482 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

As a rule, EVERYTHING works for Paragons, to the point that people expect to be rewarded for being one consistently. People learned quickly that they never have to worry about blind trust and idealism coming back to bite them in the ass. This is a fault in Bioware's writing, as far as I'm concerned.

That's because the trust and idealism is pretty much never blind in the first place. The real issue is that a lot of Renegade partisans can't see that Paragon decisions are generally just as smart.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ashep123 wrote...

Why can't Shepard's face in the breath scene?

It's a rendered video, not in the game engine.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

As a rule, EVERYTHING works for Paragons, to the point that people expect to be rewarded for being one consistently. People learned quickly that they never have to worry about blind trust and idealism coming back to bite them in the ass. This is a fault in Bioware's writing, as far as I'm concerned.

That's because the trust and idealism is pretty much never blind in the first place. The real issue is that a lot of Renegade partisans can't see that Paragon decisions are generally just as smart.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Fact is, players got conditioned to think Paragon will never steer them wrong because the writers made it pay off every time. Letting Vido go doesn't result in him coming back for you in ME3. He's conveniently killed off-screen, or simply never mentioned again. Balak doesn't asteroid-bomb another colony during Shepard's two-year absence if permitted to escape. Helena Blake's organization isn't taken over by someone willing to play dirty when she runs off to be a social worker. The Rachni Queen and the Geth, despite being essentially bathed in Reaper tech, never go twitchy on you.

That's not how the world works, but then, this is fiction. As I've said before, I think this is a big reason so many people are left hanging at the end. There's no clear paragon ending choice. The game isn't telling them what to think or do anymore, and they're left floundering. We've (you and I) settled on our personal preferences, but from time to time I still see hapless paragons around here asking what they're supposed to do, because they haven't thought for themselves.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[StayFrosty05]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

iakus wrote...

I've tried doing renegade runs, and I simply can't.  Sure some dialogues and interrupts work for me, or the occasional side mission.  But in the end I want to play a hero.  Not some bloodthirsty antihero.  I can't execute Shiala.  I can't hand Veetor over to Cerberus.  And I'm certainly not going to gun down the VS. 

My Renegade Shepards don't do those things you mentioned either. Nobody's forcing you to go full Renegade.

I've never done a full Renegade playthrough either, and I don't suspect I ever will. I'm not sure why so many people seem convinced you have to do one or the other - ESPECIALLY with ME3's Reputation system. My canon Shepard came out 55/45 Paragon, and never did anything I'd consider overtly evil. Seems ME2 Renegade and Neutral got rolled together at the bottom of the wheel.

Then again, encouraging Zaeed to beat up Din Korlack when the little s**t holds a Turian colony hostage gets as many renegade points as shooting Mordin...

I started off the ME franchise with pure Paragon plays always....eventually began experimenting with a Paragade, then a Renegon and eventually a Renegade....I couldn't stomach the Renegade on a second ME2 run though...once was enough for me with him.....My Renegon and Paragon both made it all the way through to one ME3 run each....but my all time favorite is Paragade...the one I am running at the moment is coming up about 60% Paragon/ 40% Renegade and he is proving a real joy to play, my best and favorite yet....am looking forward to taking him into ME3....his on his final ME2 run right now.....

It is very worth the effort to really explore the dialog wheels in all three games....there are gems hidden all over the place...this Shep is a real smart *ss sh*t stirrer and sometimes believe it or not the Paragon dialog offers some of the best gems....it really is worth exploring all of the dialogs.

The decisions that make the most sense to me are a real mixed bag....some are very harsh, such as shooting Shiala....but a very mixed bag it is....Same goes for the 'interrupts'....hitting the Reporter is just senseless brutality, whereas shooting the pipes is a sensible pre-emptive strike.....All the 'interrrupts' are worth exploring just to see whether they fit your Shep or not...The Decisions are somewhat easier to guess as they are a lot clearer as to where their heading.

[crimzontearz]

Ashep123 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ashep123 wrote...

Why can't Shepard's face in the breath scene?

It's a rendered video, not in the game engine.

But still why go all through that trouble to hide his face if you know he she survived.

because they DO NOT want you to know he did or else even less people would pick their pet endings

[DeinonSlayer]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

iakus wrote...

I've tried doing renegade runs, and I simply can't.  Sure some dialogues and interrupts work for me, or the occasional side mission.  But in the end I want to play a hero.  Not some bloodthirsty antihero.  I can't execute Shiala.  I can't hand Veetor over to Cerberus.  And I'm certainly not going to gun down the VS. 

My Renegade Shepards don't do those things you mentioned either. Nobody's forcing you to go full Renegade.

I've never done a full Renegade playthrough either, and I don't suspect I ever will. I'm not sure why so many people seem convinced you have to do one or the other - ESPECIALLY with ME3's Reputation system. My canon Shepard came out 55/45 Paragon, and never did anything I'd consider overtly evil. Seems ME2 Renegade and Neutral got rolled together at the bottom of the wheel.

Then again, encouraging Zaeed to beat up Din Korlack when the little s**t holds a Turian colony hostage gets as many renegade points as shooting Mordin...

I started off the ME franchise with pure Paragon plays always....eventually began experimenting with a Paragade, then a Renegon and eventually a Renegade....I couldn't stomach the Renegade on a second ME2 run though...once was enough for me with him.....My Renegon and Paragon both made it all the way through to one ME3 run each....but my all time favorite is Paragade...the one I am running at the moment is coming up about 60% Paragon/ 40% Renegade and he is proving a real joy to play, my best and favorite yet....am looking forward to taking him into ME3....his on his final ME2 run right now.....

It is very worth the effort to really explore the dialog wheels in all three games....there are gems hidden all over the place...this Shep is a real smart *ss sh*t stirrer and sometimes believe it or not the Paragon dialog offers some of the best gems....it really is worth exploring all of the dialogs.

The decisions that make the most sense to me are a real mixed bag....some are very harsh, such as shooting Shiala....but a very mixed bag it is....Same goes for the 'interrupts'....hitting the Reporter is just senseless brutality, whereas shooting the pipes is a sensible pre-emptive strike.....All the 'interrrupts' are worth exploring just to see whether they fit your Shep or not...The Decisions are somewhat easier to guess as they are a lot clearer as to where their heading.

I'm working on a fourth trilogy playthrough now, and it looks like at the end I'll have done two Paragades and two Renegons. Each got their points differently. Each expresses different beliefs. There's a lot of variety out there.

*fetches can of worms to open*

Now if only I could chew out Tevos after Thessia...

[StayFrosty05]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
*fetches can of worms to open*

Oh so very, very tempting....

[Xilizhra]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Fact is, players got conditioned to think Paragon will never steer them wrong because the writers made it pay off every time. Letting Vido go doesn't result in him coming back for you in ME3. He's conveniently killed off-screen, or simply never mentioned again. Balak doesn't asteroid-bomb another colony during Shepard's two-year absence if permitted to escape. Helena Blake's organization isn't taken over by someone willing to play dirty when she runs off to be a social worker. The Rachni Queen and the Geth, despite being essentially bathed in Reaper tech, never go twitchy on you.

Vido's no threat to Shepard, Balak went on the run, Helena Blake actually shut down her organization, the geth are immune to indoctrination and the Reaper code isn't the same thing (not, at least, when not directed by a Reaper), and the rachni queen needed to continue to live for potentially centuries if the Reapers wanted to keep pumping Ravagers out; indoctrination always causes neural decay at some rate, and indoctrinating the queen would eventually kill off the Reaper supply of Ravagers. Maybe rachni physiology is even more vulnerable. The point is that it all makes sense.

Now if only I could chew out Tevos after Thessia...

I'm never sorry about Shepard not having opportunities to be an ass.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 décembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[Seboist]

Trying to make sense out of something in a series where in the previous game they had humans turned into liquid goo to create the robot boss from Contra 3 because of "genetic diversity" ?

Modifié par Seboist, 27 décembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Fact is, players got conditioned to think Paragon will never steer them wrong because the writers made it pay off every time. Letting Vido go doesn't result in him coming back for you in ME3. He's conveniently killed off-screen, or simply never mentioned again. Balak doesn't asteroid-bomb another colony during Shepard's two-year absence if permitted to escape. Helena Blake's organization isn't taken over by someone willing to play dirty when she runs off to be a social worker. The Rachni Queen and the Geth, despite being essentially bathed in Reaper tech, never go twitchy on you.

Vido's no threat to Shepard, Balak went on the run, Helena Blake actually shut down her organization, the geth are immune to indoctrination and the Reaper code isn't the same thing (not, at least, when not directed by a Reaper), and the rachni queen needed to continue to live for potentially centuries if the Reapers wanted to keep pumping Ravagers out; indoctrination always causes neural decay at some rate, and indoctrinating the queen would eventually kill off the Reaper supply of Ravagers. Maybe rachni physiology is even more vulnerable. The point is that it all makes sense.

Excuses, excuses.

Shepard tried to kill Vido, guess he's big on forgiveness.
For two years?
All those mercs out of work, leaderless... whatever would they go on to do?
The Heretics weren't, after they volunteered.
Doesn't stop them from making an indoctrinated queen clone - and as I mentioned before, Bioware flips the dialogue choices in that case to keep paragon players (in most cases, non-imports) from screwing up.

Funny how it always, always works out in favor of paragons.

Xilizhra wrote...

Now if only I could chew out Tevos after Thessia...

I'm never sorry about Shepard not having opportunities to be an ass.

A pure Paragon would say that - it's actually a pretty narrow perspective. Shepard can chew out Victus after his own kid dies. You can chew out the Turians, Krogan, Salarians, Quarians, Geth, Rachi Queen - why do the Asari get a pass, especially in light of what they hid? The issue here is roleplaying freedom, not whether you, personally, would choose to do it.

Look at it this way: the final battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the matriarchs hadn't sat on that beacon for so long. Hell yes I want to question it, just like I wanted to question the Reaper code after Legion gave that whole song and dance about self-determination and rejecting Reaper tech.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 02:37 .

[StayFrosty05]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Fact is, players got conditioned to think Paragon will never steer them wrong because the writers made it pay off every time. Letting Vido go doesn't result in him coming back for you in ME3. He's conveniently killed off-screen, or simply never mentioned again. Balak doesn't asteroid-bomb another colony during Shepard's two-year absence if permitted to escape. Helena Blake's organization isn't taken over by someone willing to play dirty when she runs off to be a social worker. The Rachni Queen and the Geth, despite being essentially bathed in Reaper tech, never go twitchy on you.

Vido's no threat to Shepard, Balak went on the run, Helena Blake actually shut down her organization, the geth are immune to indoctrination and the Reaper code isn't the same thing (not, at least, when not directed by a Reaper), and the rachni queen needed to continue to live for potentially centuries if the Reapers wanted to keep pumping Ravagers out; indoctrination always causes neural decay at some rate, and indoctrinating the queen would eventually kill off the Reaper supply of Ravagers. Maybe rachni physiology is even more vulnerable. The point is that it all makes sense.

Excuses, excuses.

Shepard tried to kill Vido, guess he's big on forgiveness.
For two years?
All those mercs out of work, leaderless... whatever would they go on to do?
The Heretics weren't, after they volunteered.
Doesn't stop them from making an indoctrinated queen clone - and as I mentioned before, Bioware flips the dialogue choices in that case to keep paragon players (in most cases, non-imports) from screwing up.

Vido: Shep was dragged into that mission under false pretenses....he was going there to release the Refinery Workers, that's the information Zaeed gave him....Yup, my Shep tells Zaeed to go to hell, he isn't going to help murder a bunch of innocents for the Ego Battle between two Mercs....Vido is just another Blue Suns Merc....he is no big threat.

Balak: Though my Shep let him go....gonna shoot that b*stard in the face in ME3 though....Shep is P*SSED! with Balak....I can definitely see why people would sacrifce the hostages to stop Balak though....I just didn't have the heart to do it....

Helena Blake: She's dead...she tried to dictate terms to a Spectre....he told her "No, that's not going to happen" and she called an attack on him and his squad....Shep and squad defended themselves from a rogue criminal firing directly on them.

Rachnii: My Shep doesn't dig genocide...he would rather take the chance over completely wiping out a whole Species.

Geth: Destroyed the Heretics....they were a direct threat and Brainwashing is beyond him also, he would rather be dead...Never forgave Miranda over the Control Chip.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 27 décembre 2012 - 03:19 .

[draken-heart]

How Shepard survived the Destroy ending with high EMS? Simple: High EMS=Crucible is researched enough to the point where it only affect technology. So Shepard may lose a few limbs from the explosions, but unless his heart was technology, then he/she survived.

[In Exile]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
That's not how the world works, but then, this is fiction.

Yes, it absolutely is. The world is random. There's no secret moral cause out there to validate a pre-existing world view. Other than what some players absolutely want.

As I've said before, I think this is a big reason so many people are left hanging at the end. There's no clear paragon ending choice. The game isn't telling them what to think or do anymore, and they're left floundering. We've (you and I) settled on our personal preferences, but from time to time I still see hapless paragons around here asking what they're supposed to do, because they haven't thought for themselves.

Or, to move away from how desparately you've fetishized yourself as some kind of ubermench who can make the "hard choice", players who've always been given a third option for 100 hours get really peeved when the game decides third options are impossible, because the theme of hope, cooperation and 2nd chances gets squashed.

The Witcher and the Witcher 2 are gritty games. Mass Effect isn't.

[Xilizhra]

Shepard tried to kill Vido, guess he's big on forgiveness.
For two years?
All those mercs out of work, leaderless... whatever would they go on to do?
The Heretics weren't, after they volunteered.
Doesn't stop them from making an indoctrinated queen clone - and as I mentioned before, Bioware flips the dialogue choices in that case to keep paragon players (in most cases, non-imports) from screwing up.

Vido would never have the resources to attack Earth, yes, it's unsaid so I assume you want me to kill them all for being there, the heretics were voluntary and not indoctrinated, and the Breeder is a suboptimal temporary solution because the original queen is no longer around; keeping the original queen around for longer would be ultimately a better choice in the long term for the Reapers, at least if Shepard hadn't discovered that.

A pure Paragon would say that - it's actually a pretty narrow perspective. Shepard can chew out Victus after his own kid dies. You can chew out the Turians, Krogan, Salarians, Quarians, Geth, Rachi Queen - why do the Asari get a pass, especially in light of what they hid? The issue here is roleplaying freedom, not whether you, personally, would choose to do it.

And I'm not overfond of those either.

Look at it this way: the final battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the matriarchs hadn't sat on that beacon for so long. Hell yes I want to question it, just like I wanted to question the Reaper code after Legion gave that whole song and dance about self-determination and rejecting Reaper tech.

Tevos doesn't seem to have even known about it until right before she told you. And it's too much of a coincidence that Cerberus was there on Thessia at the same time that Shepard was; I wouldn't be at all surprised that they went to Thessia based on Shepard going there, and it wouldn't have mattered when the matriarchs said so, Cerberus would have been there.

[DeinonSlayer]

In Exile wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
That's not how the world works, but then, this is fiction.

Yes, it absolutely is. The world is random. There's no secret moral cause out there to validate a pre-existing world view. Other than what some players absolutely want.

When one side of the wheel is consistently rewarded and the other consistently punished, a single viewpoint is being pushed.

As I've said before, I think this is a big reason so many people are left hanging at the end. There's no clear paragon ending choice. The game isn't telling them what to think or do anymore, and they're left floundering. We've (you and I) settled on our personal preferences, but from time to time I still see hapless paragons around here asking what they're supposed to do, because they haven't thought for themselves.

Or, to move away from how desparately you've fetishized yourself as some kind of ubermench who can make the "hard choice", players who've always been given a third option for 100 hours get really peeved when the game decides third options are impossible, because the theme of hope, cooperation and 2nd chances gets squashed.

The Witcher and the Witcher 2 are gritty games. Mass Effect isn't.

Not as much hope, cooperation and second chances in a play through that follows a renegade path (admittedly, quite a few renegade choices are stupid, but some are pragmatic with the opposite being blind faith in unknown quantities). I've seen the three ending choices described as universally renegade. I'm not making this up out of some sense of self-aggrandizement. Not saying one path or the other is wrong, just that Paragon is rewarded throughout, then players get the rug tugged out from under them in the last ten minutes.

[Xilizhra]

Not as much hope, cooperation and second chances in a play through that follows a renegade path (admittedly, quite a few renegade choices are stupid, but some are pragmatic with the opposite being blind faith in unknown quantities). I've seen the three ending choices described as universally renegade. I'm not making this up out of some sense of self-aggrandizement. Not saying one path or the other is wrong, just that Paragon is rewarded throughout, then players get the rug tugged out from under them in the last ten minutes.

Renegade is already all about compromise and expediency, and frequently about not caring about morality. Hence, Renegades would naturally be less predisposed to have issues with the ending. But Paragon and heroism are more popular (for obvious reasons).

[Steelcan]

Cerberus Base tells you that they already knew about the beacon before Shepard.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not as much hope, cooperation and second chances in a play through that follows a renegade path (admittedly, quite a few renegade choices are stupid, but some are pragmatic with the opposite being blind faith in unknown quantities). I've seen the three ending choices described as universally renegade. I'm not making this up out of some sense of self-aggrandizement. Not saying one path or the other is wrong, just that Paragon is rewarded throughout, then players get the rug tugged out from under them in the last ten minutes.

Renegade is already all about compromise and expediency, and frequently about not caring about morality. Hence, Renegades would naturally be less predisposed to have issues with the ending. But Paragon and heroism are more popular (for obvious reasons).

And pragmatism should be rewarded, not negatively portrayed.

[Rifneno]

How did this devolve into yet another thread for renegades to ****** and moan about how the world doesn't shower them with gold for kicking puppies?

[Xilizhra]

And pragmatism should be rewarded, not negatively portrayed.

Renegade gets what it aims for almost every time: nothing but the mission done. "Pragmatism" works out exactly as you would expect.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 décembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Steelcan]

Rifneno wrote...

How did this devolve into yet another thread for renegades to ****** and moan about how the world doesn't shower them with gold for kicking puppies?

Because the word must be spread:devil:

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

And pragmatism should be rewarded, not negatively portrayed.

Renegade gets what it aims for almost every time: nothing but the mission done. Pragmatism works out exactly as you would expect.

I meant in the broader context.  Killing Balak should work out for the better, letting him run off on his own should be a good thing.