142 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

She doesn't reveal DR or wrong doesn't mean she deceives. BioWare choose not  to not reveal DA 3 atm, does that mean BioWare deceive the players? BioWare was wrong with their idea of showing changes through space and time with unchangeable Kirkwall, does that mean BioWare deceive the players? Outdated fact some time ago can be proven false todays, does that mean those facts lies? Information could change. We argue ( or choose to remain silence ) on many things based on what we know, especially with regards to DA 3. What if DA 3 turn out to be something none ever think of? Does that mean we deceive each other?  

Umm, what?

Morrigan knew the entire time that killing the archdemon meant a Grey Warden dies.  It was the entire purpose for her joining the group!  Which meant any reluctance she showed at joining up was likely feigned.  Heck enter into a romance with her, and several party members can tell Morrigan's plotting something.

Don't take this as a dislike for Morrigan.  It's not.  I simply acknowledge that Morrigan is not entirely forthwright even with the player character.

And being wrong isn't the same thing as lying.  I specifically seperated teh two.  Morrigan can very well be telling the truth as she saw it, but is mistaken.  Again I direct you to the end of Witch hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned.  I thought what she craved was immortality.  Yet I was wrong, so very wrong.  She is no blood mage, no abomination.  She is not even truly human"

[elfdwarf]

do you trust your companions?
for me, i do trust my companions

[Sacred_Fantasy]

iakus wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

She doesn't reveal DR or wrong doesn't mean she deceives. BioWare choose not  to not reveal DA 3 atm, does that mean BioWare deceive the players? BioWare was wrong with their idea of showing changes through space and time with unchangeable Kirkwall, does that mean BioWare deceive the players? Outdated fact some time ago can be proven false todays, does that mean those facts lies? Information could change. We argue ( or choose to remain silence ) on many things based on what we know, especially with regards to DA 3. What if DA 3 turn out to be something none ever think of? Does that mean we deceive each other?  

Umm, what?

Morrigan knew the entire time that killing the archdemon meant a Grey Warden dies.  It was the entire purpose for her joining the group!  Which meant any reluctance she showed at joining up was likely feigned.  Heck enter into a romance with her, and several party members can tell Morrigan's plotting something.

Read my post again. I've edited it. Sorry for my slow internet connection. 

iakus wrote...
 It was the entire purpose for her joining the group!  Which meant any reluctance she showed at joining up was likely feigned.

No it wasn't. Her entire purpose is whether to brew more stews for the guests or not. It appear to me that she didn't want you and Alistair to stay any longer. She didn't even know she would be sent away by Flemeth. So it's Flemeth's plan. Not Morrigan. It's weird you didn't notice her reluctance to go along with you and Alistair considering Alistair clearly disliked her.   

iakus wrote...

And being wrong isn't the same thing as lying.  I specifically seperated teh two.  Morrigan can very well be telling the truth as she saw it, but is mistaken.  Again I direct you to the end of Witch hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned.  I thought what she craved was immortality.  Yet I was wrong, so very wrong.  She is no blood mage, no abomination.  She is not even truly human"

So you are suggesting Morrigan is mistaken with the Black Grimoire as well? Do you aware there is another Grimoire beside the Black Grimoire? Are you claiming both the Black Grimoire and Flemeth's Grimore + Robe of Possession could be false evidence? 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 29 décembre 2012 - 07:47 .

[Yalision]

Lol, I think Bioware's remaining fans, myself included, would finally just give up with that kind of ridiculous crap.

[Lamepro]

 Flemeth can very much play the roll of the mysterious character like the Illusive man I believe that is what Bioware intended to do to make the story interesting enough to flow well for the game.

[SafetyShattered]

Yalision wrote...

Lol, I think Bioware's remaining fans, myself included, would finally just give up with that kind of ridiculous crap.

This.

[Quirkylilela]

She is as good as Glenda from the wizard of oz. The same Glenda who forced a teenage girl to wear the ruby slippers that a witch was trying to kill her for then sends her off on a journey with the hidden motive of killing her enemy the witch only to finally reveal Dorothy had the means to go home the entire time.

[Bfler]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 So it's Flemeth's plan. Not Morrigan. It's weird you didn't notice her reluctance to go along with you and Alistair considering Alistair clearly disliked her.   

I am not the best, when it comes to interpretation of peoples intentions, but the thing that  I  noticed when I saw the scene for the first time, where Morrigan has to join your group, is, that her protest is faked. 

The entire time in your group her tongue much sharper during discussions.

Modifié par Bfler, 29 décembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Quirkylilela wrote...

She is as good as Glenda from the wizard of oz. The same Glenda who forced a teenage girl to wear the ruby slippers that a witch was trying to kill her for then sends her off on a journey with the hidden motive of killing her enemy the witch only to finally reveal Dorothy had the means to go home the entire time.

After watching Wicked and Wizard of Oz, I feel like the role of good witch and bad witch is actually the opposite.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Bfler wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 So it's Flemeth's plan. Not Morrigan. It's weird you didn't notice her reluctance to go along with you and Alistair considering Alistair clearly disliked her.   

I am not the best, when it comes to interpretation of peoples intentions, but the thing that  I  noticed when I saw the scene for the first time, where Morrigan has to join your group, is, that her protest is faked. 

You mean she faked this dialogue?
Morrigan, "The stew is bubbling, Mother dear. Shall we have two guests for the eve or none?"
Flemeth,"The Grey Wardens are leaving shortly, girl. And you will be joining them"
Morrigan, "Such a shame… what?"
Flemeth, "You heard me girl. The last time I looked you had ears!" 
Cousland,"If Morrigan doesn't want to come its fine you've already helped us enough"
Flemeth,"Her magic will be useful. Even better she knows the Wilds and how to get past the Horde"
Morrigan,"have I no say in this?"
Flemeth,"You have been itching to get out of the Wilds for years. Here is your chance." 
Flemeth, "As for you Wardens consider this repayment for your lives." 

You have a strong distrust for Morrigan and I won't convince you otherwise. You're free to believe anything you want. But for me, Flemeth didn't give any choice for both you and Morrigan to refuse. And to me, it didn't seem Morrigan was eager and pleased with the choice either.  




 

Bfler wrote... 
The entire time in your group her tongue much sharper during discussions.

Oh! her tongue is much sharper, I can give you that. It's proven that she did not lie that she couldn't interact well with other people. She did claim, society norms annoy her. She is selfish and she believes in power for survival. I couldn't blame her for that tho, since she was raised to "play hide and seek" with the Templars. What else an apostate could do beside surrending themselves to the Templars? Still, it doesn't matter wheter you are playing as Lady Aeducan or Lyna Mahariel or Amber Cousland or Maverick Cousland ( Sorry I'm not fond of playing the role of a slave as potrayed by the city elf ), in the end, it's her sharp tongue who will be there and said, " I will not sit idlely and watch you die!". 

Compared to Leliana,"I will stand with you to whatever end.." Only for you to know in the end, those words are as good as, "Gone like the Warden," She didn't even recognize the warden as her love one.   

[Bfler]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 So it's Flemeth's plan. Not Morrigan. It's weird you didn't notice her reluctance to go along with you and Alistair considering Alistair clearly disliked her.   

I am not the best, when it comes to interpretation of peoples intentions, but the thing that  I  noticed when I saw the scene for the first time, where Morrigan has to join your group, is, that her protest is faked. 

You mean she faked this dialogue?
Morrigan, "The stew is bubbling, Mother dear. Shall we have two guests for the eve or none?"
Flemeth,"The Grey Wardens are leaving shortly, girl. And you will be joining them"
Morrigan, "Such a shame… what?"
Flemeth, "You heard me girl. The last time I looked you had ears!" 
Cousland,"If Morrigan doesn't want to come its fine you've already helped us enough"
Flemeth,"Her magic will be useful. Even better she knows the Wilds and how to get past the Horde"
Morrigan,"have I no say in this?"
Flemeth,"You have been itching to get out of the Wilds for years. Here is your chance." 
Flemeth, "As for you Wardens consider this repayment for your lives." 

You have a strong distrust for Morrigan and I won't convince you otherwise. You're free to believe anything you want. But for me, Flemeth didn't give any choice for both you and Morrigan to refuse. And to me, it didn't seem Morrigan was eager and pleased with the choice either.  


......

Compared to Leliana,"I will stand with you to whatever end.." Only for you to know in the end, those words are as good as, "Gone like the Warden," She didn't even recognize the warden as her love one.   

I don't dislike Morrigan, but the intonation, emphasis of the spoken lines is clearly an indication, that she doesn't mean what she says.


And in the Original DAO Leliana commits suicide, when the Warden dies through the US.
I think, that is the greatest sign of emotional attachment, which is possible. Same like Tali, when her whole species is eliminated.  

And in case you mean with you statement that she doesn't mention the Warden as LI in DA2: That's a bug, caused by some missing flags.

Modifié par Bfler, 29 décembre 2012 - 11:17 .

[Get Magna Carter]

I see them not as good and evil but order and chaos with Flemeth being Order

To me, Flemeth seems like a master manipulator controlling and shaping events towards an undefined agenda
subtle and cunning, she doesn't appear to lie (at least not directly) but is not telling the truth either.
and she has to be as she's (apparently) deceiving and manipulating Morrigan (or does Flemeth just want you to think that...?)

In some ways I would compare them with Fu Manchu and his daughter Fah Loh Suee.
Fu Manchu seems to be a villain but he keeps a strict code of honour and is trying to prevent wars and protect the world from the development of dangerous technology (when he's not trying to remove the communists from power in China).
Fah Lo Suee is frustrated at having such a "great man" as a father and his indefinitely prolonged life means that she will apparently always be in his shadow so she struggles for independence and to establish herself in her own right (which he blocks as he considers her unsuitable to be trusted with power).

Modifié par Get Magna Carter, 29 décembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Androme]

 I don't understand why people are so afraid of the good/evil thing. People seem to consider themselves master artists these days and says they want ''complex'' stories, when asked what this ''complex'' story should be, no reply.

Then again, I doubt we would ever get to see such a thing, because BioWare has already said: ''Dragon Age isn't Dragon Age without a > little < Flemeth'' (Or something along those lines), I'd say the only reason BioWare put her in the game is to have her appear early on in the game to save the player or whatever. Which is a shame, I think the Flemeth/Morrigan story is the most interesting one in the game atm.

[Iakus]

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

No it wasn't. Her entire purpose is whether to brew more stews for the guests or not. It appear to me that she didn't want you and Alistair to stay any longer. She didn't even know she would be sent away by Flemeth. So it's Flemeth's plan. Not Morrigan. It's weird you didn't notice her reluctance to go along with you and Alistair considering Alistair clearly disliked her.   [/quote]

Warden:  How do you even know this will work?
Morrigan:  This is what my mother intended when she sent me with you.  She is the one who first gave me the ritual and told me of what I was meant to do.

[quote]
[quote]iakus wrote...

And being wrong isn't the same thing as lying.  I specifically seperated the two.  Morrigan can very well be telling the truth as she saw it, but is mistaken.  Again I direct you to the end of Witch hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned.  I thought what she craved was immortality.  Yet I was wrong, so very wrong.  She is no blood mage, no abomination.  She is not even truly human"

[/quote]

So you are suggesting Morrigan is mistaken with the Black Grimoire as well? Do you aware there is another Grimoire beside the Black Grimoire? Are you claiming both the Black Grimoire and Flemeth's Grimore + Robe of Possession could be false evidence? [/quote]
[/quote]

I'm suggesting that no one, not even Morrigan really knows what Flemeth is or what she's up to.  Soul-sucking Witch of the WIlds, uncorrupted Old God, Fen'Haral, crazy old woman with powerful shapeshifting abilities, anyhting is possible.  We simply don't know.  Nor do we know what her ultimate goal is.

And yes, it could be false evidence planted by Flemeth, as DA2 showed us she had contingencies planned fin case Morrigan turned on her.  

Modifié par iakus, 29 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[Kidd]

iakus wrote...

Morrigan knew the entire time that killing the archdemon meant a Grey Warden dies.  It was the entire purpose for her joining the group!  Which meant any reluctance she showed at joining up was likely feigned.

Doesn't she mention that she's not ready? As in, she knows what she needs to do right away, but she expected her quest to be in the future - not something she'd be cast out onto with no warning before the fact.

As in, I agree she knew about everything all along and kept information from the group. But she's not faking her reluctance and surprise when Flemeth tells her to leave either.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 29 décembre 2012 - 08:48 .

[The Hierophant]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

She hasn`t done anything evil in the games so far. She seems more...neutral than good or evil.

Raising girls in order to possess their bodies is kind of evil. Other than that, I would have to agree with you. Neutral.

That's only if we take Morrigan's words at face value as we weren't allowed to read the book, and she had a survivng sister who didn't look or sound like she was possessed by Flemeth before Alistair penetrated her.

So you're going to take Flemeth's riddle and vague words at face value? How well do you know Flemeth? Did you spend hours of every nights at camp trying to know her? I screwed Morrigan every nights, enough to know that My Morrigan, despite her selfishness, is more trustworthy than Flemeth.  

Just because Morrigan can play the Warden's flesh flute it doesn't make her more trust worthy than Flemeth as both their intentions for the OGB are equally mysterious. In the end they are both manipulators good or evil be damned.

[Kidd]

The Hierophant wrote...

Just because Morrigan can play the Warden's flesh flute it doesn't make her more trust worthy than Flemeth as both their intentions for the OGB are equally mysterious. In the end they are both manipulators good or evil be damned.

Morrigan does seem to be pretty self-less in Witch Hunt, however. Not saying Flemeth isn't, but selflessness does tend toward goodness in general, although not necessarily. Few people would sacrifice themselves for something they do not consider to be for the greater good, after all. I'm basing this on this exchange:

Warden: And is that what you want? To be free?
Morrigan: What I want is... is unimportant now.

It implies that what she wants and what she is doing are two different things.

[rapscallioness]

I like Morrigan, but I adore Flemeth. Flemeth does not strike me as a control freak. Especially after questioning Merril abt why she was bending her knee to Flemeth when Merril didn't really know who/what she was. Control freaks don't encourage others not to worship them.

I think Morrigan is in over her head w/only a limited understanding of what's really going on...whatever that may be. Which is dangerous. If Morrigan is doing what she thinks is right, but her opinion of what's right is based on limited/faulty info..that could be dangerous.

I don't think either one is "evil". But they're both up to something. I only hope we get some answers, or more info in DA3.

Of course, Morrigan could have been lying abt the whole daughter body stealing thing. Although, in one of Gaider's books, another of Flemeth's daughter's calls Morrigan a "confused child" for believing the body snatching thing. Or for misinterpreting it?

It could go many ways at this point. We'll have to see where they take this story in DA3. If they take it anywhere.

I hope they don't make either one the Muahaha bad guy. Ack. I would like to find out that they're dealing with/fighting? some ...ancient, powerful force that was beyond the understanding..of humans. So far.

[The Hierophant]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Just because Morrigan can play the Warden's flesh flute it doesn't make her more trust worthy than Flemeth as both their intentions for the OGB are equally mysterious. In the end they are both manipulators good or evil be damned.

Morrigan does seem to be pretty self-less in Witch Hunt, however. Not saying Flemeth isn't, but selflessness does tend toward goodness in general, although not necessarily. Few people would sacrifice themselves for something they do not consider to be for the greater good, after all. I'm basing this on this exchange:

Warden: And is that what you want? To be free?
Morrigan: What I want is... is unimportant now.

It implies that what she wants and what she is doing are two different things.

           
I get you, but her motives for the OGB could easily be re written to something like NWO for dramatic effect, and that the language she used during the climax of WH could be explained as conflicting emotions due to her contemplating a future conflict between her, the Warden, and friends. 

The above would be terrible, but seeing how Anders' characterization was altered for the sake of drama i wouldn't be surprised if the above happens.
 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 29 décembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[frankf43]

I don't think either is overly evil.

They both helped the Warden end the blight and Flemeth helped Hawke escape to Krikwall. Flemeth is also held in high esteem by the Dalish so can't be all bad.

[thenemesis1]

Ultimashade wrote...

I agree with what that other guy said.

Morrigan = Freedom and Change
Flemeth = Order and Destiny

This is really where it hits home. You have Flemeth that wants things to play out her way and you have Morrigan that wants to shake things up and IMO, change the world for better. Morrigan talked about how race and class order should be a thing of the past and how people are judged just by how they live...really is somthing that should be changed. People killed just for being a mage or not being what the small few think we should be and a false way of life. Morrigan has it right..she just needs help and with the Warden taken out of the game...her chance of that is small. I have learned one thing in the story for this series is that there are no happy endings and that evil reigns over good. So what ever character you play is in the end a loser and one that will not be useds again for any kind of good but then you have the shills that say there are no evil or good...yea..right.. easy cop out.

[Atlanth]

I doubt that it's as easy as saying that either Morrigan or Flemeth are evil. Each has their own agenda .

Flemeth is guiding events into the direction she wants. I always thought of her as a chess player with Thedas as her board and people like the Warden or Hawke as game-changing pawns. The question we should ask is: who is the chess player on the other side?

And Morrigan is not necessarily Flemeth's enemy. Remember how she said in DA2 that she couldn't have expected Morrigan to act in any other way because she raised her like that? There's some fondness there, at least. I don't doubt that Flemeth would sacrifice Morrigan if it would help her plans, but she is adaptable enough to have backups, just in case.

As for Morrigan...she is just caught on Flemeth's board and as her daughter she can't help but meddle.