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[Outsider edge]

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity. If the endings would have been changed it would violate the vision the creators had for it therefor their artistic integrity was at stake.

I'd like too make a comparison with Hollywood in this regard due too the fact that one of the biggest examples of a commercial writer is a scenariowriter for movies. The big studios all aim too get boxoffice hits in. Winning an Oscar is nice and all but bypassing the 1 billion dollar cliff is much more important for the studios. However the big studios have many projects running every year so they can bet on two horses both the critical aclaim as the big piles of doh. EA/Bioware can be compaired too such a big moviestudio with the difference that they don't have multiple projects launching every year. They also want too sell millions of copies and have a big commercial hit.

A scenariowriter for movies is a commercial writer. With this i mean for example that when a focusgroup judging a movie and canning it because of a bad story or ending the studios in general order reshoots and rewrites. This all for the simple reason too get the biggest general appeal for the movie as possible. If a scenariowriter get's cheeky and starts proclaiming his artistic integrity the studio honchos just laugh take him off the project and fly in a replacement. Artisitic integrity and commercial writing don't fit well.

Eventhough they might see themselves as artists the writers at Bioware are commercial writers in the end. Their job is too help create a product that has the biggest mass appeal so it can shift millions of copies too the customers.
Therefor one can conclude that if a substantial ammount of possible customers want a happy fluffy ending they should have provided that. Even when being disgruntled in adding it it's too no avail when the end result being is shifting an additional 50k or 100k units. It's their job too create mass appeal.

Artisitic integrity in movies is more aimed at the independant scene. There a writer or director can set his/her foot in the sand and say this is my vision and i'm not changing a damn thing. Those movies also have a far smaller budget and can be compaired with the indie scene in videogames.

In short the creators of a game like Dear Esther can proclaim artistic integrity while the people at Bioware don't have that luxery anymore.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 28 décembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[David7204]

That's rather obvious. Nobody is claiming that BioWare can or will get away with continually making screw-ups like the ending wiithout consequences.

It certainly wasn't without consequeces this time, was it?

Modifié par David7204, 28 décembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

[David7204]

That's true. Along with "too-videogamey." I think that phrase was used literally once in the art book.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

Indeed. It's sad.

[Outsider edge]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

Not really it was heavily put forward in Ray Mayzuka's blog. Go read it if it's still somewhere on this site. Artistic integrity and 75+ perfect scores was about the main content of that blog.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Outsider edge wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

Not really it was heavily put forward in Ray Mayzuka's blog. Go read it if it's still somewhere on this site. Artistic integrity and 75+ perfect scores was about the main content of that blog.

No... Stop making things up. 

[Outsider edge]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

Not really it was heavily put forward in Ray Mayzuka's blog. Go read it if it's still somewhere on this site. Artistic integrity and 75+ perfect scores was about the main content of that blog.

No... Stop making things up. 

I'm not making anything up. I do get the feeling none of you were present when the whole ending debacle played out 9 months ago. When the fires started burning first Casey made a blog too try calming the masses down. When that didn't work Ray Mazuyka himself made a statement which defended the artisitic integrity (his own words) of the creators of Mass Effect 3 and pointed heavily at the 75+ perfect scores the game had gotten thusfar.

[KiwiQuiche]

They mentioned the 'too video-gamy' thing in the Final Hours app; http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Artistic Integrity thing came from one of the co-founders of Bioware "The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.";
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

So no, not a myth. :I

[KiwiQuiche]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

Not really it was heavily put forward in Ray Mayzuka's blog. Go read it if it's still somewhere on this site. Artistic integrity and 75+ perfect scores was about the main content of that blog.

No... Stop making things up. 

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/



Says it right there.

[Xariann]

This is what I found: http://clancop.wordp...-pleasing-fans/

“We are all incredibly proud of Mass Effect 3 and the work done by Casey Hudson and team,” said Dr. Ray Muzyka, Co-Founder of BioWare and General Manager of EA’s BioWare Label. “Since launch, we have had time to listen to the feedback from our most passionate fans and we are responding. With the Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut we think we have struck a good balance in delivering the answers players are looking for while maintaining the team’s artistic vision for the end of this story arc in the Mass Effect universe.”

[Dean_the_Young]

Outsider edge wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

One of the main defenses put up by Bioware concerning the Mass Effect 3 endings was the word artistic integrity.

*Citation needed.

Seriously, this is one of the most annoying self-propogating myths of the entire ending debacle.

Not really it was heavily put forward in Ray Mayzuka's blog. Go read it if it's still somewhere on this site. Artistic integrity and 75+ perfect scores was about the main content of that blog.

No... Stop making things up. 

I'm not making anything up. I do get the feeling none of you were present when the whole ending debacle played out 9 months ago. When the fires started burning first Casey made a blog too try calming the masses down. When that didn't work Ray Mazuyka himself made a statement which defended the artisitic integrity (his own words) of the creators of Mass Effect 3 and pointed heavily at the 75+ perfect scores the game had gotten thusfar.

I was here. I can tell you that you're misremembering.

'Artistic integrity' wasn't one of the 'main defenses' put up by Bioware, it was a cherry-picked quote taken out of the limited context that was thrown around by the anti-enders as a meme used in lieu of wit as a sarcastic false-defense of anything that anyone criticized. 'Artistic integrity' became a meme of the forum's own creation, stretched and manipulated primarily by the people attacking, not defending, the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They mentioned the 'too video-gamy' thing in the Final Hours app; http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Artistic Integrity thing came from one of the co-founders of Bioware "The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.";
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

So no, not a myth. :I

Which part: that the words 'artistic integrity' were said, or that they were a 'main defense' of the game as was?

Unsurprisingly, even the sentence itself doesn't use the term as a cover-all shield. It isn't even used as a defense of the endings!

[Ultranovae]

No, just simply no.
Commercial writing was what gave us the abomination that was the ending to "I am Legend" because the original ending didn't test well with audiences.
If fans always got their way every time, we wouldn't have masterpieces like The Windwaker, Resident Evil 4, or anything by Suda51.
Instead we would just have the hackneyed writing of a generic shooter. While not excellent, the endings are great, specially because they are different than what people wanted.

[Dean_the_Young]

wiggles89 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's true. Along with "too-videogamey." I think that phrase was used literally once in the art book.

Casey Hudson used it in that "Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" thing.

Indeed. You remember what else was in the sentence? Or the context?

'Too-videogamey' was used in the context of explaining why TIM wasn't turned into a Reaper-monster for a boss-fight on the Citadel after the beam. The team didn't feel that turning TIM away from a dialogue villain into a fugly combat boss monster was appropriate, and that the main reason to have such a boss fight would have been for the boss fight's own sake rather than for the story or character.

[Xellith]

"To Mass Effect 3 players, from Dr. Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare

As co-founder and GM of BioWare, I’m very proud of the ME3 team; I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the best work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their expectations. Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.

Mass Effect 3 concludes a trilogy with so much player control and ownership of the story that it was hard for us to predict the range of emotions players would feel when they finished playing through it. The journey you undertake in Mass Effect provokes an intense range of highly personal emotions in the player; even so, the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us. This is an issue we care about deeply, and we will respond to it in a fair and timely way. We’re already working hard to do that.

To that end, since the game launched, the team has been poring over everything they can find about reactions to the game – industry press, forums, Facebook, and Twitter, just to name a few. The Mass Effect team, like other teams across the BioWare Label within EA, consists of passionate people who work hard for the love of creating experiences that excite and delight our fans. I’m honored to work with them because they have the courage and strength to respond to constructive feedback.

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.

The reaction to the release of Mass Effect 3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better.

Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to destructive commentary.

If you are a Mass Effect fan and have input for the team – we respect your opinion and want to hear it. We’re committed to address your constructive feedback as best we can. In return, I’d ask that you help us do that by supporting what I truly believe is the best game BioWare has yet crafted. I urge you to do your own research: play the game, finish it and tell us what you think. Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole. Trust that we are doing our damndest, as always, to address your feedback. As artists, we care about our fans deeply and we appreciate your support.

Thank you for your feedback – we are listening.

Ray "

(just posting this in case people are too lazy to click the links above and/or lazy)

Modifié par Xellith, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Ultranovae wrote...

No, just simply no.
Commercial writing was what gave us the abomination that was the ending to "I am Legend" because the original ending didn't test well with audiences.
If fans always got their way every time, we wouldn't have masterpieces like The Windwaker, Resident Evil 4, or anything by Suda51.
Instead we would just have the hackneyed writing of a generic shooter. While not excellent, the endings are great, specially because they are different than what people wanted.

Couldn't have said it better myself. An artist should always strive to surprise its audience. Predictability is boring.

[Outsider edge]

Ultranovae wrote...

No, just simply no.
Commercial writing was what gave us the abomination that was the ending to "I am Legend" because the original ending didn't test well with audiences.
If fans always got their way every time, we wouldn't have masterpieces like The Windwaker, Resident Evil 4, or anything by Suda51.
Instead we would just have the hackneyed writing of a generic shooter. While not excellent, the endings are great, specially because they are different than what people wanted.

Hmm if you create something different than what people wanted those same people wouldn't have bought it in the first place. The "I am Legend" ordeal was an example of changing it for the worse after focus testing. You can also change it for the better especially with media like videogames and RPG's in particular since you can have multiple endings. Heck some movies use dvd/blueray special editions too add multiple endings too the main movie.

EA/Bioware wants too shift units and for that too happen they can't gamble on artsy endings that are "different". That's gambling with profits they really need just so they can get the big budget for the next project greenlit by EA.

[Xellith]

Ultranovae wrote...

No, just simply no.
Commercial writing was what gave us the abomination that was the ending to "I am Legend" because the original ending didn't test well with audiences.

Which one was the original ending?  Because the ending that came on my disc was the one where he cooked a few nades and then went kaboom.  I saw the "alternate" ending with the stupid ass butterfly on the glass crap on youtube.

[someguy1231]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's true. Along with "too-videogamey." I think that phrase was used literally once in the art book.

Casey Hudson used it in that "Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" thing.

Indeed. You remember what else was in the sentence? Or the context?

'Too-videogamey' was used in the context of explaining why TIM wasn't turned into a Reaper-monster for a boss-fight on the Citadel after the beam. The team didn't feel that turning TIM away from a dialogue villain into a fugly combat boss monster was appropriate, and that the main reason to have such a boss fight would have been for the boss fight's own sake rather than for the story or character.

Well then, it's a good thing Bioware gave us a boss fight that fit the story much better, right? That final fight with Harbinger we had was incredible!

Oh, wait, that never happened...<_<

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the "video-gamey" quote is utterly absurd and nonsensical. Would anyone ever remove something from a film because it's "too cinematic"? Besides, they're complete hypocrites for saying something like that, and yet forcing Kai Leng onto us not once, but twice throughout the game and blatantly giving him plot-breaking powers in order to annoy Shepard and be a cheap source of drama. Bioware merely deprived us a final confrontation with the main antagonist (Harbinger, not TIM and definitely not the Catalyst) in a pathetic and misguided attempt at "art".

To reply to David7204: As others have pointed out, the quote came from the "Final Hours" app, not the art book. And it doesn't matter if they said "video-gamey" only once. Whenever any public figure says something stupid or absurd, they get hounded to hell for it (and deservedly so), even if they do it only once.

[Clayless]

Xellith wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

No, just simply no.
Commercial writing was what gave us the abomination that was the ending to "I am Legend" because the original ending didn't test well with audiences.

Which one was the original ending?  Because the ending that came on my disc was the one where he cooked a few nades and then went kaboom.  I saw the "alternate" ending with the stupid ass butterfly on the glass crap on youtube.

Wow cooking a few grenades to kill a monster. Because a completely different ending from the book, that makes the title of the film pointless, and brings nothing interesting or intelligent to the table, is somehow better than the original surprising and thought provoking ending.

[someguy1231]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

No, just simply no.
Commercial writing was what gave us the abomination that was the ending to "I am Legend" because the original ending didn't test well with audiences.
If fans always got their way every time, we wouldn't have masterpieces like The Windwaker, Resident Evil 4, or anything by Suda51.
Instead we would just have the hackneyed writing of a generic shooter. While not excellent, the endings are great, specially because they are different than what people wanted.

Couldn't have said it better myself. An artist should always strive to surprise its audience. Predictability is boring.

"Surprising your audience" is a double-edged sword. Sometimes it makes a work better, sometimes it makes it worse. An ending that surprises you isn't automatically better than one that doesn't. If you ordered a pizza but got a newspaper instead, would you want to order pizza from that place again? And I'll take well-written predictability over surprising but nonsensical writing anyday.

Modifié par someguy1231, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Andromidius]

You all realise that if the endings went over your head and you didn't understand them, Bioware still have the right to be proud of their own art, right? Dumbing it down so people understand it would ruin it.

People just refuse to admit it, say its bad and then congratulate themselves for it. Criticising the literal ending isn't hard - because its designed to be criticised and analysed and then rejected. And then you need to realise what the ending actually ment.

[Xellith]

Far as I see it he died to get the cure out. Not to "kill a monster". I felt the whole "butterfly on the glass" was a bit silly tbh.  Im sure they could have executed it a lot better.  Also when was the last time that films were exactly as they are in books?  You go into watching films more or less expecting there to be large chunks of it rewriten or cut.

Modifié par Xellith, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:42 .