211 réponses à ce sujet

[RocketManSR2]

Yate wrote...
he's alive

he's the lead character in a sci-fi series

and he's shown breathing

he's alive

Prove it.

[xsdob]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Closure? The last we see of Shepard is a quick shot of him dying in rubble followed by a fade to black. BioWare has a funny idea of closure. "Is he alive? Is he dead? Too bad you'll never find out!" *Trollface*

Only someone with no knowledge of theatrical staging, foreshadowing, or knowledge of epilouge writting, would assume shepard died than. Both your love interest not putting your name up and an inhale of breath are both commonly used tools to convey that a character survived what would be the unsurvivable. This is like looking at a cpr scene where a person takes a gasping breath after being worked on, and assuming that the person is dead. Plue there is the message that you recieve of the virmire survivor asking to visit you afterwards when you beat the game. This could easily be seen as a way to convey that shepard survived even more so, but due to the replaying mechanic of ME3, had to be shown before the cerberus base when you complete the game.

However, you are also assuming that the only ending is destroy. There are 3 other endings, all of which come with closure and a sense of earned victory, at least for me. We know what happens in control, we know what happens, at least partially, in synthesis. And we know the reapers are defeated in refuse due to our actions in this cycle, just as the protheans helped us in the last cycle.

[RocketManSR2]

xsdob wrote...

Only someone with no knowledge of theatrical staging, foreshadowing, or knowledge of epilouge writting, would assume shepard died than. Both your love interest not putting your name up and an inhale of breath are both commonly used tools to convey that a character survived what would be the unsurvivable. This is like looking at a cpr scene where a person takes a gasping breath after being worked on, and assuming that the person is dead. Plue there is the message that you recieve of the virmire survivor asking to visit you afterwards when you beat the game. This could easily be seen as a way to convey that shepard survived even more so, but due to the replaying mechanic of ME3, had to be shown before the cerberus base when you complete the game.

However, you are also assuming that the only ending is destroy. There are 3 other endings, all of which come with closure and a sense of earned victory, at least for me. We know what happens in control, we know what happens, at least partially, in synthesis. And we know the reapers are defeated in refuse due to our actions in this cycle, just as the protheans helped us in the last cycle.

1) I had no idea Liara can use the Force and sense me....... <_<
2) Apparently you got a different rubble scene than I did because I could swear there were no medical personnel anywhere near Shepard
3) What message? Some iOS bulls***? Don't make me laugh.

[Epic777]

xsdob wrote...

I do think those who have a problem with the game or endings are not necessarily wrong, but not right either due to their less than center opinions on what makes a good game IMO.

Bioware could have handled this much better, and in much better ways than a wall of silence. They are active on twitter, so I don't think they were completly shut off since questions have been answered with that medium before. The bsn I could see why they wouldn't want to use since people could easily derail the threads and lead to a never ending cycle of flaming and locking.

The original endings were rushed, the EC addresed mine and many other fans demands for clourse and emotional satisfaction, so they were good. But they could have made things much more clear to everyone that they were simply adding closure and emotional satisfaction.

I disagree. The original ending(s) failed because they were so unclear. The problem of closure was a direct symptom of the lack of clarity. However I agree that the EC fixed any lack of clarity.  On a seperate note, I wish directors and producers of various media would understand about speculation. Speculation works when the audience has some answers but not all the answers. 

Example: A fictional romantic sees our loser protagonist not sure which girl he wants to date at the end of the movie. Is it the plain, steady girl? Is it the fun-loving, unpredictable girl? The audience is never shown. Later after the credits we see a young girl bemoaning her father, who is obvious the protagonist. The young lady has features of both women and is the progeny of one of them. Who is mother? The audience is left to speculate. Thats doing it right

[KevShep]

Olympiclash wrote...

I actually wrote this for another thread where, upon pressing submit, found the thread locked. I almost cried. lol

I enjoy the endings and I believe it would be pretty much impossible for Bioware to please even most people, let alone everyone. They dedicated a lot of time, money and hard work from their lives on those endings and when a very vocal portion of their audience DEMANDED "BETTER"...(let that sink in a bit)...they went back in and gave players more and didn't ask them to pay for it.

Bioware has reacted to this whole controversy with nothing but class IMO. If I were in their shoes and people started calling for my job and, in some extreme cases, my LIFE, my reaction wouldn't be as polite. Believe it or not, they actually DO care about their audience. That does not mean they have to cave in to every demand. Does a parent not love their child just because they don't buy the kid a toy even though the kid throws a temper-tantrum?

Personally, I just find it quite sad that a property I love so much, and clearly others do as well, is being looked at in such a negative light now because of ten minutes of gameplay. Ten minutes out of HUNDREDS of hours of gameplay is apparently "so bad" that they are willing to let it ruin the entire franchise for them. Is it really that bad? I don't believe it is. Is the ending exactly like I had envisioned it would be? Thankfully it is not, as in retrospect that ending would look like something out of a Michael Bay film - lots of explosions and epic action scenes...yet quite shallow. The endings make me think and allow for what is ultimately a philosophical debate among players.

I actually think that's pretty cool. Just my opinion though.

Have you even stopped to realize that the ending of ME3...WAS...possible to please most (if not all) the people?

Have you stopped to realize that the ending to ME3 was...the...SAME...EXACT...ENDING...as Deus Ex with four choices (destroy/merge(synthesis)/control and refuse)?

The ending was done in the most lazy way they could have done it! It was a copy and paste ending of another game!

Modifié par KevShep, 28 décembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[Dylionez]

Honestly after so much time has passed I'm not bothered (Doesn't mean I don't shiver with anger) with the endings anymore. I'm upset about the game as a whole. I wish I had the experience many of you had, but that introduction... It literally broke me and my immersion.

-Sincerely a 17 year old who's played Mass Effect since he was 12.

[FreshRevenge]

I enjoy the game immensely, I am doing a trilogy run since I was able to download  ME1 on the PS3. I so far replayed Mass Effect 1 about three times. I am doing my Shepard/Garrus LI runthrough.

It isn't the choices that bother me so much but it is the lack of choice to destroy the Reapers without destroying the Geth or Edi. I feel betrayed because after I spent most of my time uniting the Krogan and Turians and then the Geth and Quarains. I get this snot nose starbrat telling me that there are these choices

Now my problem with synthesis is one I don't feel I should alter organics. Also turning everyone into half organic and half synthetics doesn't solve anything people can still kill one another. Humans kill Humans. Krogans kill Krogans. Turians kill turians. An hybrid can easily kill each other. Also an hybrid can create another form of synthetics which will turn on their creators which are now hybrids. So this logic is futile.

My thoughts on control is sure Shepard can control the Reapers but for how long? How long can Shepards mind without a body survive? Sure space magic is introduce here, which is puzzling when most of the series seem somewhat scientific in its reasoning so why is beyond me.

Now destroy for me is the most viable solution. I just don't like that I am not given the option to destroy the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth and Edi. If BioWare had just given us this option than I think a lot of fans would be happy with the other choices because each offers something different. I would of just loved to end the series how I wanted it to end. I think a lot of people wanted it too. That is why so many threads and topics keep popping up even after the fact that it has been several months since release.

I remember the first time when I reached the end, I was like WTF??? After what I just spent my whole game trying to do and it comes to this. I felt I had no just choice.

That is where the resentment from fans and critics come from. It is the lack of choice to do what we wanted to do from the start. Kill the Reapers and save everyone else!

Modifié par FreshRevenge, 28 décembre 2012 - 08:15 .

[CDRSkyShepard]

There's a lot about ME3 that is bad in my opinion. There are many dropped plot threads and the endings are only the cherry on top as far as that is concerned. However, I could have forgiven almost all of the many shortcomings this game has if I was offered the opportunity to come out on top, victorious and triumphant. If I had been able to jump out of my chair and do a mighty "WHOOP WHOOP" like I did after BOTH ME1 and ME2, I could've lived with the plethora of plot inconsistencies. (Admittedly, though, the game would still be the weakest, in my humble opinion.)

But it did none of that. It made people talk alright...but not about the philosophy behind it all; it made people talk about whether or not the philosophy was complete and utter crap. Generally, as an artist, you don't want people talking about your art by debating whether or not it was crap. That's NOT the debate you want to have. If you have even half the loyal fandom questioning the merit of the whole thing, you did something wrong. BioWare can talk all they want about "we wanted people to talk about it, and they are, so we did it!" but they seem to fail to realize the conversation that is happening here is NOT one you want fans to be having. Questioning the quality and validity of something is not a good debate to foster.

As someone who is a bit of a writer herself, I know that you don't want the debate surrounding your work to be whether or not it sucked. I also want to give BioWare some benefit of the doubt, because you certainly don't want to illicit this kind of a reaction. But I have to wonder who in Hades - upon seeing the original endings side-by-side - thought this was a good idea.

[CDRSkyShepard]

xsdob wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Closure? The last we see of Shepard is a quick shot of him dying in rubble followed by a fade to black. BioWare has a funny idea of closure. "Is he alive? Is he dead? Too bad you'll never find out!" *Trollface*

However, you are also assuming that the only ending is destroy. There are 3 other endings, all of which come with closure and a sense of earned victory, at least for me. We know what happens in control, we know what happens, at least partially, in synthesis. And we know the reapers are defeated in refuse due to our actions in this cycle, just as the protheans helped us in the last cycle.

If you didn't want to martyr your Shepard, that IS the only option.

Personally, I hate the martyr complex with a fiery passion, so I had no plans for my Shepard to pitch herself off a platform into a magical beam of light. Or become SkyNet.

[Outsider edge]

I'm not going too dive (once again) in the contents of the endings. Yes i'm very aware some people liked the original endings just as some people like fancy arthouse movies. However just like those arthouse movies it will never have general appeal. Considering that Mass Effect is (or was...) a sci-fi franchise in the same mold as a star trek or a star wars the original endings simply didn't fit with what they were trying too accomplish. They wanted too sell millions of copies and they ended the trilogy like somekind of overblown indiegame.

Secondly the extended cut wasn't released out of sheer class of Bioware too give a free gift too their fanbase it was released too salvage an intellectual property from oblivion. Their PR simply couldn't spin the ending controversy anymore and the name Mass Effect got synonymous with bad writing in both the gaming community but even worse outside of said community thanks too the vocal uprising. If they hadn't released the extended cut their DLC sales would have bombed and a Mass Effect 4 would have been dead in the water before it even came out.

And even with the extended cut (and the Leviathan DLC imo) a large group of potential buyers still hate the endings with a passion. Whatever it is despite all their actions the Mass Effect franchise has been tainted by this whole experience.

[katamuro]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

xsdob wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Closure? The last we see of Shepard is a quick shot of him dying in rubble followed by a fade to black. BioWare has a funny idea of closure. "Is he alive? Is he dead? Too bad you'll never find out!" *Trollface*

However, you are also assuming that the only ending is destroy. There are 3 other endings, all of which come with closure and a sense of earned victory, at least for me. We know what happens in control, we know what happens, at least partially, in synthesis. And we know the reapers are defeated in refuse due to our actions in this cycle, just as the protheans helped us in the last cycle.

If you didn't want to martyr your Shepard, that IS the only option.

Personally, I hate the martyr complex with a fiery passion, so I had no plans for my Shepard to pitch herself off a platform into a magical beam of light. Or become SkyNet.

Yeah. My problem with the endings was not just the catalyst thing but the lack of explanation. they basically blindsided us with that starchild and its logic.

[Reth Shepherd]

Olympiclash wrote...

Jagri wrote...

No one seems able to counter the Deus Ex angle... In fact whenever mentioned it is flat out ignored. The sad thing about it is in 2000 I picked the "destroy" ending. In 2012 I picked the "destroy" ending once again. Same color... Same choice... Same results just on a smaller scale.

I didn't mention it because I didn't know what the endings to Deus Ex were. I could only assume that they were conceptually the same. In which case I'm fine with that. I've never played Deus Ex and concepts are ripped off all the time in film and games and...well, everything. 

Upon a quick Google of Deus Ex's endings I can't deny there are striking similarities. To say that it is a straight "cut and paste" job though is hyperbole. Shepard does not become a dictator in the synthesis ending. He's completely removed from the picture actually. In DE's "control" ending the main character also seems to rule the world with the technology given. This is open to interpretation but, at least with the Paragon Control speech, Shepard does not appear to rule the galaxy. And in DE's "destroy" ending, the intentions seem to be to send the world into a second dark age in order to protect the world. And while I MIGHT agree that that is the implications in ME3 pre-EC, post-EC, I believe, differentiates itself just enough from Deus Ex to be it's own. There is no "dark age" in destroy. the relays are damaged but fixable. The trade-off is in wiping out ALL synthetics if you want to destroy the Reapers.

Actually, the endings are so similar that someone was able to take dialogue from one game's ending, insert it into the other, and have the ensuing conversation still make sense 90% of the time.

Olympiclash wrote...

StElmo wrote...

thats fine OP, but I think your ignoring what the marketing was saying about the game prior.

Their promises?
Meh.
Things change. I can't and won't judge something based on what might have been. Only on what it is.

Minor problem. Some of the most blatant broken promises were made AFTER the game was completed and being transcribed to disk.

Modifié par Reth Shepherd, 28 décembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[dorktainian]

the whole 'take back earth' promise just makes me feel sick. where? to the stone age? we lost. we really lost.

[xsdob]

Not in my game I didn't. Sorry your interpretation is that you lost.

[Carlos3lance]

   Well, I just finished ME3 last night - all Paragon. And since I bought the game later than most, I really only played it with the extended dlc so I can't comment on it's state before that.

   All in all, I personally have no problem with the endings as they were presented, aside from the overwhelming loss and regret you get looking back - the game is so damn realistic, free of the fairy tale syndrome that the war actually felt brutal and costly, to the extent that I found myself moping, with a blank stare on my face, depressend and wrecked as if in mourning. 

   
   Anyway, back on topic. I'd wished there was a way to clear things up without Shepard having to die, part with the rest of the characters in such a tear jerking fashion - heck, I thought hard and struggles to avoid just that, like everyone else who played and loved the games. But that's not to say I'd protest and demand a different ending - artistically it's good, just hella brutal and eye opening...

   
   Personally I chose the synthesys ending for a variety of reasons that made sense to me.



   First off, I avoided destroying all synthetics, including:

                                       

                                   1) EDi(and thus not wrecking Joker's happiness and well being).
                                   2) The geth(and thus not denying much needed geth assistance to the quarians in both rebuilding their infrastructure on Rannoch, as well as jumpstarting their immune systems in less than a decade)



   Second, synthesis makes reapers and their cyclical function null and void. Having chosen control, one could argue that it's a brute force approach to a recurring problem. After building the crucible, going through hell and seeing Cerberus shadow every initiative with their scary ambitions, there's no guarantee that control would stay with Shepard or that future wars would be less brutal.

   
   And 3rd, it's mentioned by Edi's narrative, that, aside from eradicating any remote possibility of future conflicts with synthetics, assuring total peace and empathy among races, synthesis also conquers mortality of organics.



   Hell, I wanted Shepard to live and fly off with the crew as badly as anyone. To just bypass that goodbye when the Normandy flash evaqued Tali and Garrus during the rush for the beam on Earth - but it is what it is, consistent with all the paragon decisions made in the trilogy, doing what's best for others.

There's grief, there's desperate charges and firefights, there's personal relationships, and ultimately a bleak reality that's far from fairy tale bindings, that demands one more sacrifice. Brutal, but well written.

*goes off now to have a drink and recover...

Modifié par Carlos3lance, 28 décembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Jagri]

Reth Shepherd wrote...
Actually, the endings are so similar that someone was able to take dialogue from one game's ending, insert it into the other, and have the ensuing conversation still make sense 90% of the time.

That Deus Effect was epic... This topic was so worth it just for that link alone! I can almost forgive the endings now...

Modifié par Jagri, 28 décembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[Dr_Extrem]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

xsdob wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Closure? The last we see of Shepard is a quick shot of him dying in rubble followed by a fade to black. BioWare has a funny idea of closure. "Is he alive? Is he dead? Too bad you'll never find out!" *Trollface*

However, you are also assuming that the only ending is destroy. There are 3 other endings, all of which come with closure and a sense of earned victory, at least for me. We know what happens in control, we know what happens, at least partially, in synthesis. And we know the reapers are defeated in refuse due to our actions in this cycle, just as the protheans helped us in the last cycle.

If you didn't want to martyr your Shepard, that IS the only option.

Personally, I hate the martyr complex with a fiery passion, so I had no plans for my Shepard to pitch herself off a platform into a magical beam of light. Or become SkyNet.

even in destroy you are menat to die. the fact that shep can survive, is not known to the catalyst or shepard - only to a metagaming player.

the memorial scene only makes real sense, if the li is liara. if liara and shepard are bondmates, it it clear - the joining transcends time and space, two become one .. all this stuff is explained in mass effect 1 and the codex. the other lis are guessing.

if half of my closure depends on having a certain li and an iphone app, i have the right to be slightly upset.


wasnt the app massage a bug anyway? i am not sure on that one.

[archangel1996]

[TMZuk]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

...............

If you didn't want to martyr your Shepard, that IS the only option.

Personally, I hate the martyr complex with a fiery passion, so I had no plans for my Shepard to pitch herself off a platform into a magical beam of light. Or become SkyNet.

This! Forcing me to make my character a martyr left me with so much anger, bitterness and the taste of bile in my mouth. I hate martyrdom with a vengeance!

[crimzontearz]

Yeah totally...I love being subtly told I am too dull to understand art, or that EVERYONE at Bioware played the game and NO ONE found faults with the ending, or that I would not be required to play multiplayer to get the best ending only to find out I actually do, or be told that I paid 60$ to have the pleasure to headcanon the survival of MY character in a story that was marketed to me as MY OWN, in a scene that requires me to shut my brain off and think solely about author intention which is subsequently NEVER stated and without so much generosity as any word of god aside for a lovely "well for all you know that was his last breath but it is up to you trollolololol".
And that is AFTER the EC which was supposed to add context to the ending but, as it turns out now as per Bioware's own devs, even tho that was the goal of the EC and not changing the ending themselves answering questions about the ending adds MORE context which would change the ending and that is not what Bioware wants to do. OH OH and I love being given the middle finger in the form of a refuse option that is NOT an ending as it does not trigger the achievement and then be expected to praise Bioware for being magnanimous enough to give me such option because WE requested it when in reality we asked for a refuse victory

-takes breath-

No..**** this

[Ajgrebel]

In the end the ending won't be touched again or DLC that affects the ending is because not enough of the people who bought the game actually played through to the end. I don't remember where the stat came from but didn't only like 40 something % players actually play through the entire game?

[Reth Shepherd]

Ajgrebel wrote...

In the end the ending won't be touched again or DLC that affects the ending is because not enough of the people who bought the game actually played through to the end. I don't remember where the stat came from but didn't only like 40 something % players actually play through the entire game?

That's actually fairly normal, apparently. ME2 also had a large number of people who never finished it. Halo has even worse stats, I believe; as many people purchase it for the MP and never touch the SP at all, much less complete it. Here's the link if you wanted to look at it again.

[Femlob]

I'm jealous of those who never finished it. Ignorance is bliss.

[Ajgrebel]

In the game for me the first WTF moment was Tali's face. I thought surely there would be a in-game moment reveal before the start of priority earth... then the photoshop stock photo was given as a 'gift'. I think that bummed me out more than the ending.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Don't bother, OP. You can't argue with blind hate.