more "in-character" than what I'd chosen the first time around.

Grissom Academy, for example. If Jack is NOT there, Rodriquez asks Shepard a very important question: Shepard's attitude on killing. Rodriquez killed for the first time defending herself from Cerberus, she's feeling pretty bad, and asks Shepard how (s)he felt the first time. To paraphrase:

Paragon: "I'd be worried if you didn't. It doesn't get any easier."
Renegade: "Forget about him - I guarantee he wouldn't remember you."

I've had two Shepards answer this question differently. Rodriquez is scared of the upcoming fight if you go with the Paragon answer. If you go with the Renegade answer, she's primed for it. Interactions like this would be missed in a "perfect" playthrough where everyone survives. This kind of dialogue goes a long way towards defining who your character is.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Perfect playthroughs are boring. I've lost people in each for realism and variety's sake (I never have, and never will, do a pure Paragon or Renegade playthrough - I refuse to let the game think for me; each of the below has a different personality which guides their actions). ME3 is pretty different depending on who makes it to the third game - it adds replay value.

I only have one Shepard, though I change her class from time to time. And I'm fine with replaying the same decisions over and over (although I did change my mind once, with the Collector base).

Though Nolan is most in line with my own opinions, I've roleplayed Shepards who do things I, personally, would never do (particularly Jayne). It's interesting to do this - sometimes I've found dialogue that's more "in-character" than what I'd chosen the first time around.

Grissom Academy, for example. If Jack is NOT there, Rodriquez asks Shepard a very important question: Shepard's attitude on killing. Rodriquez killed for the first time defending herself from Cerberus, she's feeling pretty bad, and asks Shepard how (s)he felt the first time. To paraphrase:

Paragon: "I'd be worried if you didn't. It doesn't get any easier."
Renegade: "Forget about him - I guarantee he wouldn't remember you."

I've had two Shepards answer this question differently. Rodriquez is scared of the upcoming fight if you go with the Paragon answer. If you go with the Renegade answer, she's primed for it. Interactions like this would be missed in a "perfect" playthrough where everyone survives. This kind of dialogue goes a long way towards defining who your character is.

Problematically, the first one is objectively wrong and the second is just unpleasant, so I really don't feel like I missed much by not getting this not-well-set-up set of answers.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Perfect playthroughs are boring. I've lost people in each for realism and variety's sake (I never have, and never will, do a pure Paragon or Renegade playthrough - I refuse to let the game think for me; each of the below has a different personality which guides their actions). ME3 is pretty different depending on who makes it to the third game - it adds replay value.

I only have one Shepard, though I change her class from time to time. And I'm fine with replaying the same decisions over and over (although I did change my mind once, with the Collector base).

Though Nolan is most in line with my own opinions, I've roleplayed Shepards who do things I, personally, would never do (particularly Jayne). It's interesting to do this - sometimes I've found dialogue that's more "in-character" than what I'd chosen the first time around.

Grissom Academy, for example. If Jack is NOT there, Rodriquez asks Shepard a very important question: Shepard's attitude on killing. Rodriquez killed for the first time defending herself from Cerberus, she's feeling pretty bad, and asks Shepard how (s)he felt the first time. To paraphrase:

Paragon: "I'd be worried if you didn't. It doesn't get any easier."
Renegade: "Forget about him - I guarantee he wouldn't remember you."

I've had two Shepards answer this question differently. Rodriquez is scared of the upcoming fight if you go with the Paragon answer. If you go with the Renegade answer, she's primed for it. Interactions like this would be missed in a "perfect" playthrough where everyone survives. This kind of dialogue goes a long way towards defining who your character is.

Problematically, the first one is objectively wrong and the second is just unpleasant, so I really don't feel like I missed much by not getting this not-well-set-up set of answers.

My paraphrase was pretty rough. I thought it was actually a pretty good question for Shepard to be confronted with. For a Shepard with the personality and likeness of Jayne Cobb, the second answer was pretty appropriate.

...you honestly say and do the exact same thing every single time you play? How can that stay interesting? There's so much more to these games. I notice with my games I've been doing a spread, trying to see as much content as possible. No two Shepards romance the same person. There are, however, some things I simply will not do; lines I won't cross - ex: casually screwing Jack, murdering Falere, exterminating the Quarians, Synthesis, etc.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:06 .

[Xilizhra]

...you honestly say and do the exact same thing every single time you play? How can that stay interesting? There's so much more to these games. I notice with my games I've been doing a spread, trying to see as much content as possible. No two Shepards romance the same person. There are, however, some things I simply will not do; lines I won't cross - ex: casually screwing Jack, murdering Falere, exterminating the Quarians, Synthesis, etc.

There's nothing else I enjoy. Having Liara be lonely? Killing off the Council? Screwing people over in various Renegaded ways? I don't want to experience any of this.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

...you honestly say and do the exact same thing every single time you play? How can that stay interesting? There's so much more to these games. I notice with my games I've been doing a spread, trying to see as much content as possible. No two Shepards romance the same person. There are, however, some things I simply will not do; lines I won't cross - ex: casually screwing Jack, murdering Falere, exterminating the Quarians, Synthesis, etc.

There's nothing else I enjoy. Having Liara be lonely? Killing off the Council? Screwing people over in various Renegaded ways? I don't want to experience any of this.

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and  there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

Javik will help keep Liara warm.



(In all fairness, I consider Tali my canon romance, but I only have one Shepard who romances her. The others don't fit. You won't feel bad about walking a different path. I actually grinned when Jayne punched Manuel on Eden Prime.)

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[Xilizhra]

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.

See, I can't do that. To me, mindlessly choosing Paragon every single time would feel like letting the game tell me what to do, say, and think. My canon Shepard, the one who acts most like me, agrees with Gerrel about the Dreadnought. All three of my other Shepards don't. I'm able to separate Shepard from myself, and acknowledge that I'm playing a character who does not act like me, but who has a personality I established. You'll see a lot more of the game that way.

More to the point, "pure paragon" is too "touchy-feely" for me. I appreciated that ME3 dumped most of the trollish ME2 Renegade behavior in favor of someone who acts more like a professional.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:20 .

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.

I always took a couple of renegade related intimidation options and interrupts...

like on Mordin's loyalty mission.....Chong.....Kai Leng's death

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.

See, I can't do that. To me, mindlessly choosing Paragon every single time would feel like letting the game tell me what to do, say, and think. My canon Shepard, the one who acts most like me, agrees with Gerrel about the Dreadnought. All three of my other Shepards don't. I'm able to separate Shepard from myself, and acknowledge that I'm playing a character who does not act like me, but who has a personality I established. You'll see a lot more of the game that way.

I don't doubt. I just... don't really want to see it. It's not how I want the universe to work out.

More to the point, "pure paragon" is too "touchy-feely" for me. I
appreciated that ME3 dumped most of the trollish ME2 Renegade behavior
in favor of someone who acts more like a professional.

I've never found Paragon to be unprofessional.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.

See, I can't do that. To me, mindlessly choosing Paragon every single time would feel like letting the game tell me what to do, say, and think. My canon Shepard, the one who acts most like me, agrees with Gerrel about the Dreadnought. All three of my other Shepards don't. I'm able to separate Shepard from myself, and acknowledge that I'm playing a character who does not act like me, but who has a personality I established. You'll see a lot more of the game that way.

I don't doubt. I just... don't really want to see it. It's not how I want the universe to work out.

More to the point, "pure paragon" is too "touchy-feely" for me. I
appreciated that ME3 dumped most of the trollish ME2 Renegade behavior
in favor of someone who acts more like a professional.

I've never found Paragon to be unprofessional.

I like this human, she speaks my very thoughts

[Iakus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.

I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.

See, I can't do that. To me, mindlessly choosing Paragon every single time would feel like letting the game tell me what to do, say, and think. My canon Shepard, the one who acts most like me, agrees with Gerrel about the Dreadnought. All three of my other Shepards don't. I'm able to separate Shepard from myself, and acknowledge that I'm playing a character who does not act like me, but who has a personality I established. You'll see a lot more of the game that way.

More to the point, "pure paragon" is too "touchy-feely" for me. I appreciated that ME3 dumped most of the trollish ME2 Renegade behavior in favor of someone who acts more like a professional.

I've tried doing renegade runs, and I simply can't.  Sure some dialogues and interrupts work for me, or the occasional side mission.  But in the end I want to play a hero.  Not some bloodthirsty antihero.  I can't execute Shiala.  I can't hand Veetor over to Cerberus.  And I'm certainly not going to gun down the VS.  

I take renegade responses when my Shepard shuld feel annoyed.  I take renegade interrupts when it makes sense to get the jump on the enemy.  But going further than that feels like I'm playing some kind of sociopath.

 One reason why I miss neutral responses.  Chances to sound thoughtful without souunding overly naive.

[DeinonSlayer]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]DeinonSlayer wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]How can you know if you don't try? Do not fear the bottom of the dialogue wheel. There's an entire line of rational argument made by Shepard to which you're never exposed - there may be times you agree with that logic more than the path you've never permitted yourself to stray from, and there's a 93% chance picking a Renegade choice won't make Shepard punch someone.[/quote]
I don't do Renegade, but for two options: encouraging Jack's kids on (though the ending slide with her standing over a graveyard makes me suspect I won't do that anymore), and saving the Collector base. Apart from that, it's not my thing.
Well, yelling at TIM once on the ship too.[/quote]See, I can't do that. To me, mindlessly choosing Paragon every single time would feel like letting the game tell me what to do, say, and think. My canon Shepard, the one who acts most like me, agrees with Gerrel about the Dreadnought. All three of my other Shepards don't. I'm able to separate Shepard from myself, and acknowledge that I'm playing a character who does not act like me, but who has a personality I established. You'll see a lot more of the game that way.
[/quote]
I don't doubt. I just... don't really want to see it. It's not how I want the universe to work out.[/quote][/quote]Fair enough, but it means there's a lot of the game you simply don't know about - perspectives you'll simply never see. And if you judge others' actions, you'll be doing so from a position of ignorance. No insult intended - it's simply a fact.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]More to the point, "pure paragon" is too "touchy-feely" for me. I
appreciated that ME3 dumped most of the trollish ME2 Renegade behavior
in favor of someone who acts more like a professional.[/quote]
I've never found Paragon to be unprofessional.[/quote]Just watched the footage of Dr. Eva venting the cafeteria. Cerberus is on the move. Shepard doesn't really have time to stand around and salve Liara's wounded pride. The renegade response isn't demeaning, it's professional.

"You did what you had to do. We need to keep moving."

Just my take on it. You can't feel bad about everything and continue to function. Paragon Shepard is far too emotional for me.

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough, but it means there's a lot of the game you simply don't know about - perspectives you'll simply never see. And if you judge others' actions, you'll be doing so from a position of ignorance. No insult intended - it's simply a fact.

I've found that people are quite eager to speak of their own actions where our paths diverge, so I don't believe I'm missing out on much.

Just watched the footage of Dr. Eva venting the cafeteria. Cerberus is on the move. Shepard doesn't really have time to stand around and salve Liara's wounded pride. The renegade response isn't demeaning, it's professional.

"You did what you had to do. We need to keep moving."

Just my take on it. You can't feel bad about everything and continue to function. Paragon Shepard is far too emotional for me.

If it doesn't take appreciably longer, I see no harm in doing so. And as a rule, Paragon Shepard's emotions never hinder her.

[DeinonSlayer]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

iakus wrote...

I've tried doing renegade runs, and I simply can't.  Sure some dialogues and interrupts work for me, or the occasional side mission.  But in the end I want to play a hero.  Not some bloodthirsty antihero.  I can't execute Shiala.  I can't hand Veetor over to Cerberus.  And I'm certainly not going to gun down the VS. 

My Renegade Shepards don't do those things you mentioned either. Nobody's forcing you to go full Renegade.

I've never done a full Renegade playthrough either, and I don't suspect I ever will. I'm not sure why so many people seem convinced you have to do one or the other - ESPECIALLY with ME3's Reputation system. My canon Shepard came out 55/45 Paragon, and never did anything I'd consider overtly evil. Seems ME2 Renegade and Neutral got rolled together at the bottom of the wheel.

Then again, encouraging Zaeed to beat up Din Korlack when the little s**t holds a Turian colony hostage gets as many renegade points as shooting Mordin...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough, but it means there's a lot of the game you simply don't know about - perspectives you'll simply never see. And if you judge others' actions, you'll be doing so from a position of ignorance. No insult intended - it's simply a fact.

I've found that people are quite eager to speak of their own actions where our paths diverge, so I don't believe I'm missing out on much.

Just watched the footage of Dr. Eva venting the cafeteria. Cerberus is on the move. Shepard doesn't really have time to stand around and salve Liara's wounded pride. The renegade response isn't demeaning, it's professional.

"You did what you had to do. We need to keep moving."

Just my take on it. You can't feel bad about everything and continue to function. Paragon Shepard is far too emotional for me.

If it doesn't take appreciably longer, I see no harm in doing so. And as a rule, Paragon Shepard's emotions never hinder her.

As a rule, EVERYTHING works for Paragons, to the point that people expect to be rewarded for being one consistently. People learned quickly that they never have to worry about blind trust and idealism coming back to bite them in the ass. This is a fault in Bioware's writing, as far as I'm concerned, and they were certainly biased that way.

In the Rachni mission, they went so far as to switch the final dialogue options depending on whether the real Queen is there or not, to ensure that Paragon players won't screw up and send back the fake who kills half of the Alliance Engineering Corps.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 01:46 .