235 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

someguy1231 wrote...

Well then, it's a good thing Bioware gave us a boss fight that fit the story much better, right? That final fight with Harbinger we had was incredible!

Oh, wait, that never happened...<_<

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the "video-gamey" quote is utterly absurd and nonsensical. Would anyone ever remove something from a film because it's "too cinematic"? Besides, they're complete hypocrites for saying something like that, and yet forcing Kai Leng onto us not once, but twice throughout the game and blatantly giving him plot-breaking powers in order to annoy Shepard and be a cheap source of drama. Bioware merely deprived us a final confrontation with the main antagonist (Harbinger, not TIM and definitely not the Catalyst) in a pathetic and misguided attempt at "art".

To reply to David7204: As others have pointed out, the quote came from the "Final Hours" app, not the art book. And it doesn't matter if they said "video-gamey" only once. Whenever any public figure says something stupid or absurd, they get hounded to hell for it (and deservedly so), even if they do it only once.

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

[Outsider edge]

Andromidius wrote...

You all realise that if the endings went over your head and you didn't understand them, Bioware still have the right to be proud of their own art, right? Dumbing it down so people understand it would ruin it.

People just refuse to admit it, say its bad and then congratulate themselves for it. Criticising the literal ending isn't hard - because its designed to be criticised and analysed and then rejected. And then you need to realise what the ending actually ment.

The original endings were supposed too lead too a galaxywide wasteland as said by SuperMac himself in the Final Hours App. People analyzed it too high heavens the first weeks and all it lead too were destroyed worlds/starving species etc etc. The ending didn't have any hidden meaning at all it felt rushed, incomplete and the only emotion it trigger was a big "dafuq just happened".

[Clayless]

Xellith wrote...

Far as I see it he died to get the cure out. Not to "kill a monster". I felt the whole "butterfly on the glass" was a bit silly tbh.  Im sure they could have executed it a lot better.  Also when was the last time that films were exactly as they are in books?  You go into watching films more or less expecting there to be large chunks of it rewriten or cut.

How's he going to get the cure out now he's dead? The woman just hands a vial of blood to a random guard in a small village, how are they supposed to replicate the cure? Also, why is it called I Am Legend? What does the title stand for?

That's why they shouldn't have listened to the test audience.

[Fixers0]

'Too videogamey' can be applied to lots of stuff within Mass Effect 3. 

Modifié par Fixers0, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

someguy1231 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's true. Along with "too-videogamey." I think that phrase was used literally once in the art book.

Casey Hudson used it in that "Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" thing.

Indeed. You remember what else was in the sentence? Or the context?

'Too-videogamey' was used in the context of explaining why TIM wasn't turned into a Reaper-monster for a boss-fight on the Citadel after the beam. The team didn't feel that turning TIM away from a dialogue villain into a fugly combat boss monster was appropriate, and that the main reason to have such a boss fight would have been for the boss fight's own sake rather than for the story or character.

Well then, it's a good thing Bioware gave us a boss fight that fit the story much better, right? That final fight with Harbinger we had was incredible!

Oh, wait, that never happened...<_<

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the "video-gamey" quote is utterly absurd and nonsensical. Would anyone ever remove something from a film because it's "too cinematic"? Besides, they're complete hypocrites for saying something like that, and yet forcing Kai Leng onto us not once, but twice throughout the game and blatantly giving him plot-breaking powers in order to annoy Shepard and be a cheap source of drama. Bioware merely deprived us a final confrontation with the main antagonist (Harbinger, not TIM and definitely not the Catalyst) in a pathetic and misguided attempt at "art".

It's pretty apparent you don't quite grasp the distinction being made... and are completely uninterested in even trying.

To reply to David7204: As others have pointed out, the quote came from the "Final Hours" app, not the art book. And it doesn't matter if they said "video-gamey" only once. Whenever any public figure says something stupid or absurd, they get hounded to hell for it (and deservedly so), even if they do it only once.

If something is said only once, though, only the more dishonest of people would try and claim it as a major position.

[someguy1231]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Well then, it's a good thing Bioware gave us a boss fight that fit the story much better, right? That final fight with Harbinger we had was incredible!

Oh, wait, that never happened...<_<

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the "video-gamey" quote is utterly absurd and nonsensical. Would anyone ever remove something from a film because it's "too cinematic"? Besides, they're complete hypocrites for saying something like that, and yet forcing Kai Leng onto us not once, but twice throughout the game and blatantly giving him plot-breaking powers in order to annoy Shepard and be a cheap source of drama. Bioware merely deprived us a final confrontation with the main antagonist (Harbinger, not TIM and definitely not the Catalyst) in a pathetic and misguided attempt at "art".

To reply to David7204: As others have pointed out, the quote came from the "Final Hours" app, not the art book. And it doesn't matter if they said "video-gamey" only once. Whenever any public figure says something stupid or absurd, they get hounded to hell for it (and deservedly so), even if they do it only once.

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

"People like me"? What considerate language from you. <_<  How would you like it if one of your favorite gaming features was being pushed aside in the name of "art"? Well, to use your own language right back at you, people like you are why more and more games are streamlining their gameplay, focusing on prentious and often incomprehensible narratives, and phasing out more and more features which make games fun to play. 

Videos games don't need to take the "game" out of "video game" in order to be taken seriously. Besides, I'll take a "boss fight for the sake of a boss fight" over a "heroic sacrifice for the sake of a heroic sacrifice" ending anyday.

[Outsider edge]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Well then, it's a good thing Bioware gave us a boss fight that fit the story much better, right? That final fight with Harbinger we had was incredible!

Oh, wait, that never happened...<_<

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the "video-gamey" quote is utterly absurd and nonsensical. Would anyone ever remove something from a film because it's "too cinematic"? Besides, they're complete hypocrites for saying something like that, and yet forcing Kai Leng onto us not once, but twice throughout the game and blatantly giving him plot-breaking powers in order to annoy Shepard and be a cheap source of drama. Bioware merely deprived us a final confrontation with the main antagonist (Harbinger, not TIM and definitely not the Catalyst) in a pathetic and misguided attempt at "art".

To reply to David7204: As others have pointed out, the quote came from the "Final Hours" app, not the art book. And it doesn't matter if they said "video-gamey" only once. Whenever any public figure says something stupid or absurd, they get hounded to hell for it (and deservedly so), even if they do it only once.

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

Lair of the Shadowbroker has twice the ammount of direct bossfights then Mass Effect 3 as a whole. And that's a DLC. Mass Effect 3 only had writer's pet Kai Leng the Final Fantasy ninja as a direct bossfight. That's it while there was oppertunity enough for a classical showdown (Harbinger where art thou...).

Modifié par Outsider edge, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[Xellith]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Far as I see it he died to get the cure out. Not to "kill a monster". I felt the whole "butterfly on the glass" was a bit silly tbh.  Im sure they could have executed it a lot better.  Also when was the last time that films were exactly as they are in books?  You go into watching films more or less expecting there to be large chunks of it rewriten or cut.

How's he going to get the cure out now he's dead? The woman just hands a vial of blood to a random guard in a small village, how are they supposed to replicate the cure? Also, why is it called I Am Legend? What does the title stand for?

That's why they shouldn't have listened to the test audience.

In regards to the "I am Legend" I always asumed it was because his broadcast had "I am" in it several times.  Him been given the task of finding a cure.  Being the last man in the city.  Thus being a legend since most people asume he prolly died years ago.  Least thats what my mind strung together at the time. 

I doubt that every scientist in the world is now dead.  Her getting the cure out and giving it to someone and just saying "um yea the cure is in this we need to find someone to make more of it" would mean that his sacrifice wasnt for nothing. 

Why is mass effect called mass effect?

[spirosz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They mentioned the 'too video-gamy' thing in the Final Hours app; http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Artistic Integrity thing came from one of the co-founders of Bioware "The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.";
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

So no, not a myth. :I

Which part: that the words 'artistic integrity' were said, or that they were a 'main defense' of the game as was?

Unsurprisingly, even the sentence itself doesn't use the term as a cover-all shield. It isn't even used as a defense of the endings!

It's a clever use of words, which can be interpreted as their "main defense" mindset. 

Modifié par spirosz, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Far as I see it he died to get the cure out. Not to "kill a monster". I felt the whole "butterfly on the glass" was a bit silly tbh.  Im sure they could have executed it a lot better.  Also when was the last time that films were exactly as they are in books?  You go into watching films more or less expecting there to be large chunks of it rewriten or cut.

How's he going to get the cure out now he's dead? The woman just hands a vial of blood to a random guard in a small village, how are they supposed to replicate the cure?

With science... and, presumably, anti-bodies of some sort. The vaguely medical stuff we already use for identifying natural resistences to study and re-create them.

Also, why is it called I Am Legend? What does the title stand for?

Him. Who becomes a legend for being a messiah figure through saving both the woman and child through his own self-sacrifice, but through them provided the means to save Humanity as we know it.

[spirosz]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

I don't know what era you're in, but games are taken seriously. 

[Dean_the_Young]

spirosz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They mentioned the 'too video-gamy' thing in the Final Hours app; http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Artistic Integrity thing came from one of the co-founders of Bioware "The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.";
http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

So no, not a myth. :I

Which part: that the words 'artistic integrity' were said, or that they were a 'main defense' of the game as was?

Unsurprisingly, even the sentence itself doesn't use the term as a cover-all shield. It isn't even used as a defense of the endings!

It's a clever use of words, whicn can be interpreted as their "main defense" mindset. 

That mindset is the responsibility of the people who should be bothered to read and understand what the words were being used for in the first place. Artistic Integrity was never used as a shield to deny or deflect all criticism or refuse to make any changes, but that's exactly how the meme came to be used.

[Clayless]

someguy1231 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

"People like me"? What considerate language from you. <_<  How would you like it if one of your favorite gaming features was being pushed aside in the name of "art"? Well, to use your own language right back at you, people like you are why more and more games are streamlining their gameplay, focusing on prentious and often incomprehensible narratives, and phasing out more and more features which make games fun to play. 

Videos games don't need to take the "game" out of "video game" in order to be taken seriously. Besides, I'll take a "boss fight for the sake of a boss fight" over a "heroic sacrifice for the sake of a heroic sacrifice" ending anyday.

The movie equivalent of your argument would be you defending Michael Bay films and critisising anything that doesn't have mindless action for the sake of mindless action as "stupid or absurd".

[spirosz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That mindset is the responsibility of the people who should be bothered to read and understand what the words were being used for in the first place. Artistic Integrity was never used as a shield to deny or deflect all criticism or refuse to make any changes, but that's exactly how the meme came to be used.

I understand it and I view it differently, each their own.  

Modifié par spirosz, 28 décembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

If games need to no longer be fun to be taken seriously, then I'm out.

Why must we seek to be "taken seriously"? I just want old people seeking an excuse for bad things to stop harping on "violent" video games and get thier heads out of thier behind, and leave me having fun the hell alone.

[Outsider edge]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

"People like me"? What considerate language from you. <_<  How would you like it if one of your favorite gaming features was being pushed aside in the name of "art"? Well, to use your own language right back at you, people like you are why more and more games are streamlining their gameplay, focusing on prentious and often incomprehensible narratives, and phasing out more and more features which make games fun to play. 

Videos games don't need to take the "game" out of "video game" in order to be taken seriously. Besides, I'll take a "boss fight for the sake of a boss fight" over a "heroic sacrifice for the sake of a heroic sacrifice" ending anyday.

The movie equivalent of your argument would be you defending Michael Bay films and critisising anything that doesn't have mindless action for the sake of mindless action as "stupid or absurd".

This doesn't make an ounce of sense. If i want too see a Michael Bay movie i expect action and very little story. I would be dissapointed if it turned out too be a tearjerker or biopic or whatever. Different directors different expectations. Mass Effect is a sci-fi thrillride with a moderate story and strong characters. As with the previous games this should include bossfights. If this was a point and click adventure you would be right too be annoyed when confronted with a bossfight because it wouldn't fit. Just as the lack of bossfights or the artsy endings don't fit Mass Effect.

And yes the whole "too video-gamey" eventhough perhaps partially out of context does apply here. If they're so concerned with leaving the mold they should start making indy games. Like for example Journey a 2 hour stroll through a desert with barely any gameplay at all which coincidently is kicking Mass Effect 3's ass when it comes too goty awards.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 28 décembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[Clayless]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

If games need to no longer be fun to be taken seriously, then I'm out.

Why must we seek to be "taken seriously"? I just want old people seeking an excuse for bad things to stop harping on "violent" video games and get thier heads out of thier behind, and leave me having fun the hell alone.

Fun is subjective.

[Ticonderoga117]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Fun is subjective.

This is true.

[someguy1231]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's people like you why games will never be taken seriously. It's ridiculous you think it's "stupid or absurd" that there's not a boss battle in a game, just for the sake of having a boss battle.

"People like me"? What considerate language from you. <_<  How would you like it if one of your favorite gaming features was being pushed aside in the name of "art"? Well, to use your own language right back at you, people like you are why more and more games are streamlining their gameplay, focusing on prentious and often incomprehensible narratives, and phasing out more and more features which make games fun to play. 

Videos games don't need to take the "game" out of "video game" in order to be taken seriously. Besides, I'll take a "boss fight for the sake of a boss fight" over a "heroic sacrifice for the sake of a heroic sacrifice" ending anyday.

The movie equivalent of your argument would be you defending Michael Bay films and critisising anything that doesn't have mindless action for the sake of mindless action as "stupid or absurd".

So are you actually going to consider my arguments, or just make pathetic strawmen?

[Clayless]

Outsider edge wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The movie equivalent of your argument would be you defending Michael Bay films and critisising anything that doesn't have mindless action for the sake of mindless action as "stupid or absurd".

This doesn't make an ounce of sense. If i want too see a Michael Bay movie i expect action and very little story. I would be dissapointed if it turned out too be a tearjerker or biopic or whatever. Different directors different expectations. Mass Effect is a sci-fi thrillride with a moderate story and strong characters. As with the previous games this should include bossfights. If this was a point and click adventure you would be right too be annoyed when confronted with a bossfight because it wouldn't fit. Just as the lack of bossfights or the artsy endings don't fit Mass Effect.

And you expect story for games like Mass Effect, and mindless action for the sake of mindless action in games like CoD. What bossfights were there in the previous games? Saren would be the most likely but even he's just an advanced Geth Hopper. The Human-Reaper? Yeah, that's one, but it is heavily criticised by BSN. ME3 had Kai Leng, who is also almost universally criticised.

Turning TIM into a monster so there could be a boss fight, just for the sake of having a boss fight, really isn't something that games need to do, especially Mass Effect, a game whose strength lies in the story.

The fact that a story driven game, especially one that was heavily criticised for its previous boss fights, not having a boss fight for the sake of having one is considered "stupid or absurd" really is ridiculous. Even worse is that valid point was turned into a meme to be used against Bioware.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 28 décembre 2012 - 01:20 .

[Outsider edge]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The movie equivalent of your argument would be you defending Michael Bay films and critisising anything that doesn't have mindless action for the sake of mindless action as "stupid or absurd".

This doesn't make an ounce of sense. If i want too see a Michael Bay movie i expect action and very little story. I would be dissapointed if it turned out too be a tearjerker or biopic or whatever. Different directors different expectations. Mass Effect is a sci-fi thrillride with a moderate story and strong characters. As with the previous games this should include bossfights. If this was a point and click adventure you would be right too be annoyed when confronted with a bossfight because it wouldn't fit. Just as the lack of bossfights or the artsy endings don't fit Mass Effect.

And you expect story for games like Mass Effect, and mindless action for the sake of mindless action in games like CoD. What bossfights were there in the previous games? Saren would be the most likely but even he's just an advanced Geth Hopper. The Human-Reaper? Yeah, that's one, but it is heavily criticised by BSN. ME3 had Kai Leng, who is also almost universally criticised.

Turning TIM into a monster so there could be a boss fight, just for the sake of having a boss fight, really isn't something that games need to do, especially Mass Effect, a game whose strength lies in the story.

I'm not saying they should have turned TIM into some Reaper hybrid because the verbal confrontation fit the character. However the lack of bossfights in ME3 didn't fit the game neither did the utter lack of a positive ending. ME1 you could end on a positive note, ME2 you could end on a positive note, ME3 is sacrifice or ultimate defeat.
Even the DLC's thus far have had zero bossfights. Leviathan didn't have any and Omega's big showdown with Petrovsky deflated like a baloon.

[Fixers0]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Turning TIM into a monster so there could be a boss fight, just for the sake of having a boss fight, really isn't something that games need to do, especially Mass Effect, a game whose strength lies in the story.

That be reasonable argument, if  that were to be the only case in which an event that could be classified as  having an exces of gameplay material, without having a proper narrative justification. But as it stands such kind of events have taken ample place in Mass Effect 3, The most obvious ones being, the various turret scenes that take place during the course of the game.  

Modifié par Fixers0, 28 décembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[Clayless]

Outsider edge wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

And you expect story for games like Mass Effect, and mindless action for the sake of mindless action in games like CoD. What bossfights were there in the previous games? Saren would be the most likely but even he's just an advanced Geth Hopper. The Human-Reaper? Yeah, that's one, but it is heavily criticised by BSN. ME3 had Kai Leng, who is also almost universally criticised.

Turning TIM into a monster so there could be a boss fight, just for the sake of having a boss fight, really isn't something that games need to do, especially Mass Effect, a game whose strength lies in the story.

I'm not saying they should have turned TIM into some Reaper hybrid because the verbal confrontation fit the character. However the lack of bossfights in ME3 didn't fit the game neither did the utter lack of a positive ending. ME1 you could end on a positive note, ME2 you could end on a positive note, ME3 is sacrifice or ultimate defeat.
Even the DLC's thus far have had zero bossfights. Leviathan didn't have any and Omega's big showdown with Petrovsky deflated like a baloon.

The entire argument is about turning TIM into a monster just for the sake of having a boss battle. People hated the fact that Bioware decided not to do that, hence the whole "too video-gamey" meme.

[Dr_Extrem]

the fights against tela vasir and the shadow broker were highly praised as the "way to go" if i remeber correctly.

overlord had the dish and the final "fight" to stop the upload. this can be considered as a bossfight.

in "stolen memory", we fight donovan hook and his gunship, while fighting mooks - clearly a boss fight.

the thorian, saren (virmire) and benezia can be considered as bossfights as well.

[Outsider edge]

Fixers0 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Turning TIM into a monster so there could be a boss fight, just for the sake of having a boss fight, really isn't something that games need to do, especially Mass Effect, a game whose strength lies in the story.

That be reasonable argument, if  that were to be the only case in which an event that could be classified as  having an exces of gameplay material, without having a proper narrative justification. But as it stands such kind of events have taken ample place in Mass Effect 3, The most obvious ones being, the various turret scenes that take place during the course of the game.  

Those turret scenes make no sense at all. For example try this the next time you are in the Hammer base on Earth. After talking too Garrus you change the difficulty too max then proceed in doing the turret section. After it starts go make a cup of coffee....when you come back nothing has happened because the whole turretsection is just smoke and mirrors.