Aller au contenu

Photo

Artistic integrity and commercial writing.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
235 réponses à ce sujet

#226
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Alright, I'm going to finally enter this after avoiding this thread...

*awesome wall of text*


You should really look into the Indoctrination Theory, Julia. I hate that this makes me sound preachy and such, annd there are a lot of misunderstandings about what it actually is, but with an understanding of story, themes, and all the rest that you clearly show here, you should give it a chance.


I've looked at IT. I've considered it from several angles. Not just from Shepard being indoctrinated, but from the player getting indoctrinated. I actually like the indoctrination angle. This game has spawned more theories than the Kennedy assassination.:? I have fallen more into the Puzzle Theory camp, and I'm hanging on there by a thread.

#227
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Alright, I'm going to finally enter this after avoiding this thread...

*awesome wall of text*


You should really look into the Indoctrination Theory, Julia. I hate that this makes me sound preachy and such, annd there are a lot of misunderstandings about what it actually is, but with an understanding of story, themes, and all the rest that you clearly show here, you should give it a chance.


I've looked at IT. I've considered it from several angles. Not just from Shepard being indoctrinated, but from the player getting indoctrinated. I actually like the indoctrination angle. This game has spawned more theories than the Kennedy assassination.:? I have fallen more into the Puzzle Theory camp, and I'm hanging on there by a thread.


Fair enough, PT is closely related anyway Posted Image

Remember that the biggest barrier people have to get through with IT is to believe that Bioware could write and pull off such a thing. People get stuck thinking that because (it seems) Bioware are bad writers, liars (etc) they couldn't possibly create IT, when in fact if they did, then there's actually no bad writing and all that.

It's a bit of circular logic.

#228
Ninja Stan

Ninja Stan
  • Members
  • 5 238 messages
Great post, sH0tgUn jUliA. Thank you.

#229
dorktainian

dorktainian
  • Members
  • 4 426 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Alright, I'm going to finally enter this after avoiding this thread...

*awesome wall of text*


You should really look into the Indoctrination Theory, Julia. I hate that this makes me sound preachy and such, annd there are a lot of misunderstandings about what it actually is, but with an understanding of story, themes, and all the rest that you clearly show here, you should give it a chance.


I've looked at IT. I've considered it from several angles. Not just from Shepard being indoctrinated, but from the player getting indoctrinated. I actually like the indoctrination angle. This game has spawned more theories than the Kennedy assassination.:? I have fallen more into the Puzzle Theory camp, and I'm hanging on there by a thread.

yep.  i like the idea that ME3 is an exercise in player indoctrination.

#230
liggy002

liggy002
  • Members
  • 5 337 messages

someguy1231 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's true. Along with "too-videogamey." I think that phrase was used literally once in the art book.

Casey Hudson used it in that "Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" thing.

Indeed. You remember what else was in the sentence? Or the context?

'Too-videogamey' was used in the context of explaining why TIM wasn't turned into a Reaper-monster for a boss-fight on the Citadel after the beam. The team didn't feel that turning TIM away from a dialogue villain into a fugly combat boss monster was appropriate, and that the main reason to have such a boss fight would have been for the boss fight's own sake rather than for the story or character.


Well then, it's a good thing Bioware gave us a boss fight that fit the story much better, right? That final fight with Harbinger we had was incredible!

Oh, wait, that never happened...<_<

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the "video-gamey" quote is utterly absurd and nonsensical. Would anyone ever remove something from a film because it's "too cinematic"? Besides, they're complete hypocrites for saying something like that, and yet forcing Kai Leng onto us not once, but twice throughout the game and blatantly giving him plot-breaking powers in order to annoy Shepard and be a cheap source of drama. Bioware merely deprived us a final confrontation with the main antagonist (Harbinger, not TIM and definitely not the Catalyst) in a pathetic and misguided attempt at "art".

To reply to David7204: As others have pointed out, the quote came from the "Final Hours" app, not the art book. And it doesn't matter if they said "video-gamey" only once. Whenever any public figure says something stupid or absurd, they get hounded to hell for it (and deservedly so), even if they do it only once.


Pretty much this.  As he said, and I will reiterate this, the Kai Leng confrontations are also forced and contrived and "too videogamey" if you will.  I'm sorry but this is a video game.  I expect "video gamey" content when I play a video game.  Hypocrisy 101 to have the Kai Leng fights but not Harbinger fights.

#231
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages
@liggy

Also, Kai Leng is supposed to be over the top and think he's as good as Commander Shepard. He thinks of himself as Shepard's ultimate nemesis, when really he's just an evil Conrad Verner. He's actually done perfectly.

#232
Dr_Extrem

Dr_Extrem
  • Members
  • 4 092 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

a lot of good things


this woman is now officially awsome.

#233
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

liggy002 wrote...

Pretty much this.  As he said, and I will reiterate this, the Kai Leng confrontations are also forced and contrived and "too videogamey" if you will.  I'm sorry but this is a video game.  I expect "video gamey" content when I play a video game.  Hypocrisy 101 to have the Kai Leng fights but not Harbinger fights.

Hypocrisy doesn't mean what it appears you think it means.

#234
Ithurael

Ithurael
  • Members
  • 3 192 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

*Pure Awesomesauce*


15/10

I cannot usually articulate my points in an eloquent and decisive manner like you just have. You stated it very well and I applaude your effort! That was a great read, I hope bioware sees it.

#235
geceka

geceka
  • Members
  • 208 messages
I always wonder how much conversation about the stories of their games Bioware actually should have with the fans.

Consider this: ME is very much a framework for your own imagination in a meaningful way. There's all this lore (also backed up via an extensive codex, which probably only few actually read – If there was anything a purely profit-oriented designer should cut, it's probably this), there's the story and the character developments that leave many details open, more like a skeleton for you to flesh out: People discuss an abundance of implications about the endings, but there's also been lots of discussion about off-screen character traits in the now-defunct romance forums etc… I wouldn't want all of this to go away by the developers randomly adding "canon" information whenever somebody asks for it.

With the "artistic integrity" comment, Bioware only solidified that they want to stay true to this core framework they have created, but leaving it open for (and actually encouraging) you to fill in the gaps. "The best stories don't end on the last page". They didn't force a certain interpretation of anything onto you, so no, neither the "artistic integrity" comment, nor the EC was a "conversation-ender". They never denied or canon-ized IT, as an example. If anything, Bioware knows very well that the "commercial" aspect of their writing, if you want to call it that, is to craft stories where the player can fit in, rather than just telling a story, and I think they did that very well with ME1-3.

However, that doesn't mean that everything they did with ME3 is perfect: They had a direction of where things should be going, and I am fine with that (or actually, I expect them to have this direction, rather than having the story drift entirely apart due to player choices/preferences), and even within that framework, some things could have been handled better a lot.

  • ME3 is, to my mind, much too epic for its own good. Shepard pretty much fixes all the major, centuries-lasting conflicts in the game universe within just a couple of in-game days. I would have found it more believable and respectful to the lore if the actions on Tuchanka and Rannoch only lead to a glimpse of hope, a "first step" to ending the genophage and the Geth/Quarian war, rather than outright "solving" them. It sort of devalues the gravity of these conflicts, which have been lasting for centuries, no less. If I was cynical and picked up on the "commercial writing" topic of this thread, I'd be inclined to call them "fan-service" ;-)
  • ME3 was the one story in which the Reapers should shine, this awesome machine race that has been around for billions of years (*gasp*, I mean, isn't that timeframe alone awe-inspiring), shaping pretty much everything you know about the in-game galaxy. Yet within the game, it felt as if the Reapers pulled off all their great feats while Shepard wasn't there. I know it's controversial, but at least the endings captured that awe again (for me): I thought it felt very inspiring for the reign of the Reapers, which lasted billions of years, to be ended once and for all by Shepard, right there above London. I would have preferred that feeling to be present the entire game, not just in the last few minutes.
  • I hated how the game tutorial coincided directly with the Reapers invading Earth: I mean, just while the Reapers are touching down on Earth, this moment that ME1-2 have been building up to, which should be one of the most incredible moments in ME, I need to be told how to jump across gaps and climb up ladders? It was one of the scenes that ME fans have been waiting for, and intermingling this with the game mechanics tutorial greatly cheapens it and pulls you out of the situation entirely.
  • The battle in London was just a shadow of what it should have been: The cutscene preceding it showed how it could have been done, with Sword fleet cutting through the relay and showing all the different fleets attacking the Reapers (which genuinely appeared to be startled a bit, I felt, which just added to the gravity of the scene). That scene felt like the galaxy uniting. On the ground, though, it was just Shepard with his squad of two crawling through the ruins, pretty much like it has always been: This was not supposed to be a small infiltration quest like all the other missions in the game, this was supposed to be the final uprising of the entire galaxy. It felt like my trusted "army of three" won this, rather than the combined forces of the galaxy. That was a huge missed opportunity and would have also provided a good contrast to the final scenes, which Shepard had to face alone.
  • The Tali face-reveal scene was… discussable. Now, I certainly don't adore this character as much as others on here, but even just from reading these forums, it was obvious that people cared a whole lot about Tali. The simplistic photoshop job was bound to hurt people, and I can't happen to see any merit in the way it was presented. Referring back to my top comment, this was an instance of Bioware taking away the ability to imagine your own details for the worse.
  • I was severely disappointed by the "Morinth" Banshee. I understand that only few people picked her over Samara in ME2, but again, why did Bioware need to close off a potential for personal story-shaping here by invariably making her an "Easter egg" Banshee in the London mission? I don't see any merit here, other than risking to hurt people who cared about the character: If you don't know anything to do with the character, just leave it out, but don't invalidate people's own stories for no reason.
  • The EMS system: This could have worked well if it was an externalization of actual "achievement" throughout the game. As an example, if my EMS rises because I did something within the game mechanics, like playing a mission in a certain way, this could have worked. EMS never felt like something externalizing your success, it just felt like a meaningless resource you had to keep an eye on (I play a lot of multiplayer anyway, invalidating EMS entirely).
  • The "overheard" side-quests: I fully understand the reasoning behind this style of presentation (less dialog means they are more economic to add), but it feels incredibly weird to basically jump into your spaceship, go to the other side of the galaxy, scan some planets there, then return to the Citadel, just because you overheard someone complaining they needed some replacement parts. It would have been infinitely better to simply make these characters "clickable" and have them actually ask Shepard to help them. It's just a little thing that breaks immersion badly for me.
  • The lack of Harbinger: I'm only naming this tentatively, because I have a gut feeling that he might reappear in a DLC eventually. However, even if Harbinger turned out not to be all too special amongst Reapers, other than being the very first, his role was huge in ME2, and there hasn't been any following up on this. Deciding not to make Harbinger the main antagonist does not mean he shouldn't appear at all anymore. I mean, didn't we actually earn the "attention of those infinitely our greater"? At least a little nod to ME2 players (I don't really count the final beam run as a "Harbinger appearance", because his role could have been replaced by any other Sovereign-class Reaper without any difference in story development or overall feel, at least for me).
  • The "Scanning and Reaper evasion" mini game: It's a cute idea, but I'm ambivalent about it. Most of the time, evading the Reapers just feels like a chore, where you constantly exit and reenter a system just to get a quick scan of that last area you're missing. I'd say that if you decide to put a mini game in, said mini game should be fun in its own right. Maybe the Reaper evasion could have been improved by having another mechanic, like using your Reaper IFF or something to distract the Reapers, etc… Right now, I don't see any merit in it, other than giving you a vague sense of annoyance, rather then fear of the Reapers.

Now, I don't mean this list to be exhaustive or anything, but then again, the things irking me most when I only think about it quickly are probably more salient than some nitpicks I would come up with after hours :-)

Also, I prefer to end on a more positive note, so I wanted to include a list of small things I actually did like about the writing and presentation.

  • Tiny (overheard) side-stories, like the PTSD-suffering Asari in the hospital, the group of soldiers in Purgatory or the teenage refugee with the Turian clerk in the camp on the Citadel – Those added a lot of depth to the game for me and truly made it feel as if stuff was happening even without Shepard looking. Especially finding Charr's (that dead Krogan in the Rachni mission) last letter to his Asari girlfriend and handing it over, well, that was one of the most emotional moments in the game for me, even though it was probably just what one single writer found interesting to add – Whoever that guy was, thank you!
  • The way in which the crew interact with each other, both on missions and on the ship: I enjoy the little banter a great deal, and I always found it odd in ME2 that everybody seemed to stay in their room at all times. I recently played the Eden Prime mission from "From Ashes" again with a Shepard who has a "Colonist" background, and when some squad mate said something about the colonists on Eden Prime needing to rebuild in the future, Shepard replied this didn't happen on Mindoir, referencing that background – Finding such little items in your x-th play-through is certainly a sign of a lot of consideration having gone into the writing.
  • I absolutely love how the final scene in the Omega DLC is defined, e.g. not by picking a dialog wheel choice right before it, but by your characterization throughout the entire DLC – I've been missing such a form of more "organic" decision making in ME. I always found it odd how little influence insanely evil (or insanely nice) choices had on NPCs: As an example, I'd expect some of the crew to be disgusted when Shepard executes Shiala in ME1 or murders Samara's daughter in ME3. If there's one wish I could make for ME4, it's something like this, more implicit opportunities to affect the story and characters, rather than only explicit wheel choices and interrupts.
  • The settings: The Citadel, the missions, all the maps are stunningly beautiful and feel alive. Well, even the multiplayer maps have such astonishing detail, it's really a far cry from the rather sterile environments in ME1. I can only hope that future ME content will manage to keep up with this quality!


#236
xxskyshadowxx

xxskyshadowxx
  • Members
  • 1 123 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They mentioned the 'too video-gamy' thing in the Final Hours app; http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Artistic Integrity thing came from one of the co-founders of Bioware "The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.";
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

So no, not a myth. :I

Which part: that the words 'artistic integrity' were said, or that they were a 'main defense' of the game as was?

Unsurprisingly, even the sentence itself doesn't use the term as a cover-all shield. It isn't even used as a defense of the endings!


I think folks are remembering Colin from IGN's self-important carping about "Artistic integrity" in his rant about folks' reactions to the ending, and then are attributing it to BioWare because of the brief mention of it in the blog.  All that crap kinda ran together.

That being said, it's still silly to worry about the "Artistic integrity" of a commercial release. So the OP isn't entirely off base. The problem though is that BioWare was caught completely off guard by the fans' reactions (I've already expressed my opinion on why they shouldn't have been in other posts, so I will leave it out here) and were stuck on how to react.

Part of the problem is not "Artistic integrity" (they are making a marketable product to sell BTW, not something to display so "A.I." doesn't fly) but rather the creative process in videogames as a whole. With movies, television, and even novels, the work is screened by peers and small audience focus groups and critiqued. Based on the response of those folks, the work is modified. Some authors rewrite their own books multiple times based on reader feedback before publication. When focus groups' feedback is applied to the work, the work is often successful (although you can't please everyone), and when it is ignored, typically the work is reviled.

Videogame development doesn't incorporate this at all. If it had, BioWare would have been aware of what fans' general opinions of the direction of the game would have been, while they were in the middle of the creative process. This would have allowed them to use that feedback while structuring the game, so the artistic integrity could be maintained. The result likely would have been a game that core fans would have been less disappointed in, a possibly stronger, more fleshed out game overall, and because the creative teams would have been apprised of projected feedback during the process, they wouldn't have felt "punched in the face" by the fan reaction, because they would have been aware of opinions during the process rather than get blasted with them after all that hard work was done.

I am not happy with how ME3 turned out overall (There are some epic gold moments within it however, I will not deny that), but I think overall it is a good thing that the whole debacle happened. Maybe as a result game developers will start considering following the same creative process that motion picture studios, television producers and publishing companies follow. If they do I think we will see even better games in the future (not just a ton of CoD rip-offs...ugh this console generation and it's FPS games...ugh again) and the game developers should see higher profits as well.