597 réponses à ce sujet

[Shenrai]

 So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

[King Cousland]

Couldn't agree more. With Meredith and Orsino we had A) No choice in their fate Very few reasons to feel any sympathy or empathy for them.

[Swagger7]

I love having the choice to kill or spare a villain like that. I certainly hope that one or more of the secondary villains is similar. I was just reminded of letting Colonel Autumn live in Fallout 3, and how surprised he was.

[The Hierophant]

Agreed but so long as he's voiced by Jonathan Frakes.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 décembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Shenrai wrote...

So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

[In Exile]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

The sparing him choice is that Loghain is still not a (complete) moron and (somewhat) good at killing things, which means that he'd make a fine Grey Warden (he hasn't tried to kill anything by jumping off a building yet, so he's ahead of Riordan). 

[Sol Downer]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Shenrai wrote...

So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

I liked Loghian, he may have betrayed me, but he was a worthy opponent and I respected him for his ability to survive and thrive under pressure from nobels, darkspawn, and me. He was a highly trained warrior, a leader of men, and a commander of an army. He inspired loyalty quite easily, and he was pretty smart. Not just smart, he was a genius, on and off the battlefield. His actions were reprehensible, yes, and he may not deserve life, but he would be useful to my cause. Far more useful than Alistar, who was on the throne at the time.

[daft inquisitor]

I liked the choice of whether or not to recruit Loghain, but I HATED the fact that, no matter how great your relationship was with Alistaire, no matter how diplomatic and fasttalking you were, you couldn't stop him from leaving if you recruited Loghain.

If you do something like that again, at least give us a CHANCE to keep the tank that we've been building up with awesome abilities and gear for a good 40 hours.

My first playthrough, I was playing a goody-goody, but tactically-minded rogue who thought it was a great idea to recruit Loghain, him being the war hero and military strategist that he was, despite the fact he was a huge dick. So I did. And Alistair, who was the only thing keeping me from dying a bloody death, left. Even though him and I were bestest-best-buddies, and I helped him get over the thing with his sister, and all that jazz. He was being childish, and I feel my character should have been able to talk him out of acting like that. :/ But, I couldn't. Reload, kill Loghain, go into the final battle knowing my army wasn't in as good of a position as it could have been.

[daft inquisitor]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Shenrai wrote...

So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

His relatable personality was part of it, if you ask me. With good verbal skills, you could learn that a lot of what he did was him freaking out in honest fear that his nation would be overrun (either by Darkspawn or political enemies), his daughter taken from him in a variety of ways (or running away, even), or simple erratic paranoia. He was a relatable character because, in tramatic and stressful times, a lot of us have been known to do bad things with good intentions. It's kind of the human way.

He made a great villain because, despite thinking he was a backstabbing lunatic the entire time I was fighting him, it was when I had the chance to talk to him that I found I might just have done the same thing in his shoes.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 28 décembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Sol Downer]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Shenrai wrote...

So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

His relatable personality was part of it, if you ask me. With good verbal skills, you could learn that a lot of what he did was him freaking out in honest fear that his nation would be overrun (either by Darkspawn or political enemies), his daughter taken from him in a variety of ways (or running away, even), or simple erratic paranoia. He was a relatable character because, in tramatic and stressful times, a lot of us have been known to do bad things with good intentions. It's kind of the human way.

He made a great villain because, despite thinking he was a backstabbing lunatic the entire time I was fighting him, it was when I had the chance to talk to him that I found I might just have done the same thing in his shoes.

I agree completely. As a plus, he's a badass father-in-law to the Cousland Warden

[hoorayforicecream]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

I liked the choice of whether or not to recruit Loghain, but I HATED the fact that, no matter how great your relationship was with Alistaire, no matter how diplomatic and fasttalking you were, you couldn't stop him from leaving if you recruited Loghain.

If you do something like that again, at least give us a CHANCE to keep the tank that we've been building up with awesome abilities and gear for a good 40 hours.

My first playthrough, I was playing a goody-goody, but tactically-minded rogue who thought it was a great idea to recruit Loghain, him being the war hero and military strategist that he was, despite the fact he was a huge dick. So I did. And Alistair, who was the only thing keeping me from dying a bloody death, left. Even though him and I were bestest-best-buddies, and I helped him get over the thing with his sister, and all that jazz. He was being childish, and I feel my character should have been able to talk him out of acting like that. :/ But, I couldn't. Reload, kill Loghain, go into the final battle knowing my army wasn't in as good of a position as it could have been.

I disagree. One of the biggest things I've seen people clamor for is "choices that matter". If you have the choice of "A, B, or All of the above", one is clearly better than the rest and that choice just doesn't matter as much.  The fact that you can't have both is what makes the choice matter so much, and that's what makes you think carefully about the road not taken. If you can have them all, then there's not as much of a choice involved. 

This is also why I disliked the Redcliffe/Mage Tower dilemma that wasn't really a dilemma.

[daft inquisitor]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

I liked the choice of whether or not to recruit Loghain, but I HATED the fact that, no matter how great your relationship was with Alistaire, no matter how diplomatic and fasttalking you were, you couldn't stop him from leaving if you recruited Loghain.

If you do something like that again, at least give us a CHANCE to keep the tank that we've been building up with awesome abilities and gear for a good 40 hours.

My first playthrough, I was playing a goody-goody, but tactically-minded rogue who thought it was a great idea to recruit Loghain, him being the war hero and military strategist that he was, despite the fact he was a huge dick. So I did. And Alistair, who was the only thing keeping me from dying a bloody death, left. Even though him and I were bestest-best-buddies, and I helped him get over the thing with his sister, and all that jazz. He was being childish, and I feel my character should have been able to talk him out of acting like that. :/ But, I couldn't. Reload, kill Loghain, go into the final battle knowing my army wasn't in as good of a position as it could have been.

I disagree. One of the biggest things I've seen people clamor for is "choices that matter". If you have the choice of "A, B, or All of the above", one is clearly better than the rest and that choice just doesn't matter as much.  The fact that you can't have both is what makes the choice matter so much, and that's what makes you think carefully about the road not taken. If you can have them all, then there's not as much of a choice involved. 

This is also why I disliked the Redcliffe/Mage Tower dilemma that wasn't really a dilemma.

I agree that it shouldn't be just a flat, "you automatically get both". My thought of it is that, I spent the ENTIRE GAME with Alistair in the party. The fact that our relationship was as bro as bro could get, and that I had been a good enough friend through him through some seriously tough ****, SHOULD account for him just once being on my side about a decision that seems crazy.

If I didn't have a good relationship with him, that's understandable. It should be something you actually have to dedicate a lot of energy into doing, but it SHOULD be do-able.

Neverwinter Nights 2 did something I rather liked. At a few key points through the game, you would get major decisions, and depending on what your party members thought of you, you could have them stick with you even if you do something completely agains their nature. Because you're close enought to them that they trust your judgement.

In DA:O, I felt none of that at that point, and it was frustrating.

[In Exile]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

I liked the choice of whether or not to recruit Loghain, but I HATED the fact that, no matter how great your relationship was with Alistaire, no matter how diplomatic and fasttalking you were, you couldn't stop him from leaving if you recruited Loghain.

Unless you pick the right choices to make Alistair more pragmatic during his personal quest. He still leaves the party, but doesn't throw a fit with Loghain (as much). 

[In Exile]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
I agree that it shouldn't be just a flat, "you automatically get both". My thought of it is that, I spent the ENTIRE GAME with Alistair in the party. The fact that our relationship was as bro as bro could get, and that I had been a good enough friend through him through some seriously tough ****, SHOULD account for him just once being on my side about a decision that seems crazy.

Loghain killed his father figure. That Alistair doesn't outright gut him then and there is, IMO, as much a sign of self-control and your friendship as you can get. It's silly that someone could compromise that vengful aspect of themselves for someone else. 

[daft inquisitor]

In Exile wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
I agree that it shouldn't be just a flat, "you automatically get both". My thought of it is that, I spent the ENTIRE GAME with Alistair in the party. The fact that our relationship was as bro as bro could get, and that I had been a good enough friend through him through some seriously tough ****, SHOULD account for him just once being on my side about a decision that seems crazy.

Loghain killed his father figure. That Alistair doesn't outright gut him then and there is, IMO, as much a sign of self-control and your friendship as you can get. It's silly that someone could compromise that vengful aspect of themselves for someone else. 

Yeah, but he wouldn't even allow me a, "Let him help with defending the city, and a little bit of recruitement for the Wardens, and THEN I'll let you gut him like a fish and get your petty revenge."

Yes, I do understand this line of argument, but I also believe that Alistaire could have been coerced into being reasonable enough to know killing Loghain was a wasteful decision. Pragmatism has it's place, especially on the battlefield. A veteran Grey Warden should know all about keeping your friends close, and your enemies closer.

[AshenShug4r]

I didn't think too much on it. He betrayed his king(the child of his best friend), the grey wardens, sent assassins after me, conspired with Arl Howe who was a despicable man and murdered an entire family(including children and civilians). When Riordan gave the option of making him a grey warden I briefly considered it but Alistair wanted him dead and Alistair and I had been in it from the start. I didn't even particularly like Loghain anyway, nor Anora.

[In Exile]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
Yeah, but he wouldn't even allow me a, "Let him help with defending the city, and a little bit of recruitement for the Wardens, and THEN I'll let you gut him like a fish and get your petty revenge."

It's more that the game didn't give you a choice between Wardens (which Alistair sees as an honour and not a punishment) and DEATH. 

Yes, I do understand this line of argument, but I also believe that Alistaire could have been coerced into being reasonable enough to know killing Loghain was a wasteful decision. Pragmatism has it's place, especially on the battlefield. A veteran Grey Warden should know all about keeping your friends close, and your enemies closer.

But Alistair is a petulant child most of the time. It wasn't about it being wasteful or not - it's the same reason why Alistair is not super cool about the anvil of the void or killing Connor/BMing Isolode. Pragmatist Alistair is not. 

[daft inquisitor]

In Exile wrote...

Pragmatist Alistair is not. 

Unless you harden him first...

Even if that would have been the deciding factor of him staying or not, I still think it should have been an option. Even one nestled miles-deep in a set of very specific prerequisites, it still should have been an option, IMO. But, either way, discussing it isn't going to change anything. I've said my piece on the matter.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 28 décembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Fiacre]

In Exile wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
I agree that it shouldn't be just a flat, "you automatically get both". My thought of it is that, I spent the ENTIRE GAME with Alistair in the party. The fact that our relationship was as bro as bro could get, and that I had been a good enough friend through him through some seriously tough ****, SHOULD account for him just once being on my side about a decision that seems crazy.

Loghain killed his father figure. That Alistair doesn't outright gut him then and there is, IMO, as much a sign of self-control and your friendship as you can get. It's silly that someone could compromise that vengful aspect of themselves for someone else. 

He can loath you and still won't gut Loghain, though. (Thinking about it, it might have been interesting if depending on your relationship and how that scene goes, you two end up actually fighting..) Though the whole scene suffered a bit from too little variation depending on your relationship, anyway. It's kind of weird when you're on bad terms with Alistair and he's all "how can you do this to me :C".

[SafetyShattered]

King Cousland wrote...

Couldn't agree more. With Meredith and Orsino we had A) No choice in their fate Very few reasons to feel any sympathy or empathy for them.

[XX-Pyro]

You mean like the Arishok?

[Sol Downer]

XX-Pyro wrote...

You mean like the Arishok?

Noooooo, come on, man! Read the title of the thread!

[XX-Pyro]

Ultimashade wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

You mean like the Arishok?

Noooooo, come on, man! Read the title of the thread!

I guess the Arishok wasn't human... but he was similar to Loghain in that we could let him go, fight him 1v1, fight his whole crew. We had so many outcomes with him and he was written incredibly well in my opinion. Loghain was a terrible villain unless you purchased and read The Stolen Throne, which gives him a bit more background and makes him semi likeable. 

The same can be said with Cassandra for me. Hated her in DA2 because she was being a needless **** when it wasn't necessary and Varric was willing to help, but after watching the movie I liked her a lot as a character and hope we see her in DA:I.