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[Shaun the Crazy One]

The thing I love most about Bioware games is the writing.  What is it about the Mass Effect and Dragon age games that makes the writing so great?  To me this is what will potential make or break DA3 so I wanted to talk about plot devices that contributed to their past successes and failures.  Here's just a few that came to mind.

The Tragic Villian
The tragic villain is a victim of circumstance. An atagonist who means well, but is either not in full control of their actions or has conflicting emotions that the player can sympathize with. Charaters like Saren Artavious from ME1, Loghain from DAO, or even the collectors from ME2. Having an antagonist that you can sympathize with adds a whole new dimension to a game.  This is one area where ME3 fell a bit short.  They set up the Elusive man to be the tragic villain of the third installment, but sadly he had no decent and no redeeming qualities to make us sympathize with him.  In ME2 he was by and large on our side supporting most (if not all) of the decisions we made.  When we first encounter his and Cerberus in ME3 they've raided a human base killing everyone who worded there, which is not only unnecessarily evil but goes against what Cerberus supposedly stands.  Try to reason with the elusive man and he'll essentially tells you he was just using you he entire time, and the the tragic villain plot device is broken right there.

Some of the earlier BioWare games used this plot device to spectacular effect.  Like the way Saren tries to convince us (and himself) that he's not under Sovereign's control.  The way Loghain tries to defend his actions in the Landsmeet.  Or the final scene is ME2 when Harbinger abandons the collectors, "You have failed.  We must find another way." and the collector general, we were previously lead to believe was the main villain, looks up at the god like creature he cannot possibly understand that has abandoned him, just before an explosion fills the room.  Now that's a powerful plot device.

The Climax
Every story has a climax, the point where the conflict of the story is resolved in one way or another.  With games this is often most exciting if it ivolves an epic final boss fight.  In a way you could consider the the lands meet in DAO the climax, since it's where most of the conflict was resolved.  A heated debate followed by a one on one showdown with Loghain.  But the real resolution comes in your battle with the arch demon where all you've accomplished and the allies you've rallied are brought to bear on the Arch Demon and the final sacrifice must be made.  The whole game builds up spectacularly to that moment.  The collector base in ME2 is another great example.  All the plot elements established earlier in the game come into play in one way or another, with a spectacular boss fight to boot.  In ME3 on the other hand (and I hate to keep railing on this game but for the lack of a better example bear with me) the climax involves no boss fight.  What's more it that it only uses one plot element, the crucible, making all you did earlier in the game seem pointless.

The Deus Ex Machina
Deus Ex Machina is Latin for "god from the machine", and refers to a plot device in which an all powerful being resolves a seemingly impossible problem.  This generally a plot device best avoided.  We saw it in ME3 where "The catalyst", acts as the god figure giving 3 choices to resolve the conflict, unrelated to previous events of the series.  In the case of ME3 this may be due to the games telescopic effect where there are so many decision through out the corse of the three games, that trying to tie them all together into a single ending is next to impossible.  While the ending DLC does provide more explanation and epilog it still relies on the Deus Ex Machina mechanic to conclude the story.  It's for this reason I'm hoping DA3 will involve a fresh plot and character so as not to suffer from this telescopic effect.  I really hope we will never see a Deus Ex Machina in Bioware game again.

I'm sure there are more plot devices I haven't hit on.  If you know of any please post them.

* Edit: fixed spelling errors

Modifié par Shaun the Crazy One, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:46 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

The thing I love most about Bioware games is the writing.  What is it about the Mass Effect and Dragon age games that makes the writing so great?  To me this is what will potential make or break DA3 so I wanted to talk about plot devices that contributed to their past sussesses and failures.  Here's just a few that came to mind.

The Tragic Villian
The tragic villain is a victim of circumstance. An atagonist who means well, but is either not in full control of their actions or has conflicting emotions that the player can sympathize with. Charaters like Saren Artavious from ME1, Loghain from DAO, or even the collectors from ME2. Having an antagonist that you can sympathize with adds a whole new dimension to a game.  This is one area where ME3 fell a bit short.  They set up the Elusive man to be the tragic villain of the third installment, but sadly he had no decent and no redeeming qualities to make us sympathize with him.  In ME2 he was by and large on our side supporting most (if not all) of the decisions we made.  When we first encounter his and Cerberus in ME3 they've raided a human base killing everyone who worded there, which is not only unnecessarily evil but goes against what Cerberus supposedly stands.  Try to reason with the elusive man and he'll essentially tells you he was just using you he entire time, and the the tragic villain plot device is broken right there.

Some of the earlier BioWare games used this plot device to spectacular effect.  Like the way Saren tries to convince us (and himself) that he's not under Sovereign's control.  The way Loghain tries to defend his actions in the Landsmeet.  Or the final scene is ME2 when Harbinger abandons the collectors, "You have failed.  We must find another way." and the collector general, we were previously lead to believe was the main villain, looks up at the god like creature he cannot possibly understand that has abandoned him, just before and explosion fills the room.  Now that's a powerful plot device.

The Climax
Every story has a climax, the point where the conflict of the story is resolved in one way or another.  With games this is often most exciting if it ivolves an epic final boss fight.  I a way you could consider the the lands meet in DAO the climax, since it's where most of the conflict was resolved.  A heated debate followed by a one on one showdown with Loghain.  But the real resolution comes in your battle with the arch demon where all you've accomplished and the allies you've rallied are brought to bear on the Arch Demon and the final sacrifice must be made.  The whole game builds up spectacularly to that moment.  The collector base in ME2 is another great example.  All the plot elements established earlier in the game come into play in one way or another, with a spectacular boss fight to boot.  In ME3 on the other hand (and I hate to keep railing on this game but for the lack of a better example bear with me) the climax involves no boos fight.  What's more it that it only uses one plot element, the crucible, making all you did earlier in the ame seem pointless.

The Deus Ex Machina
Deus Ex Machina is Latin for "god from the machine", and refers to a plot device in which an all powerful being resolves a seemingly impossible problem.  This generally a plot device best avoided.  We saw it in ME3 where "The catalyst", acts as the god figure giving 3 choices to resolve the conflict, unrelated to previous events of the series.  In the case of ME3 this may be due to the games telescopic effect where there are so many decision through out the corse of the three games, that trying to tie them all together into a single ending is next to impossible.  While the ending DLC does provide more explanation and epilog it still relies on the Deus Ex Machina mechanic to conclude the story.  It's for this reason I'm hoping DA3 will involve a fresh plot and character so as not to suffer from this telescopic effect.  I really hope we will never see a Deus Ex Machina in Bioware game again.

I'm sure there are more plot devices I haven't hit on.  If you know of any please post them.

Thank you for the drama lesson, professor.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Messianic figure
Often in games and stories, the hero is a promised one, being waited for
a long time, there is a prophecy, being told in a dream, the one who
bring balance to the world, the one who have a mission to be fulfilled,
defeating the greatest evil, the one who unite the land, the hero of
everyone...

DA:O is actually a messianic type of a game/story but
the protagonist/main character never know he/she is actually a Messiah,
because there is no prophecy or something anywhere mentioned in the
game/story, but what he/she do is actually what a Messiah character
do...that is the key success of DA:O

The player feel being an
important person, feel being chosen by God, the feeling no matter what
the player belief, even for an atheist, so that motivate the player to
move character against all odd, and at the end with dramatic scene it is
rewarding

In DA:2, the base story is not messianic story,
although Hawke is considered a Hero but it is not messianic type of a
hero. Hawke is just a person who involve in problems and solve it. Hawke
have no mission to be fulfilled, have no motivation to move on,
everything that Hawke do is just handling a problem even it is not
his/her problem at all. So the player don't have such feeling of being
important...

To be honest I've never actualy played DA2 (Awakening was too much of a letdown).  The Messianic figure is a great example though.  It's interesting because in DAO your character starts as a fairly normal person caught in an unfortunate situation and forced to join an organization responsible for stopping the blight.  Then all the other grey wardens are killed forcing you into the role of the Mossiah, thus the player unitentionaly falls into the role of the Mossiah, which is a much more cleaver approch to this plot device than most games take.

[Swagger7]

The Messianic Figure is the most overused trope in all of fantasy gaming. I hope it never makes its way into a Dragon Age game.

Personally, I'm not much of a fan of the Tragic Villain, at least not for the main antagonist. It's a good trope for some of the villain's lackeys though. It fits very well with people who are forced to serve the enemy, or people who disagree with their superior's actions but feel forced to serve him/her due to loyalty, duty, etc.

[Reaverwind]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

To be honest I've never actualy played DA2 (Awakening was too much of a letdown). The Messianic figure is a great example though. It's interesting because in DAO your character starts as a fairly normal person caught in an unfortunate situation and forced to join an organization responsible for stopping the blight. Then all the other grey wardens are killed forcing you into the role of the Mossiah, thus the player unitentionaly falls into the role of the Mossiah, which is a much more cleaver approch to this plot device than most games take.

What makes the hero of DA:O more interesting is that he clearly is no saint - he's a character who gets to make some tough calls.

Another plot device which should be used sparingly:

The McGuffin: A plot element used to drive the story which has little explanation and otherwise no purpose. Two glaring examples: The lyrium idol in DA2 and the Eye of Magnus in Skyrim.

[Ausstig]

Reaverwind wrote...

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

To be honest I've never actualy played DA2 (Awakening was too much of a letdown). The Messianic figure is a great example though. It's interesting because in DAO your character starts as a fairly normal person caught in an unfortunate situation and forced to join an organization responsible for stopping the blight. Then all the other grey wardens are killed forcing you into the role of the Mossiah, thus the player unitentionaly falls into the role of the Mossiah, which is a much more cleaver approch to this plot device than most games take.

What makes the hero of DA:O more interesting is that he clearly is no saint - he's a character who gets to make some tough calls.

Another plot device which should be used sparingly:

The McGuffin: A plot element used to drive the story which has little explanation and otherwise no purpose. Two glaring examples: The lyrium idol in DA2 and the Eye of Magnus in Skyrim.

I wouldn't call the idol in DA2 a McGuffin, more like a chekovs gun; set up by Bartrand fired by Meridith. 

A McGuffin, by contrast would be something that the heros are looking for or looking to keep the big bad from. A good example is the Maltese Falcon, from the movie of the same name. The Archdeamon is another example and it seems like Master Li from Jade Empire is one as well, I haven't finished it yet but my main goal is to save him so for now he fits. 

In short a McGuffin is something you could replace with almost anything and not change it's story affect; ie magic button, tie etc.  

[XX-Pyro]

The idol isn't a McGuffin if you take what we "know" about DA3 into consideration.

[Swagger7]

Nizaris1 wrote...

"The Messiah" doesn't always need to be a saint or all good character, but the one who have the character

Look at Darth Vader, he is a symbol of "Dark-Messiah", that is why Darth Vader is the most favorable villain of all time. There are a lot of villains in stories, but Darth Vader is a legend, because his character is built on Messiah-type of a character, the bad one.

The Warden in DA:O is not always a good guy/girl, he/she cannot be considered a Messiah per se, but he/she carrying the value, the story driven the player to become a "Messiah" of Ferelden. The Warden he/she was "chosen by God" (saved by Flemeth), have a mission, unite the land, become the Hero of all (whoever he/she side with), defeat a greatest evil, defeating the evil one (Archdemon), inspire everyone who know him/her

DA2 storyline is not carrying the same Messianic value, the story doesn't make the Champion as a Messiah...Hawke is just a hero, but not a Messiah...Hawke achievement is not on par with the Warden...

DA:O have establish a Messianic story of Hero of Ferelden, suddenly DA2 is not based on that, that is why DA2.... well.... need me to say? It is a sudden change of theme

Neither the Warden nor Hawke were "Messianic Characters".  Messianic has to do with being "the chosen one" or "predicted in prophesy" or something like that, which is completely overused in gaming, and not really special at all.  I personally find it much more impressive for an average person to stand up and unexpectedly turn the tide, rather than someone who's protected by a destiny of some sort.

Modifié par Swagger7, 28 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

First off, the narrative climax of Mass Effect 3 was when the Combined Fleet jumped into Earth orbit and engaged the Reapers.  Everything following, especially once the ground forces have landed, is part of the resolution.  

Mass Effect 1: Driving the Mako through the Conduit, the thing both Shepard and Saren had been looking for the whole game.  The arrival at the Citadel begins the resolution.

Mass Effect 2:  Going through the Omega 4 relay and crash landing on the Collector Base.  Getting there had been your goal the whole game.  Once the crew starts to figure out what to do next, the resolution begins.

DA Origins:   The Landsmeet.  If you're going to be critical of any recent BioWare game's climax, I'd start here.  "The whole game builds spectacularly to that moment" is, in my view, at best debatable.  In my view, DA:O had several mini-arcs - some related, some not - each with their own climax.  Three of the four preliminary stages to the Landsmeet quite literally had nothing at all to do with it.  In terms of an overall narrative, it's pretty weak.  But this strikes me as part of the design that offered more player agency.  You could invent the overall narrative if you wanted and the game did not get in your way by having one of its own.  Mine is certainly far different from Nizaris.  So your mileage may vary.

Dragon Age 2:  Anders blows up the Chantry.  Since one of the games principle themes was the nature of escalation in the buildup to conflict, violence, and war... this is appropriate.  The war starts there, and Anders intentionally escalated the violence to a point where nothing else could happen.  The resolution is determining how the first battle of that war plays out.

Moving on:

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

The Deus Ex Machina
Deus Ex Machina is Latin for "god from the machine"

So far so good.

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

and refers to a plot device in which an all powerful being resolves a seemingly impossible problem.  

This is incorrect, and is a misinterepretation derived from the literal translation.  Originally, the "God from the machine" trope was identified as such because it was literally used in that sense.  Out of nowhere, some contraption lowered an actor playing a god on to the stage (or out from under it) to resolve the plot at the last minute.

The key here isn't that it's god or a machine, it's that it is late arriving, completely unexpected, and resolves the plot.

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

This generally a plot device best avoided.

Not necessarily.  Deus ex machinas can be a lazy way to solve a problem, but it's totally possible to write a good use of it.  The episode of LOST appropriately titled, "Deus Ex Machina" is a recent example of this.  This is what a deus ex machina looks like:



But Mass Effect 3 didn't have one.

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

 We saw it in ME3 where "The catalyst", acts as the god figure giving 3 choices to resolve the conflict, unrelated to previous events of the series.

The Catalyst, the child - his physical being and a concept of importance to Shepard, and the options to both Destroy and Control the Reapers have been present through at least Mass Effect 3.  Shepard himself is a product of Synthesis at the hands of Cerberus.  These are matters of fact and not really open to interpretation.  That the specific nature of the Catalyst - the star child - was unexpected does not mean the importance of it as a Plot Device was never established, or that it being the solution came out of thin air.

By definition, something we learn about in the beginning of the story (From Liara on Mars) cannot be a deus ex machina when it resolves the plot at the end of the story.

When people criticize the ending in this manner, or using these terms, I can only suppose they really mean to say that they did not like and/or did not anticipate the resolution of this mystery:  What does the Catalyst even do?  

It's fine to not like the answer, but it's not a deus ex machina.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 décembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[upsettingshorts]

My Warden wasn't the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy.

[The _Inquisition]

I want the Inquisitor to be a Tragic villain we rarely if ever play as the bad guy in Video games.

[Wolfspawn]

The _Inquisition wrote...

I want the Inquisitor to be a Tragic villain we rarely if ever play as the bad guy in Video games.

While that is an interesting idea, it would be best if that idea didn't touch Dragon Age.

[Wulfram]

Anders was the Messiah. Well, Moses.

[Parmida]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

My Warden wasn't the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy.

Mine was a playboy as well....he'd sleep with anything that moved..

[efrgfhnm_]

Parmida wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

My Warden wasn't the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy.

Mine was a playboy as well....he'd sleep with anything that moved..

I think that line was a Life of Brian reference 

[Swagger7]

Nizaris1 wrote...

A Messiah is the one who change things with his/her presence, like prophets...Jesus change Europe and the world, Muhammad change Arabia and the world...peace be upon them

The Warden change the world, because the world before the Warden presence is not the same as before

Hawke didn't change anything

Look at Luke Skywalker, he never do anything that is nopt related to Jedi vs Sith conflict, yes he took a part in the battle destroying Death Star, but he is not in the army, he never be in the army. his life after meeting with Obi Wan only related to Jedi things, but the story goes as if the world is him, everything goes around him...even the last battle is just happen to be the same time his final confrontation, he didn't do anything that make the battle won by the rebels...but he set balance to the Force...because of that Darkside of the Force lost it's grip...everything are the "work of the Force"...his final confrontation is the representation of everything happen in the universe...he is the Messiah....Yes, Darth Vader is the Messiah too, he too bring balance to the Force....

What i mean is, a Messiah is the one who change the world. The game doesn't need to be similar to DA:O, a Messiah can be in anyway, other than the cliches and niches, overused theme.

But surely The Warden is a "Messiah"...just as in DA:O theme song lyric



http://www.lyricsty....war-lyrics.html

That's not what I thought you were talking about when you began your other post with:

Nizaris1 wrote...

Messianic figure

Often in games
and stories, the hero is a promised one, being waited for a long time,
there is a prophecy, being told in a dream, the one who bring balance to
the world, the one who have a mission to be fulfilled, defeating the
greatest evil, the one who unite the land, the hero of everyone...

That's the part I was talking about.  I'm perfectly fine with the PC having a massive impact on the world (in fact I prefer a scenario like that), but that has nothing to do with being a Messianic Figure.

[Swagger7]

Nizaris1 wrote...

yeah...i only outline the stereotypical Messiah character...the warden is not the awaited, promised one, being told in someone dream who turn out to be the Emperor of Tamriel...but the Warden have the Messiah other values

My point is, every remembered hero and villain have a quality of a Messiah...good Messiah or bad Messiah...that is the only recipe of a successful story of all time...

Look at Spiderman 1 to 3 movie, Peter Parker is not a promised one, but his character is a Messiah character, that shown in Spiderman form

Um, no.  There are plenty of successful stories that don't have a messiah type of character as the hero, either by the normal definition or by your definition (which really seems to be stretching it by the way).

[TCBC_Freak]

There are no bad tropes or ideas in writing or storytelling of any kind, just bad implementation. A Deus ex Machina isn't bad in-and-of itself; nor is the McGuffin, Red Herring, or any other trope or idiom. Good writing can make these things happen very well and be epic moments we remember.

[Swagger7]

Nizaris1 wrote...

All stories that have Messianic premise will boom, and become the best seller...

Not if they're written poorly.  Also, I still don't think most of the characters you mentioned are Messianic.  I don't recall many superhero comics having prophecies fortelling the coming of the hero.  A messianic figure is more than just a hero who saves the world you know.

[Jonata]

"sussesses" is kind of a sexy word.