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Making sense of the breath scene (or not) !?


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#176
DeinonSlayer

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Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard tried to kill Vido, guess he's big on forgiveness.
For two years?
All those mercs out of work, leaderless... whatever would they go on to do?
The Heretics weren't, after they volunteered.
Doesn't stop them from making an indoctrinated queen clone - and as I mentioned before, Bioware flips the dialogue choices in that case to keep paragon players (in most cases, non-imports) from screwing up.

Vido would never have the resources to attack Earth (Never said anything about Earth - he could try to assassinate Shepard on the Citadel or something; he has means and motive, just needs opportunity), yes (I find it unrealistic), it's unsaid so I assume you want me to kill them all for being there (no - just noting that it wouldn't be as simple as "they broke up"), the heretics were voluntary and not indoctrinated (Legion made it sound like they were "shackled" after signing up, with a base process changed to alter their logic - unless he was just talking about what the heretic virus would do to the true geth; can't remember), and the Breeder is a suboptimal temporary solution because the original queen is no longer around; keeping the original queen around for longer would be ultimately a better choice in the long term for the Reapers, at least if Shepard hadn't discovered that (not sure where you're getting this from, but OK).

A pure Paragon would say that - it's actually a pretty narrow perspective. Shepard can chew out Victus after his own kid dies. You can chew out the Turians, Krogan, Salarians, Quarians, Geth, Rachi Queen - why do the Asari get a pass, especially in light of what they hid? The issue here is roleplaying freedom, not whether you, personally, would choose to do it.

And I'm not overfond of those either.

Point is, they're there. I'm a pretty consistent Quarian defender on these boards, but even though I disagree with some of it, the in-game dialogue calling them out for some of the crap they pull in ME3 very much needed to be there. All I'm saying is, the opportunity to criticize should have been across the board. As-is, the Asari get a free pass.

Look at it this way: the final battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the matriarchs hadn't sat on that beacon for so long. Hell yes I want to question it, just like I wanted to question the Reaper code after Legion gave that whole song and dance about self-determination and rejecting Reaper tech.

Tevos doesn't seem to have even known about it until right before she told you. And it's too much of a coincidence that Cerberus was there on Thessia at the same time that Shepard was; I wouldn't be at all surprised that they went to Thessia based on Shepard going there, and it wouldn't have mattered when the matriarchs said so, Cerberus would have been there.

Cerberus or no, they'd have had better luck if they hadn't waited until they were under seige from the Reapers to hand it over.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 06:03 .


#177
Xilizhra

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Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And pragmatism should be rewarded, not negatively portrayed.

Renegade gets what it aims for almost every time: nothing but the mission done. Pragmatism works out exactly as you would expect.


I meant in the broader context.  Killing Balak should work out for the better, letting him run off on his own should be a good thing.

Killing Balak accomplishes just what you wanted to. Why worry about the outcome of a choice you don't take?

#178
Xilizhra

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(Never said anything about Earth - he could try to assassinate Shepard on the Citadel or something; he has means and motive, just needs opportunity)

Vido was ganked very early in the war.

(I find it unrealistic)

Have fun.

(no - just noting that it wouldn't be as simple as "they broke up")

It might not be, but we have no idea what happens thereafter.

(Legion made it sound like they were "shackled" after signing up, with a base process changed to alter their logic)

Which I changed back.

Cerberus or no, they'd have had better luck if they hadn't waited until they were under seige from the Reapers to hand it over.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, everyone who made the decision is dead.

#179
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra said...
And I'm not overfond of those either.

Point is, they're there. I'm a pretty consistent Quarian defender on these boards, but the in-game dialogue calling them out for some of the crap they pull in ME3 very much needed to be there.

What annoyed me was that the only quarian I really dislike was the one I couldn't yell at (Admiral Raan).

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 27 décembre 2012 - 06:04 .


#180
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And pragmatism should be rewarded, not negatively portrayed.

Renegade gets what it aims for almost every time: nothing but the mission done. Pragmatism works out exactly as you would expect.


I meant in the broader context.  Killing Balak should work out for the better, letting him run off on his own should be a good thing.

Killing Balak accomplishes just what you wanted to. Why worry about the outcome of a choice you don't take?

But why are you rewarded for letting a terrorist run around scot free?

#181
chemiclord

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I honestly can't think of too many decisions (paragon OR renegade) that really come back to bite Shepard in the ass later, to be perfectly honest. The only one that comes to mind readily is the cloned rachni queen turning heel (off screen) if you let her go... a decision which isn't so much paragon or renegade as it is incomprehensibly stupid.

#182
Rifneno

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Steelcan wrote...

But why are you rewarded for letting a terrorist run around scot free?


Turns out, life's not fair.

#183
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus or no, they'd have had better luck if they hadn't waited until they were under seige from the Reapers to hand it over.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, everyone who made the decision is dead.


Proof?  The Asari government would be the first on board evacuation shuttles.  Most of one idiots are likely still alive, and will be facing sever penalties and possible war crimes charges.

#184
Xilizhra

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But why are you rewarded for letting a terrorist run around scot free?

Why do you care?

Proof? The Asari government would be the first on board evacuation shuttles. Most of one idiots are likely still alive, and will be facing sever penalties and possible war crimes charges.

Someone mentions it on Thessia. But even if they are alive, I'll use my... influence to ensure that the information never gets out.

#185
Steelcan

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Rifneno wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But why are you rewarded for letting a terrorist run around scot free?


Turns out, life's not fair.

Apparantly it is only fair to those who won't dare take a renegade action.

#186
Rifneno

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chemiclord wrote...

I honestly can't think of too many decisions (paragon OR renegade) that really come back to bite Shepard in the ass later, to be perfectly honest. The only one that comes to mind readily is the cloned rachni queen turning heel (off screen) if you let her go... a decision which isn't so much paragon or renegade as it is incomprehensibly stupid.


Screwing up stuff with Tali or Legion in ME2 can prevent you from being able to make peace too.  Sabotaging the genophage if Wrex is alive tend to end poorly as well.

#187
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

Proof? The Asari government would be the first on board evacuation shuttles. Most of one idiots are likely still alive, and will be facing sever penalties and possible war crimes charges.

Someone mentions it on Thessia. But even if they are alive, I'll use my... influence to ensure that the information never gets out.

No, they are not mentioned. I just played that level.

i forgot you were the lapdog of the Asari, my mistake.  God forbid their stranglehold on the galaxy be loosened and heir crimes be exposed.

#188
DeinonSlayer

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Xilizhra wrote...

(Never said anything about Earth - he could try to assassinate Shepard on the Citadel or something; he has means and motive, just needs opportunity)

Vido was ganked very early in the war.

One might say conveniently. For Shepard, at least. I believe "Exit Pursued By A Bear" is the relevant trope - the baddie gets off'ed by circumstance without the hero having to get their hands dirty.

(no - just noting that it wouldn't be as simple as "they broke up")

It might not be, but we have no idea what happens thereafter.

I left her organization intact with a warning in my canon. She adopts her partners' practices, I come back. These people tend to be better at governing themselves. Can't say I'm disappointed with the results.

(Legion made it sound like they were "shackled" after signing up, with a base process changed to alter their logic)

Which I changed back.

They chose to do it? Every last one of them? Blow 'em up. Makes peace easier, incidentally, but not required for it.

Cerberus or no, they'd have had better luck if they hadn't waited until they were under seige from the Reapers to hand it over.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, everyone who made the decision is dead.

I'm not convinced. We've discussed this before; doubt anyone will be changing their minds, I'm just saying - it should have been an option. Post-Thessia, IMO, is some of the worst dialogue and characterization in the game.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 décembre 2012 - 06:15 .


#189
Rifneno

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Steelcan wrote...

No, they are not mentioned. I just played that level.

i forgot you were the lapdog of the Asari, my mistake.  God forbid their stranglehold on the galaxy be loosened and heir crimes be exposed.


What, you think the boring space lesbians shouldn't have hid away an artifact that quite possibly could've proved the Reapers' existence way back before the invasion?  That's just foolish!  Don't you know the smurfs can do no wrong?

#190
chemiclord

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Rifneno wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I honestly can't think of too many decisions (paragon OR renegade) that really come back to bite Shepard in the ass later, to be perfectly honest. The only one that comes to mind readily is the cloned rachni queen turning heel (off screen) if you let her go... a decision which isn't so much paragon or renegade as it is incomprehensibly stupid.


Screwing up stuff with Tali or Legion in ME2 can prevent you from being able to make peace too.  Sabotaging the genophage if Wrex is alive tend to end poorly as well.


Well, Tali and Legion in ME2 both have Renegade and Paragon methods to resolve it, so if those come back to bite you in the ass, it's not a paragon/renegade issue as much as you "screwed up" somewhere.

I don't remember too well what is required to spare Wrex on Virmire, so that might be one.

#191
Iakus

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Rifneno wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I honestly can't think of too many decisions (paragon OR renegade) that really come back to bite Shepard in the ass later, to be perfectly honest. The only one that comes to mind readily is the cloned rachni queen turning heel (off screen) if you let her go... a decision which isn't so much paragon or renegade as it is incomprehensibly stupid.


Screwing up stuff with Tali or Legion in ME2 can prevent you from being able to make peace too.  Sabotaging the genophage if Wrex is alive tend to end poorly as well.


Interestingly, sabotaging the genophage if both Wrex and Eve are dead is a paragon option

#192
Xilizhra

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i forgot you were the lapdog of the Asari, my mistake. God forbid their stranglehold on the galaxy be loosened and heir crimes be exposed.

I won't let the crimes of a tiny few besmirch an entire race.

#193
Steelcan

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Rifneno wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No, they are not mentioned. I just played that level.

i forgot you were the lapdog of the Asari, my mistake.  God forbid their stranglehold on the galaxy be loosened and heir crimes be exposed.


What, you think the boring space lesbians shouldn't have hid away an artifact that quite possibly could've proved the Reapers' existence way back before the invasion?  That's just foolish!  Don't you know the smurfs can do no wrong?


I will enjoy stripping them of Council race status:devil:

#194
DeinonSlayer

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iakus wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I honestly can't think of too many decisions (paragon OR renegade) that really come back to bite Shepard in the ass later, to be perfectly honest. The only one that comes to mind readily is the cloned rachni queen turning heel (off screen) if you let her go... a decision which isn't so much paragon or renegade as it is incomprehensibly stupid.


Screwing up stuff with Tali or Legion in ME2 can prevent you from being able to make peace too.  Sabotaging the genophage if Wrex is alive tend to end poorly as well.


Interestingly, sabotaging the genophage if both Wrex and Eve are dead is a paragon option

Same as abandoning the Rachni Breeder. They don't want their loyal paragons making mistakes.

#195
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

i forgot you were the lapdog of the Asari, my mistake. God forbid their stranglehold on the galaxy be loosened and heir crimes be exposed.

I won't let the crimes of a tiny few besmirch an entire race.

So they get off scot free after conning the galaxy?  Sorry it doesn't work that way.  And it isn't a few, Asari government is Direct Democracy.  EVERYONE is a part of the government, not everyone would know if e beacon, but I don't articulately care.  

They benefited from the Asari deception of the galaxy, they will have to earn their place back.

#196
Xilizhra

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Same as abandoning the Rachni Breeder. They don't want their loyal paragons making mistakes.

Note that getting Kelly to change her identity is a bottom option. This is far from universal.

So they get off scot free after conning the galaxy? Sorry it doesn't work that way. And it isn't a few, Asari government is Direct Democracy. EVERYONE is a part of the government, not everyone would know if e beacon, but I don't articulately care.

"Known only to the top officials of our government."
If any are still alive, I'll deal with them quietly. Otherwise, no one will ever learn.

#197
Steelcan

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Xilizhra wrote...

So they get off scot free after conning the galaxy? Sorry it doesn't work that way. And it isn't a few, Asari government is Direct Democracy. EVERYONE is a part of the government, not everyone would know if e beacon, but I don't articulately care.

"Known only to the top officials of our government."
If any are still alive, I'll deal with them quietly. Otherwise, no one will ever learn.


The galaxy will know.  You can't conceal the truth forever. There is just too many people who would know.  Shepard obviously, Liara, the other squadmate, EDI, any Cerberus officer with sufficient clearance, anyone who looks at the Mars research later....

#198
Xilizhra

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Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So they get off scot free after conning the galaxy? Sorry it doesn't work that way. And it isn't a few, Asari government is Direct Democracy. EVERYONE is a part of the government, not everyone would know if e beacon, but I don't articulately care.

"Known only to the top officials of our government."
If any are still alive, I'll deal with them quietly. Otherwise, no one will ever learn.


The galaxy will know.  You can't conceal the truth forever. There is just too many people who would know.  Shepard obviously, Liara, the other squadmate, EDI, any Cerberus officer with sufficient clearance, anyone who looks at the Mars research later....

My squad is trustworthy, I believe. Cerberus is extinct, and I don't believe the Mars research will be that much of a threat.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 décembre 2012 - 06:30 .


#199
DeinonSlayer

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Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So they get off scot free after conning the galaxy? Sorry it doesn't work that way. And it isn't a few, Asari government is Direct Democracy. EVERYONE is a part of the government, not everyone would know if e beacon, but I don't articulately care.

"Known only to the top officials of our government."
If any are still alive, I'll deal with them quietly. Otherwise, no one will ever learn.


The galaxy will know.  You can't conceal the truth forever. There is just too many people who would know.  Shepard obviously, Liara, the other squadmate, EDI, any Cerberus officer with sufficient clearance, anyone who looks at the Mars research later....

My squad is trustworthy, I believe. Cerberus is extinct, and I don't believe the Mars research will be that much of a threat.

What would you do to anyone who did try to reveal what happened?

#200
Ticonderoga117

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Xilizhra wrote...
"Known only to the top officials of our government."
If any are still alive, I'll deal with them quietly. Otherwise, no one will ever learn.


Trying to cover up the greatest crime in history? They had a working Prothean VI right under thier nose that could've nipped the Reaper threat in the bud with harly a sweat and THEY HID IT for hundreds to thousands of years. Thus leading to the death of billions!

That needs to be on every extranet site someone can manage.