142 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

mousestalker wrote...

More seriously, that Bioware used the name 'Morrigan' has long made me wonder if they are referencing the Morgaine Cycle stories by C J Cherryh. If so, then both Morrigan and Flemeth would need to be reconsidered.

From what I understand she was named after an Irish goddess of war and death

[PsychoBlonde]

iakus wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

More seriously, that Bioware used the name 'Morrigan' has long made me wonder if they are referencing the Morgaine Cycle stories by C J Cherryh. If so, then both Morrigan and Flemeth would need to be reconsidered.

From what I understand she was named after an Irish goddess of war and death

Or possibly a group of goddesses.  There are a number of myths.

[PsychoBlonde]

iakus wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I can`t really remember Flemeth ever lying to any of my DA characters. Morrigan, however, does that.

She lies to you right when she saves you about why she saved you. 

Did she?

She seems to be a master at giving dodgy answers and avoiding questions.  but I don't recall her ever outright lying.

Granted, since it's basically impossible to either confirm or deny anything she says, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?!?!?

[mousestalker]

Creators rarely limit themselves to one influence as well. There could be any number of inspirations for Flemeth and Morrigan ranging from mythology, literary archetypes, tvtropes.com and that barrista with the attitude at the coffee shop.

[PsychoBlonde]

mousestalker wrote...

Creators rarely limit themselves to one influence as well. There could be any number of inspirations for Flemeth and Morrigan ranging from mythology, literary archetypes, tvtropes.com and that barrista with the attitude at the coffee shop.

That, and just because something is referenced as an "inspiration", that doesn't mean the result can't be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.  It depends on what exactly about that source the artist found inspiring and what they decided to do with it.

Heck, I've had things inspire me to create characters and stories that were complete trope inversions or way off in left field somewhere.  Expecting the theory of gravity to look like an apple or a steam engine to look like a teakettle means misunderstanding how the whole creative process works.

[DragonMage95]

I personally think neither are "good". I think one is more "evil" than the other. In my opinion Flemeth is most definitely not someone who will turn out to be good. I think if anyone turns out to be good it will be Morrigan. Flemeth is to power hungry and mysterious to be someone that I could see saving the world and etc. I believe Flemeth wants complete control of the world and she doesn't care how she gets it, that to me is why I think she's the last person to turn out "good". Morrigan on the other hand has potential to be "good' . I think she has a good head on her shoulders and a some what good heart. Also her plan just seems less "evil" to me, her plan seems to be freedom and equality for everyone in Thedas (especially mages) and not world domination with her Old God Baby at her side. But thats just what I think, but who knows?

[gneisenau556]

I would love a moment when you kill a major villain only to discover they were actually a good guy/gal.

[PsychoBlonde]

gneisenau556 wrote...

I would love a moment when you kill a major villain only to discover they were actually a good guy/gal.

Well, goodISH.  If they were "good" you wouldn't have to kill them because they'd freakin' hear you out and you could instead join forces.

[apascone]

bleetman wrote...

What do you mean "if". It's Morrigan. I can't say I'm currently assuming she's going to raise her god baby to make the world's greatest maceroni and cheese, whilst using Flemeth's tome to prop up a wonky chair leg. She's up to something.

I'd be surprised if Flemeth turned out to be "good", course. What with all the people she supposedly murders. I'd also be slightly confused as to why she couldn't just dragon form it up and eat Morrigan before we ever meet either of them, but hey.

How many people did the Warden and Hawke kill. Does this make them evil? You don't know the whole story. You also don't know flemeths side.

[zambingo]

OP

It's possible that both Flemeth and Morrigan are "good".

They just have different POVs about how to go about doing "good".

PsychoBlonde wrote...

gneisenau556 wrote...

I would love a moment when you kill a major villain only to discover they were actually a good guy/gal.

Well,goodISH.  If they were "good" you wouldn't have to kill them because they'd freakin' hear you out and you could instead join forces.

Totally not true. Good people can have such differing view points about how something needs to be done that they will not see eye to eye and join forces. It doesn't make one or both evil.

Modifié par zambingo, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Kidd]

Saibh wrote...

When you raise a little girl and kill her and take over her body, then she is evil.

Flemeth might not be out to destroy the world, but she's definitely not a "good" person. She's been killing her daughters for millenia. She was also pretty emotional neglectful and abusive as a mother, as far as we know. I know we meet Morrigan as a callous adult, but she was once a little girl with feelings. You wouldn't think good things of a mother who did the type of things Flemeth did to Morrigan.

While Flemeth's case is certainly more extreme, Maric isn't the most perfect father either and he's definitely a good person from what we know. Her taking the body of her daughters may not be quite as barbaric and evil as it sounds to those uneducated (and Morrigan would seem to be among that group).

This is of course me playing devil's advocate. But there is so much we don't know. Flemeth could be trying to save the entire world with the most precise and secure method, leaving as little as possible to chance, no matter what she will have to do. This will make us think she seems horrible, while in reality only her methods are. Hardly evil. Theoretically.

[Iakus]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Saibh wrote...

When you raise a little girl and kill her and take over her body, then she is evil.

Flemeth might not be out to destroy the world, but she's definitely not a "good" person. She's been killing her daughters for millenia. She was also pretty emotional neglectful and abusive as a mother, as far as we know. I know we meet Morrigan as a callous adult, but she was once a little girl with feelings. You wouldn't think good things of a mother who did the type of things Flemeth did to Morrigan.

While Flemeth's case is certainly more extreme, Maric isn't the most perfect father either and he's definitely a good person from what we know. Her taking the body of her daughters may not be quite as barbaric and evil as it sounds to those uneducated (and Morrigan would seem to be among that group).

This is of course me playing devil's advocate. But there is so much we don't know. Flemeth could be trying to save the entire world with the most precise and secure method, leaving as little as possible to chance, no matter what she will have to do. This will make us think she seems horrible, while in reality only her methods are. Hardly evil. Theoretically.

We don't even know if Flemeth really does that body-hopping routine.  We only have Morrigan's word that it's true.  And she could very well be lying, or wrong herself.  In Witch Hunt Morrigan claims Flemeth is more than she thought, and is "hardly human at all" or something like that.

Flemeth herself neither confirms nor denies, well, anything really about her past. 

She may be good, evil, or neither.  Whatever her agenda or methods are, she's playing things close to the vest.

[PsychoBlonde]

zambingo wrote...

Totally not true. Good people can have such differing view points about how something needs to be done that they will not see eye to eye and join forces. It doesn't make one or both evil.

If your view of the good means that you can't let people who aren't hurting anyone disagree and go their own way, you are evil.  You may not be able to bring yourself join forces with them, but if you force them to fight you to the death, you just gave up all claim to being a good person.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[Fiacre]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

zambingo wrote...

Totally not true. Good people can have such differing view points about how something needs to be done that they will not see eye to eye and join forces. It doesn't make one or both evil.

If your view of the good means that you can't let people who aren't hurting anyone disagree and go their own way, you are evil.  You may not be able to bring yourself join forces with them, but if you force them to fight you to the death, you just gave up all claim to being a good person.

And who says you're not the evil one from their point of view? Perfectly possible.

[Saerwen]

I think Flemeth just wants to endure. She seems to do what she thinks is necessary to endure.
~Helping Maric, telling him a blight is coming.
~Helps the Wardens, to also save herself, but gives the nice answer that it helps everyone
~Sends Morrigan out with the Warden to become more powerful... this is more dubious, do we believe that she body snatches her daughters? Or does the Old God baby fit into her plans?
~Preserves herself in an amulet, just in case Morrigan decides to try and off her,.
~Shows up and saves Hawke, has Hawke "save" her, or whatever that was that ritual does.
I am not sure she is good or evil, I agree with a previous poster, keep her in the grey area.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Rawgrim wrote...

She hasn`t done anything evil in the games so far. She seems more...neutral than good or evil.

Raising girls in order to possess their bodies is kind of evil. Other than that, I would have to agree with you. Neutral.

[The Hierophant]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

She hasn`t done anything evil in the games so far. She seems more...neutral than good or evil.

Raising girls in order to possess their bodies is kind of evil. Other than that, I would have to agree with you. Neutral.

That's only if we take Morrigan's words at face value as we weren't allowed to read the book, and she had a survivng sister who didn't look or sound like she was possessed by Flemeth before Alistair penetrated her.

[lil yonce]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

She hasn`t done anything evil in the games so far. She seems more...neutral than good or evil.

Raising girls in order to possess their bodies is kind of evil. Other than that, I would have to agree with you. Neutral

We know that she didn't possess one of her daughters, so that's either situational, incredibly embellished, or altogether untrue.

And that vengeful lovesick wife of legend may not have been the same Flemeth we think of now either. Flemeth says names are pretty, but useless. I think everything Morrigan says in her tale of Flemeth is true, but maybe that was a different person entirely and the Flemeth we know just took on her persona because it was convient and useful. Maybe that Flemeth was chased into the forest by the "spirits" she summoned rather than by Conobar's men and they killed her, and the "demon" was some other entity that took her place to achieve some noble end.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

As a general rule of thumb, I find that anyone who unnaturally extends their life over 100 years is most definitely evil. Not that this makes Morrigan any less evil mind, but one problem at time.

I find that anyone who possess her own daughters to prevent aging, against their will, is like rape. And I do not view rapists as good. 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

The Hierophant wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

She hasn`t done anything evil in the games so far. She seems more...neutral than good or evil.

Raising girls in order to possess their bodies is kind of evil. Other than that, I would have to agree with you. Neutral.

That's only if we take Morrigan's words at face value as we weren't allowed to read the book, and she had a survivng sister who didn't look or sound like she was possessed by Flemeth before Alistair penetrated her.

So you're going to take Flemeth's riddle and vague words at face value? How well do you know Flemeth? Did you spend hours of every nights at camp trying to know her? I screwed Morrigan every nights, enough to know that My Morrigan, despite her selfishness, is more trustworthy than Flemeth.  

[HurricaneGinger]

She's the kid with the magnifying glass burning the feelers off of ants. She may also toss some food now and then, other than that, she likes to watch them squirm.

[snackrat]

I pictured her more as Chaotic Neutral. She has her own agenda, but she's not going to step on anyone to get it. She saves the Warden, helps them save the world, she saves Hawke, takes them safely to a port, and there's smatterings of helpful advice and warnings in both.

On the other hand, she has a tome filled with body-snatching. Soooo... huh.

[Redbelle]

Dasher1010 wrote...

What if Morrigan is really the evil one and Flemeth is actually trying to save the world from her? Would anyone else expect that?

Heh......um....... Well we all make mistake's....... right?

So let's put this silly business of cutting her in half, decapitating the head and burning the body behind us. It could have happened to anyone who raised an adopted daughter for the purpose of possessing her later.

In fact, Flemeth should be thanking us for intervening before the Templer social service's got involved!

That said........... I did sorta give Morrigan a child god to raise and I'm not so sure she's got the parenting skills needed to do the job. If that god child comes back and start's burning human's with a magnifying lens I'll know where he got it from.

[Iakus]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
So you're going to take Flemeth's riddle and vague words at face value? How well do you know Flemeth? Did you spend hours of every nights at camp trying to know her? I screwed Morrigan every nights, enough to know that My Morrigan, despite her selfishness, is more trustworthy than Flemeth.  

I'm not taking anyone's words at face value.  Flemeth reduses togive a straight anwer and Morrigan could very easily be deceiving me (she knew all along about how an archdemon is slain) or wrong (at the end of Witch Hunt she claims Flemeth is not what she thought she was)

[Sacred_Fantasy]

iakus wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
So you're going to take Flemeth's riddle and vague words at face value? How well do you know Flemeth? Did you spend hours of every nights at camp trying to know her? I screwed Morrigan every nights, enough to know that My Morrigan, despite her selfishness, is more trustworthy than Flemeth.  

I'm not taking anyone's words at face value.  Flemeth reduses togive a straight anwer and Morrigan could very easily be deceiving me (she knew all along about how an archdemon is slain) or wrong (at the end of Witch Hunt she claims Flemeth is not what she thought she was)

She doesn't reveal DR or wrong doesn't mean she deceives. BioWare choose not  to reveal DA 3 atm, does that mean BioWare deceive the players? BioWare was wrong with their idea of showing changes through space and time with unchangeable Kirkwall, does that mean BioWare deceive the players? Outdated fact some time ago can be proven false todays, does that mean those facts lies? Information could change. We argue ( or choose to remain silence ) on many things based on what we know, especially with regards to DA 3. What if DA 3 turn out to be something none ever think of? Does that mean we deceive each other?

If you want to blame someone, you may as well blame Flemeth for it. Morrigan doesn't want to "be sent away", to help you and Alistair with the Blight in the first place. As a mater of fact, she wants you and Alistair to leave the hut as soon as possible. But It was Flemeth who insist her to go.  

Plus the Black Grimoire is written by Flemeth herself and she takes great effort to conseal it, why would she does that if the Black Grismoire is false?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 29 décembre 2012 - 07:06 .