151 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Quirkylilela wrote...

It isn't xenophobia to acknowledge English is our first language while it isn't for Nizaris stop trying to turn us into bad guys for disagreeing with you. The definition of messiah as I've always known it was that it was as person prophecised/awaited as a religious savior. Before I entered the argument I first checked definitions of both messiah and messianic and while not all the definitions have been religious they have all had some word implying the need for anticipation of the person in order to be a messiah or messiah-like.

She said in her initial post there was no religious context behind The Warden as a messianic figure. She said there was no prophecy involved. Simply, The Warden has other characteristics of a Messiah hero.

Nizaris wrote...

DA:O is actually a messianic type of a game/story but the protagonist/main character never know he/she is actually a Messiah, because there is no prophecy or something anywhere mentioned in the game/story, but what he/she do is actually what a Messiah character do...that is the key success of DA:O

The character is messianic. They suffer underserved tragedy in each Origin story. Gain a group of devoted followers. They're persecuted by non-believers -- those who don't believe in the merit of the Grey Wardens ending the Blight and label them King killers. They are Ferelden's only salvation. And most importantly to Nizaris' argument, they have a base purpose, understood motivation, while Hawke does not.

On top of that for all you know every warden out there besides your own could have killed the arch demon out of self preservation and taken all of the evil choices or a mix of good and bad and not tried to change the world for good or bad in which case they can barely even be called a hero.

The Messiah figure does not have to carry the idealistic personality traits of Christ or another Messiah figure, or follow exactly in their footsteps to be a Messianic hero (or even an Idealized hero for the sake of argument). From TVtropes.com, "The Messianic Archetype is about the role the character has in the events of the plot, and can have any personality traits, even overtly villainous ones. Even spawns of The Devil themselves can be Messianic Archetypes (such as the more messianic versions of the Antichrist). It's also not necessary for the archetypal character to be even remotely Christian."

Traits can also be mixed and matched. The Warden is a Messianic acrhetype despite a lack of anticipation or prophecy. They possess so many of the other traits. There is promise, however. Legend and reality reveal only the Grey Wardens can slay the Archdemon, and as the leader of the only two Wardens in Ferelden during the 5th Blight, they fit the Messianic archetype as a promised defender.

And the OP explained The Warden becoming a Messianic hero perfectly:

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

It's interesting because in DAO your character starts as a fairly normal person caught in an unfortunate situation and forced to join an organization responsible for stopping the blight. Then all the other grey wardens are killed forcing you into the role of the Mossiah, thus the player unitentionaly falls into the role of the Mossiah, which is a much more cleaver approch to this plot device than most games take.

Now since none of you have written a clear definition of what messiah/messiah-like actually means in your opinion(without contradicting yourself from now on please) how about we start again there.

I don't think there is need to be snide. We rely on the trope and make literary comparisons. And she doesn't contradict herself. I think this is a language barrier clarification issue, but Nizaris isn't using the word love wrongly in her earlier posts. I don't believe she means a Messiah figure must have the personal affection and adoring sentiment of everyone. Simply, the Messiah figure is widely appreciated as a hero, loved as a savior of all. The Warden is at the close of DA:O. Hawke is not at the end of DA2.

Also let's please keep this civil the thread doesn't need to be locked just because we disagree and please stop labeling us as anti-messiah/xenophobic there is really no need to over react.

You're telling her she doesn't understand a topic or defintion she clearly does because she isn't a native speaker. You're misunderstanding her and attempting to make her look ignorant and that is unjust.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:29 .

[Hainkpe]

Nizaris1 wrote... messianic heroes are idealistic heroes...what is the problem?

Idealistic heroes are not always messianic. Idealistic heroes are those characters that maintain a standard of perfection while doing a distinguished courageous act or ability. A messiah is a deliverer or leader of a cause or project. 

Not all messianic figures are heroes. At least not in the traditional western definition. Prophets like Jesus, Moses or Muhammad, peace be upon them, were deliverers of their people. Yet only one of them, Moses, exhibited any heroic type of behavior. Idealized heroes are not always characters that have positive characteristics. Idealized heroes can take on negative attributes. Anti-heroes or vigilantes like Batman or Spiderman. 

Not all heroes are deliverers. The Avengers, Iron man et al, are defenders and if they fail, they would be avenging those they defend. So heroes can have messianic characteristics but that does not mean they are messianic heroes. 

The difficulty is the mixing of western and Islamic views when it comes to those characteristics. Religion meeting pop culture and finding commonalities, inshallah. 

Modifié par Belyn, 02 janvier 2013 - 06:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

It's become common that if your main character can die, they they are immediately a messianic hero.

DA:O had the option of sacrificing yourself to save the world if you refused the Dark Ritual. So people make the comparison a lot.

[Hainkpe]

I think the issue arises due to the erroneous correlation between messiah and connection with the divine. When in fact it's simply being a leader and delivering the people to a better circumstance. The "chosen one" trope is found quite heavily in western Sci Fi ad Fantasy. We all want to be special.

Also, I was wrong. Muhammad, peace be upon him, did do heroic acts. Unfortunately most people of the Christian faith may not know of the stories about his life. People of the Book, have commonalities in the history of the religions but that does not equate to awareness.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

double post! next one was better.

Modifié par Legatus Arianus, 02 janvier 2013 - 07:52 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

@Belyn, There was ancient branches in Christianity till 7th century that had considered less divinity for Jesus, like "Arianism" which I approve!

[Hainkpe]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

@Belyn, There was ancient branches in Christianity till 7th century that had considered less divinity for Jesus, like "Arianism" which I approve!

Indeed. You are correct, sir.  

[Quirkylilela]

Youth4ever: Yes I realized before I posted there didn't need to be any religious aspect for them to be messiah/messiah-like I said as much in the post you quoted.

Having a purpose, followers and enemies doesn't make the warden messiah-like it was basically a country on the verge of civil war of course there was going to be people against the warden.

Lol tvtropes definition that is different to every other definition there is sure ok and there does need to be anticipation if you use any other definition in the world.

There was no promise at best they were expecting the grey wardens would kill the archdemon but that's as much a 'prophecised/anticipated savior' as the police are if you call them it's their job it would be silly otherwise. Then there's the fact that alot of people don't even believe there's a blight so it's kind of hard for them to believe in a savior against nothing.

Yes that person explained the basic plot of the game then put 'messiah' in there that doesn't mean that the warden is one. I'm saying she doesn't understand because apart from tv tropes definition which seems to just be a term for a certain type of character rather than an accurate definition of either messiah/messianic no other site I've looked at agrees with her definition. Whether it was a language issue or not she said the exact opposite things in two different posts that means she is contradicting herself.

Nizaris: now you've done a complete 180 and you're saying there is a religious connection even though the actual existence of the maker is actually in question. Also flemeth didn't make a prophecy she believed the warden could do the job believing in someone is hardly a prophecy.

What I meant by the idealistic hero bit(even I was wary of using it because the warden needn't be anything like it) was that the warden had everything required to be a messiah besides the anticipation which I'm struggling to find a word for. However those traits just because messiahs might have them are no more messianic characteristics than a beard is they have the characteristics but they aren't what makes them messiahs what does that is them being 'prophecised saviors' nothing else is needed to qualify.

[Quirkylilela]

Also I don't quite things that happen in the origins count as "...A sizable sacrifice as the means of bringing that salvation about for others, a fate they do not deserve up to and including death or a fate worse than death." and the definition literally says that sacrifice is needed. Let's look at the Mage origin story my Mage broke the law and helped a blood Mage escape now it could be debated that the imprisonment was unjust but that's not certain many people see it as perfectly justifiable. Then if the sacrifice is the final battle against the archdemon my Mage got it on with morrigan so she could use the spell and noone died so no sacrifice. So the only characteristic in common with tv tropes definition was having a group of followers and that hardly makes my character messiah-like even by that clearly wrong definition.

[Quirkylilela]

Nizaris: what if allistair kills the archdemon? Or loghain? The warden isn't the only one who can kill it. Hell what if you use morrigans spell to make the OGB then noone needs to sacrifice themselves which the tvtropes definition actually requires to be messiah-like.

[Quirkylilela]

Um there was hope ferelden might have fallen but it wasn't the end of the world even slightly. What if the warden passes out in the final battle though what if the wardens purpose wasn't to defeat the evil but to set allistair on his path to become he savior?

[Johanna]

So, it's okay to say xenophobic things but it isn't okay to point out that xenophobic things are being said to a person clearly considered by some to be an outsider due to her native tongue. Right.

If this thread is closed you can blame it on the xenophobia. Maybe re-examine yourselves. But of course it will be easier for you to whinge about the person who told you that you're acting like buttholes.

[Dhiro]

I don't really think that it needs to be saved, or that a messianic theme is what they would need if that was the case.

[esper]

Nizaris1 wrote...

messianic theme can be shown in many ways...like i have mention about the superheroes...but it always be

- a dark time either literally the world is infested by demons, plague, crime lord, zombies, aliens, machine..ect
- the people are in despair because of those things
- a person come to set things right
- the source of those evil things against the person
- the hero sacrifice everything to strive against those evil things
- the source of those evil things are anti-hero, a complete backward from hero
- the hero is "light", the enemy is "dark"
- the hero is the savior

That is messianic theme of a story, that is the basis of most popular stories, comic, movies of all time...some may deny, but the most popular theme is Messianic theme.

The hero may not be super powerful, all good, always successful, but the hero is there and things changed because of the hero...that what a Messiah do

Example, Robert Nevile a character from I Am Legend, what he do is only to find a cure for the virus, and he died attacked by the zombie, but not before he pass the cure to a girl who later manage to pass it to the survivors

Eli, an old dude who believe he is on a mission from God to secure the last Bible on earth, he is actually crazy, he only get lucky because of some guys do believe something out of him, making them not really want to kill him, but he got shot and almost die anyway...many parts in the movie showing he is just crazy, but the story make us believe he is somewhat the Chosen One...at last he manage to secure the Bible in the form of memorizing it and someone written it

Another example is the Terminator

The key is to make the main character feel important in large scale...no one want to watch a movie that show a farmer who everyday doing his farming thing, then somehow he become rich, later he become lord of a town, then he vanish...

What makes the hero is important is his/her enemy...Batman is boring if there is no Joker, Riddler, Two Face....those anti-heroes are the Dark-Messiah, the agent of destruction, a complete opposite of the Messiah/Batman, always fighting over what the Messiah/Batman established, challenging philosophy and faith...that make the story enjoyable

Archdemon destroy everything, The Warden save everything...darkspawn is the representative of the evil force, The Warden companions is the representative of good force...

You really need to read the book of I am Legend. Robert Neville does die a legend, but not a good one. He dies as a horror legend. I have not watched the movie, but if that is how they ended it they totally botched the endning and changed the whole meaning of the story and not in a good way.

Anti-hero is not a dark messiah and Batman is an anti-hero in most adaptions. Anti-hero is a hero (here meaning protagonist, but doesn't have to) which has traits that classical heroes would also have. Those traits are often dominant enough to go beyond a simple flaw.Anti-hero is an actual establish term in literary analysis.

But then again, I see you have changed your definition again. Are you going for tvtropes definition now? Or The actual meaning of the word messiah? Those to things are not the same and we need to know.

Anyway, as I said way back in my first post here it is possible to play the warden close enough to an idealized hero with an ultimate sacrifice, but some factors prevents them from being a messiah even if they do that. Do all the 'right' choices (And have fun arguing what is morally right) and your legend still does not strech beyond Fereldan and even in Fereldan it is not unified a good legend. Da2 just underlined that. The Warden did not bring Fereldan together beyond the blight, the warden wasn't necessary to stop the blight. A warden was, any warden in fact. And had the blight not been stopped in Fereldan, the wardens in Orlais would certainly have managed. The warden saved Fereldan, not the world.

But most important of all. The warden is a namelss figure to most of the world. To the general population of the world, s/he was just a part of a mysterious group that stops the blights. There is no hint of something religous or otherwise spiritual inspiration needed for an messiah, no hint of a savior of the world "only" the savior of a country. They are a national hero, which is nothing to scorn at, but I have a slight feeling that it is not enough for you. 

[lil yonce]

Quirkylilela wrote...

Youth4ever: Yes I realized before I posted there didn't need to be any religious aspect for them to be messiah/messiah-like I said as much in the post you quoted.

But you assume still that that there must be explict anticipation or prophecy as in traditional Messiah defintions -- conventions not stubbornly stuck to in literature -- for the hero to be considered a Messiah character. That is untrue as I attempted to explain in the proceeding paragraphs.

Having a purpose, followers and enemies doesn't make the warden messiah-like it was basically a country on the verge of civil war of course there was going to be people against the warden.

You can't ignore the other characteristics I mentioned as well. It will not help you make your argument. It undercuts it. All seven I listed work in concert to produce a Messiah Hero. The Civil War plot does not change the character archetype. It aids in its creation and execution.

Lol tvtropes definition that is different to every other definition there is sure ok and there does need to be anticipation if you use any other definition in the world.

It's a literary trope. You wouldn't use a religious defintion to create or analyze secular writing in this context. It would be too restrictive, and adhereing to too many restrictions in modern writing often makes characters and storylines redundant and boring so they're avoided.

There was no promise at best they were expecting the grey wardens would kill the archdemon but that's as much a 'prophecised/anticipated savior' as the police are if you call them it's their job it would be silly otherwise. Then there's the fact that alot of people don't even believe there's a blight so it's kind of hard for them to believe in a savior against nothing.

Yes, there is promise. There does not have to be any explicit anticipation for the hero, however. Ferelden doesn't have to believe The Warden in particular will be their savior. All that matters is that the character is in some form a promised Choosen One and becomes their savior.

And a police officer could be a messianic character in the right context. Not in your comparison, however. Being a cog in general task force is different from being specialzed soldier in extreme conditions that rises as a country's only hope of salvation.

Yes that person explained the basic plot of the game then put 'messiah' in there that doesn't mean that the warden is one.

The Warden fits the Messiah archetype. Honestly compare their storyline and characteristics to the Messiah trope. The similarites cannot be denied.

I'm saying she doesn't understand because apart from tv tropes definition which seems to just be a term for a certain type of character rather than an accurate definition of either messiah/messianic no other site I've looked at agrees with her definition.

The tvtropes defintion is accurate for modern literary composition and study. Nizaris has argued The Warden as a Messiah Hero archetype. She uses a defintion that estabishes the Messiah Hero as a trope, a device that can be manipulated in writing for desired effect, and not a strict religious defintion because it is not germane to her argument.

Whether it was a language issue or not she said the exact opposite things in two different posts that means she is contradicting herself.

She did not contradict herself. Be understanding. English is not her first language. Importantly, love has more than one defintion, and Nizaris uses different defintions of the word in context from the two posts you cite.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:13 .

[Swagger7]

pants witch wrote...

So, it's okay to say xenophobic things but it isn't okay to point out that xenophobic things are being said to a person clearly considered by some to be an outsider due to her native tongue. Right.

If this thread is closed you can blame it on the xenophobia. Maybe re-examine yourselves. But of course it will be easier for you to whinge about the person who told you that you're acting like buttholes.

Point to one thing I said that was xenophobic.  (Provided you even know what that word means, which I am starting to doubt.)

Modifié par Swagger7, 03 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[Quirkylilela]

You assume she was using two different definitions but the fact remains that she said the complete opposite thing. Also the tvtrope definition that was linked before doesn't fit the warden because as I said before the warden need not make any great sacrifice which is a part(non optional like the other characteristics listed). I really don't see the point in arguing further since we're basically just disagreeing on the definition of a single word but I'll keep watching the thread if I change my mind.

[lil yonce]

Quirkylilela wrote...

You assume she was using two different definitions but the fact remains that she said the complete opposite thing.

I don't assume. It's revealed in the context of her posts. Try to focus on her intent in those posts and not only the word she uses to make her point.

Also the tvtrope definition that was linked before doesn't fit the warden because as I said before the warden need not make any great sacrifice which is a part(non optional like the other characteristics listed).

Also I don't quite things that happen in the origins count as "...A sizable sacrifice as the means of bringing that salvation about for others, a fate they do not deserve up to and including death or a fate worse than death." and the definition literally says that sacrifice is needed. Let's look at the Mage origin story my Mage broke the law and helped a blood Mage escape now it could be debated that the imprisonment was unjust but that's not certain many people see it as perfectly justifiable. Then if the sacrifice is the final battle against the archdemon my Mage got it on with morrigan so she could use the spell and noone died so no sacrifice. So the only characteristic in common with tv tropes definition was having a group of followers and that hardly makes my character messiah-like even by that clearly wrong definition.

I noted above, in both of my posts, that traits of the Messiah trope can be mixed and matched. There is no strict checklist to adhere to in creating a Messiah archetype. The trope can be manipulated for desired effect. The Ultimate Sacrifice, death is unnecssary. There is a form of sizable sacrifice, however.

Youth4Ever wrote...

Traits can also be mixed and matched. The Warden is a Messianic acrhetype despite a lack of anticipation or prophecy. They possess so many of the other traits.

You can assume that the lack of self sacrifice also does not invalidate The Warden as a Messiah Hero. The only true universal requirement of the trope is to be a "Choosen Savior" and endure what that entails. That includes sacrifice, but that does not specify death. I mention it again here:

Youth4Ever wrote...

The tvtropes defintion is accurate for modern literary composition and study. Nizaris has argued The Warden as a Messiah Hero archetype.She uses a defintion that estabishes the Messiah Hero as a trope, a device that can be manipulated in writing for desired effect, and not a strict religious defintion because it is not germaine to her argument.

Character sacrifice, the optional Ultimate Sacrifice at the end of Origins, is not required. They suffer elsewhere. Each Origin story requires the Warden to give up their life for a new one. The absense of a death, one optional trait does not invalidate every other messianic trait. It does not exclude the Warden as a Messiah Hero. It remains that Ferelden could not be saved without The Warden's contributions.

I really don't see the point in arguing further since we're basically just disagreeing on the definition of a single word but I'll keep watching the thread if I change my mind.

You're using a wrong defintion, too strict of a defintion in this context. You're attempting to force optional conventions, in this instance the "Hero Play", onto the core of a versatile and accepted Messiah Hero trope, and then use your definition to say we're wrong in our analysis.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 janvier 2013 - 02:53 .

[Swagger7]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Many western writers actually copying Muslim end time prophecy and make it into their stories.

For example, The Lord of the Ring, it is messianic theme story. They only took away the prophecy, but the whole premise is actually Muslim end time situation. LotR is about the Yakjuj Makjuj (Orcs), the Dajjal the One Eyed Dark Messiah (Sauron), Al Mahdi and Jesus (Aragorn and Gandalf), battle in Middle Earth (Middle East)



Another one is Transformers the movie, not the cartoon one, also based on end time Muslim prophecy and have Messianic theme. Thre is always two figures, Al Mahdi and Jesus (Sam and Optimus Prime), the Dajjal (in this movie there are many, Shockwave, Megatron and Sentinel), well in Islam there are 30 Dajjals before the actual Dajjal come out, about the 5 Pillars (pillars of faith in Islam is 5), about the Cube (Kaabah in Makkah is Cube building)...in the last movie Sam is depicted as "The Messenger", in Islm prophet are "Messengers", in actual Arabic word "Nabi" meaning "Messenger"

Another one is Batman and Robin...

Morpheous and Neo...

The Terminator and the guy i forgot his name

There are many more

even Dragon Age : Origins

What?     

Hey, Nizaris apologists!  Are you going to stand up and defend this as well?  Perhaps if I only tried a little harder to understand it would make perfect sense?!?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

How does it feel to spend so much time defending a person's opinions and then have the rug pulled out from under you by a post like that?