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What if Flemeth is the good witch?


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#126
rapscallioness

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Xenomorphine wrote...

Morrigan doesn't abandon anyone at the last moment. She makes it perfectly clear, well ahead of time, that she's leaving. Nor is it done out of cowardice or self-preservation - her actions up until that point completely contradict that speculative reasoning.

Whatever she's doing it for, it's clear it's to do with what she sees as her entire existence. It's to do with the ritual, itself, which she comprehends as being several magnitudes of importance beyond just that battle. Just because your Warden doesn't see it that way doesn't mean Morrigan isn't looking at the bigger picture.

Likewise, for those who didn't allow her the ritual, she's also got valid reasons for leaving, since her purpose is still to do with that greater goal. She recognises the darkspawn will likely be thwarted, but she is very much invested in a future you aren't aware of, not just the present danger you're facing.

In many ways, while it isn't a matter of assisting you in person (that you're aware of - this is Morrigan and she could very easily be sending mystical assistance from afar), her actions are very much selfless, at that point. Remember, she says that what she wants is no longer important. That she's putting aside her personal desires for the sake of something far larger.

If Morrigan's only interest was in saving her own life, she would have deserted long before then. Those who think otherwise should remember that her ritual is also calculated to try and save your character's life.

Unfortunately, the one scene which would have added some clarified depth to her motivations was removed from the final product, but the restored version goes some way to show that she considers the matter out of her hands, even if she's the one who is responsible for it.



Morrigan is all about self-preservation. Her own survival. I don't think she was scared, tho. I think she just didn't give a damn. She wanted this OGB--for reasons we are not privy to in any way, or shape. When she didn't get that, she left. We have no idea if it was for some benevolent reason,or not.

Her actions up until that point show a character that really doesn't care abt others. She is rather ruthless. Like w/her encouraging you to keep the Anvil and use it for yourself.

You have no idea what the bigger pic is, or for that matter if Morrigan is looking at the bigger pic.

I don't think Morrigan would have deserted before then because she was waiting to approach the Warden abt the DR.  And I have no info that tells me that she wants to do this DR simply to try and save the Warden's life.

Saying for all we know--she could be sending mystical from afar--is speculative in the extreme. For all we know..maybe she wasn't.

What we know is that she left right before the final battle if you did not do the DR.

Removed material from the final product doesn't count.

Honestly, I luv her ruthless nature. But she is ruthless and only cares abt herself. That's how she comes across when you only befriend her. Idk what the romance was like.

I wouldn't change her for anything, but don't paint her as all sweetness and light and self sacrificing.  And we simply do not have enuf info to accurately judge what it is she is doing vs. what it is she wants vs what it is she feels she has to do.

#127
Bfler

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Xenomorphine wrote...

Unfortunately, the one scene which would have added some clarified depth to her motivations was removed from the final product, but the restored version goes some way to show that she considers the matter out of her hands, even if she's the one who is responsible for it.




A quote from the mod-page on Nexus:

It was difficult because there was no dialog files with such sentences, so I had to pick up words across all the sound files and mix them together to make new sentences. The result may not be perfect but I was satisfied enough to share it.


There was nothing removed. The author simply rearranged existing voice lines and created a new scene.

Modifié par Bfler, 30 décembre 2012 - 07:53 .


#128
Emzamination

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Saibh wrote...

When you raise a little girl and kill her and take over her body, then she is evil.

Flemeth might not be out to destroy the world, but she's definitely not a "good" person. She's been killing her daughters for millenia. She was also pretty emotional neglectful and abusive as a mother, as far as we know. I know we meet Morrigan as a callous adult, but she was once a little girl with feelings. You wouldn't think good things of a mother who did the type of things Flemeth did to Morrigan.


We don't even know if flemeth is actually doing that. All we have to go on is what morrigan told us flemeth was doing. During the flemeth confrontation in origins, the warden has the option to say "Morrigan knows how you extend your life", to which flemeth will respond "That she does, but do you?".

Personally my own theory is that morrigan and flemeth are the same person/being, just older & younger versions.

#129
rapscallioness

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Emzamination wrote...

Saibh wrote...

When you raise a little girl and kill her and take over her body, then she is evil.

Flemeth might not be out to destroy the world, but she's definitely not a "good" person. She's been killing her daughters for millenia. She was also pretty emotional neglectful and abusive as a mother, as far as we know. I know we meet Morrigan as a callous adult, but she was once a little girl with feelings. You wouldn't think good things of a mother who did the type of things Flemeth did to Morrigan.


We don't even know if flemeth is actually doing that. All we have to go on is what morrigan told us flemeth was doing. During the flemeth confrontation in origins, the warden has the option to say "Morrigan knows how you extend your life", to which flemeth will respond "That she does, but do you?".

Personally my own theory is that morrigan and flemeth are the same person/being, just older & younger versions.


That's an interesting idea. There were some points in DA2 that at first made me wonder if that version of Flemeth was actually Morrigan. The "Well, well what have we here?" I thought that was Morrigan at first.

And considering Flemeth's talk abt being in more than one place at one time.....but then at the same time Flemeth goes on to discuss Morrigan in a very --separate being--mother/daughter way.

There are alot of things I would like to see answered abt these two. But I don't want to get my hopes up that they will expand upon this story arc.

But as far as the OP, again, I don't think either one is necessarily the bad or good one. I would be disappointed at that, meself.

#130
Dragoonlordz

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She is the OGB who came back from the future which the world is in ruins and on the brink of total annihilation to alter the past and change what is to come later so that the world does not get destroyed. Changing the past to create heros for the future to save the world.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:12 .


#131
Get Magna Carter

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Bfler wrote...

Xenomorphine wrote...

Unfortunately, the one scene which would have added some clarified depth to her motivations was removed from the final product, but the restored version goes some way to show that she considers the matter out of her hands, even if she's the one who is responsible for it.



A quote from the mod-page on Nexus:

It was difficult because there was no dialog files with such sentences, so I had to pick up words across all the sound files and mix them together to make new sentences. The result may not be perfect but I was satisfied enough to share it.

There was nothing removed. The author simply rearranged existing voice lines and created a new scene.

David Gaider's coment when talking about a comic version of the scene
" I mentioned a cutscene we had considered doing prior to Morrigan’s offer in the climax (*spoiler alert*[/b] for anyone who hasn’t played that far in Origins) but which had been left on the cutting room floor along with so many other scenes. This one in particular was hard to cut, because it was supposed to give some context to the player who romances Morrigan or who had become really good friends with her that what she was about to do was causing her conflict. As is pretty typical for game development, however, you have to work with the resources at hand… "
You'll find it and the 8-page comic strip (as I mentioned earlier) on Bioware Blog March, 2010
http://blog.bioware....velation-comic/

#132
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I would like it if both Morrigan and Flemeth were "good" in the sense that they both wanted to stop the world from plunging into chaos or destruction, but have different methods/goals for doing so.

#133
Babaganoosh013

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She can't be all that bad. She was married to Columbo, and stopped Donald Pleasence from getting away with murder, TWICE!

Posted Image

#134
Emzamination

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rapscallioness wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Saibh wrote...

When you raise a little girl and kill her and take over her body, then she is evil.

Flemeth might not be out to destroy the world, but she's definitely not a "good" person. She's been killing her daughters for millenia. She was also pretty emotional neglectful and abusive as a mother, as far as we know. I know we meet Morrigan as a callous adult, but she was once a little girl with feelings. You wouldn't think good things of a mother who did the type of things Flemeth did to Morrigan.


We don't even know if flemeth is actually doing that. All we have to go on is what morrigan told us flemeth was doing. During the flemeth confrontation in origins, the warden has the option to say "Morrigan knows how you extend your life", to which flemeth will respond "That she does, but do you?".

Personally my own theory is that morrigan and flemeth are the same person/being, just older & younger versions.


That's an interesting idea. There were some points in DA2 that at first made me wonder if that version of Flemeth was actually Morrigan. The "Well, well what have we here?" I thought that was Morrigan at first.

And considering Flemeth's talk abt being in more than one place at one time.....but then at the same time Flemeth goes on to discuss Morrigan in a very --separate being--mother/daughter way.

There are alot of things I would like to see answered abt these two. But I don't want to get my hopes up that they will expand upon this story arc.

But as far as the OP, again, I don't think either one is necessarily the bad or good one. I would be disappointed at that, meself.


For me, the first Inkling was in origins when Flemeth remarks on morrigan looking exactly as she did when she was younger.

Next was morrigan stating that she has a vague memory of flemeth being young with hair like her own.

Next was morrigan stating that flemeth just laughed at her when she asked her was she born naturally. It could be anything on its own, but now that we've learned in Da2 that flemeth can pull seperate versions of herself from the original, it warrants suspicion.

Also there are strong similarities to morrigan and 'the morrigan' irish goddess who happens to be both a hag and a young woman.

Here is an interesting Excerpt

"Cúchulainn defends Ulster by fighting a series of single combats at fords against Medb's champions. In between combats the Morrígan appears to him as a young woman and offers him her love, and her aid in the battle, but he rejects her offer. In response she intervenes in his next combat, first in the form of an eel who trips him, then as a wolf who stampedes cattle across the ford, and finally as a white, red-eared heifer leading the stampede, just as she had warned in their previous encounter. However Cúchulainn wounds her in each form and defeats his opponent despite her interference. Later she appears to him as an old woman bearing the same three wounds that her animal forms sustained, milking a cow"

A animal shape shifter who is rejected when she offers her lover aid in his final battle, wonder who that could be :whistle:

#135
Huntress

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Dasher1010 wrote...

What if Morrigan is really the evil one and Flemeth is actually trying to save the world from her? Would anyone else expect that?


You need to learn more about Flemeth, Morrigan and Yavana..
I don't think the definition  of "good" for them is the same as to you.

#136
deuce985

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I would prefer to think neither character is as simple as evil or good. Nothing black and white. Grey is the best characters you can write, IMO. Loghain was a great grey character in DAO.

#137
thats1evildude

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If Flemeth is a good witch, then she's doing a pretty ****** poor job of showing it.

#138
deuce985

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thats1evildude wrote...

If Flemeth is a good witch, then she's doing a pretty ****** poor job of showing it.


She did save our Warden and Hawke...<3

Probably for her own self-gain but still nice of her to do so.

Modifié par deuce985, 31 décembre 2012 - 09:00 .


#139
thats1evildude

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deuce985 wrote...

She did save our Warden and Hawke...<3


For her own purposes. Never forget that.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 31 décembre 2012 - 09:08 .


#140
Cutlass Jack

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thats1evildude wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

She did save our Warden and Hawke...<3


For her own purposes. Never forget that.


And how is that different from Morrigan exactly? Posted Image

#141
thats1evildude

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

And how is that different from Morrigan exactly? Posted Image


It isn't, though I would note that Morrigan is at least capable of helping someone without expecting anything in return, like when she advocated for Jowan's release from his cell.

Flemeth does not give aid freely, and it always comes with some kind of deception. I don't believe that she is capricious or cruel, but she is not to be trusted.

#142
Guest_krul2k_*

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#143
Xenomorphine

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Yeah, the audible lines might have been rearranged, but it's from a scene which was cut from development. As it stands, while it isn't the final product, it does give us an insight into what motivations the writers considered canonical for Morrigan.

rapscallioness wrote...

Morrigan is all about self-preservation. Her own survival. I don't think she was scared, tho. I think she just didn't give a damn. She wanted this OGB--for reasons we are not privy to in any way, or shape. When she didn't get that, she left. We have no idea if it was for some benevolent reason,or not.

Her actions up until that point show a character that really doesn't care abt others. She is rather ruthless. Like w/her encouraging you to keep the Anvil and use it for yourself.

You have no idea what the bigger pic is, or for that matter if Morrigan is looking at the bigger pic.

I don't think Morrigan would have deserted before then because she was waiting to approach the Warden abt the DR.  And I have no info that tells me that she wants to do this DR simply to try and save the Warden's life.

Saying for all we know--she could be sending mystical from afar--is speculative in the extreme. For all we know..maybe she wasn't.

What we know is that she left right before the final battle if you did not do the DR.

Removed material from the final product doesn't count.

Honestly, I luv her ruthless nature. But she is ruthless and only cares abt herself. That's how she comes across when you only befriend her. Idk what the romance was like.

I wouldn't change her for anything, but don't paint her as all sweetness and light and self sacrificing.  And we simply do not have enuf info to accurately judge what it is she is doing vs. what it is she wants vs what it is she feels she has to do.


You're confusing ruthlessness with selfishness. Morrigan makes it clear that she prioritises herself above all others, but is very honest about the reasons why. That's simply her upbringing. She isn't being deceptive. She lays things out and says this is the way things are and respects your character's right to choose as you see fit. Likewise, she won't necessarily approve of your decisions, but, again, is honest about why.

Nobody's saying Morrigan is selfless. I was just pointing out that there's very little about her actions which, seen through a prism of pragmatism-at-all-costs, isn't at least marginally understandable. The journey her character goes through, in the events of the story (assuming your character treated her relatively well and gave her some character-specific gifts), is to learn compassion, which was clearly eroded away at a very early age, to the extent where she actively avoided it, seeing it only as a weakness just leads distraction.

Nevertheless, she is also very clear that, "What I want... Is unimportant." She doesn't ditch you because of self-preservation. Nor is it a sudden hissy-fit. She makes it clear that what she asks is of paramount importance and it becomes very obvious that she considers it incredibly important - world-changing, even.

The only time she really speaks of personal desires is in regards to wanting to experience life outside of her home environment. She's ruthless, absolutely - but so can every character be. Lelliana is ruthless about not letting you taint the ashes, for instance. When it's something a character considers oif absolute importance, above and beyond themselves, that's how they react.

The ritual just happens to be Morrigan's trigger, that's all. Except that, instead of seeing it as something to kill you over, she simply departs - exactly as she told you she would.

Moreover, keep in mind that her mission was not to face the archdemon. She actually makes this clear early on, through a specific dialogue exchange (I think when the Redcliffe castle child possession is being discussed), that she is there solely to assist to a very specific extent and that things like teaching her mother's abilities may be considered a part of that jurisdiciton, but only if she personally deams it so. And she's quite right... Your character's getting on perfectly well without those massively advanced skills - which Morrigan, justifiably, could suspect might be used against her. She doesn't give others an advantage over herself if she can help it, not because she's 'evil', but simply because it's been repeatedly rammed home into her, from an early age, as a lesson. She even openly calls herself foolish for the honest mistake of simply not realising Flemeth wanted to possess her! Anyone else would simply say they couldn't see it coming, but Morrigan castigates herself for this quite harshly... To me, that speaks a lot as to her personality, since it emphasises how most of her annoyance with others is because she does treat most people as she'd treat herself... She can't imagine herself labouring under the templars and chantry and, thus, perceives the Circle as unworthy of assistance. Your character points out to her that she could've been in the same situation? She just says she'd commit suicide!

So, in my view, a lot of that animosity is there because she doesn't have much in the way of empathy. She can't understand why someone's let themselves endure certain things, so, she dismisses them as not being worth her time - or only worth her time as a source of passing amusement. It isn't spite for spite's sake. It's just Morrigan not comprehending the world in the same way others do (which is heavily reflected in some of her DLC's dialogue responses).

Again, if her reasons for leaving were purely about cowardice and fear of dying, she would have left earlier. she had countless opportunities to do so, but didn't. It's all about the ritual and she's very honest about it being to do with something beyond just her personal desires.

That it happens to coincide with staying alive isn't something she should be faulted for.

Maybe the third game will prove me wrong and she'll be retconned into a pantomime villain, mwah-hah-hah-ing as she eats her own child's heart and extends her life a thousand years and sets fire to all and sundry. But if those were her intentions, she'd have likely gone down the route of dealing with demons, heavy use of blood magic and living in the Tervinter Imperium. That's what everyone else with that mentality seems to do and there's nothing stopping her.

But personally, given what we've seen of her actions, I suspect things are a lot more complex than that. If this is where Bioware decides to go, it would hugely devalue the character into a superficial cartoon of why she did what she did. Morrigan's more the type to understand that ruling the world is more trouble than it's worth, even if she could do (and happens to feel that if a tyranny was overthrown, judging by her comments on the dwarven mission, it would be a largely good thing). She may be fully signed up to the survival-of-the-fittest philosophy, but that doesn't mean she's vindictive to the exclusion of common sense.

Using the anvil? Pragmatism. Just with an absence of compassion. One of my own wardens chose that, too, simply because they saw the blight as something world-ending, against which any advantage needed to be taken. It may not be a philosophy everyone agrees with (and most of my others didn't; but even then, it was more about engaging loyalties than altruistic reasons), but that doesn't make it selfish or evil.

Same applies to Morrigan's (and Shale's) approval of wanting to contaminate the ashes. It's not because they care one way or another. It's because they think indulging fanciful legends over a practical advantage against dawkspwawn, here and now, is a stupid idea.

Modifié par Xenomorphine, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:16 .