597 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Except once you defeat him, he sees something of Maric in you. Maric, the man he would've followed into the Fade itself.

For him to disobey and betray you would in turn mean he was betraying Maric.

Which, like much of Loghain's character, doesn't make any sense. Why does Loghain suddenly see this resembance now and not before? Where is this epiphany coming from? If the Warden has already won the respect of the Landsmeet, then why does it take a duel to make Loghain "see the light", as it were?

Not to mention, Loghain has betrayed Maric before. He deliberately witheld pertinent information about a personal situation, in order to manipulate Maric into murdering his own lover, ostensibly to teach him a "lesson".

This is not the action of a friend, and certainly not the action of a man who supposedly respected Maric and trusted him to make his own decisions abut what was best for Ferelden. So the fact that Loghain sees Maric in the Warden is not comforting at all.

[Addai]

Dorrieb wrote...

'Willing' is a bit of an exaggeration. It isn't as if he can do anything about it. I had to beat him up twice before he went 'oh, look, you kind of have Maric's nose! Well I'm totally convinced now, sorry about the misunderstanding.'

The Landsmeet finds Loghain guilty in all outcomes, so he has lost all office and standing.  He could still make trouble for you, to be sure, but at that point the Warden has a large army so there's really little point.  The fact that he immediately submits to the Joining, knowing it could be fatal, is a signal of his surrender.

He doesn't immediately have regard for you just because of the duel.  You're being hyperbolic.  That might eventually come about but his stance right after the Landsmeet, towards you and especially Riordan, is still disdain.

Eamon, Teagan, and the nobles who publicly sided with me against him.

None of whom make a peep about recruiting him.

His selling slaves to Tevinter is his least defensible action, it's true.  However it does pay for the troops that eventually go on to defeat the Blight, so yes, sacrificing a few to save the many is still defensible, particularly when there is some sort of plague in the alienage that could easily have spread to the rest of the city.  The Tevinters actually were healing people, as the dialogue outside the quarantine hospital shows.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:23 .

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

'Willing' is a bit of an exaggeration. It isn't as if he can do anything about it. I had to beat him up twice before he went 'oh, look, you kind of have Maric's nose! Well I'm totally convinced now, sorry about the misunderstanding.'

The Landsmeet finds Loghain guilty in all outcomes, so he has lost all office and standing.  He could still make trouble for you, to be sure, but at that point the Warden has a large army so there's really little point.  The fact that he immediately submits to the Joining, knowing it could be fatal, is a signal of his surrender.

He doesn't immediately have regard for you just because of the duel.  You're being hyperbolic.  That might eventually come about but his stance right after the Landsmeet, towards you and especially Riordan, is still disdain.

Eamon, Teagan, and the nobles who publicly sided with me against him.

None of whom make a peep about recruiting him.

His selling slaves to Tevinter is his least defensible action, it's true.  However it does pay for the troops that eventually go on to defeat the Blight, so yes, sacrificing a few to save the many is still defensible, particularly when there is some sort of plague in the alienage that could easily have spread to the rest of the city.

Except that the plague is and always was a lie.

Last I checked, Loghain didn't provide any troops, money, or any resources that could be said to be the profit from selling elves into slavery. The Warden raised the vast majority of the fighting force by himself.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...
Except that the plague is and always was a lie.

Last I checked, Loghain didn't provide any troops, money, or any resources that could be said to be the profit from selling elves into slavery. The Warden raised the vast majority of the fighting force by himself.

No it's not.  People actually are sick and dying, and one of the women tells Shianni that the Tevinters healed her relative.  I take it that this was part of the bargain, i.e. that they heal people and get to take their pick as slaves.  And several dialogue lines say that Loghain is paying for his troops using the earnings.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:35 .

[Dorrieb]

Addai67 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Except that the plague is and always was a lie.

Last I checked, Loghain didn't provide any troops, money, or any resources that could be said to be the profit from selling elves into slavery. The Warden raised the vast majority of the fighting force by himself.

No it's not.  People actually are sick and dying, and one of the women tells Shianni that the Tevinters healed her relative.  I take it that this was part of the bargain, i.e. that they heal people and get to take their pick as slaves.  And several dialogue lines say that Loghain is paying for his troops using the earnings.

No, you read that completely wrong, sorry. The so-called 'plague' was only a cover created by the Tevinters to hide their activities. And yes, Loghain paid for his troops with the earnings, but the troops that defeated the Blight were raised by the Warden. You even see a cinematic of them marching out from Redcliffe, Orzammar, the Circle Tower, and the Forest.

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

There is simply no such thing as 'legitimate reasons' for slavery.

I didn't say for it.

I said for why he went through with it. There's a difference.

That is an odd philosophy to have. I would say that doing an evil thing does make you an evil person, regardless of how guilty it makes you feel. We're not talking about nicking a pie from a bakery here. He sold people.

And the Warden murders people. 

Hell, let's ignore the Warden. Soldiers murder people for reasons politicians hold. That's murder -- even of a self-defense type -- and it's still an evil thing to do.

Doesn't make all soldiers evil, especially the ones that feel guilt over it.

'Dear The Ethereal Writer Redux,   As you know, we were desperate for funding for the war effort, so we've sold your parents to the pet food factory. We know that you understand, and sincerely regret the distress that this unfortunate necessity no doubt will cause you. Long live Ferelden! Love, Teyrn Loghain.'

You know what I kinda like to imagine about Loghain? That he would mount a rescue for those Elves sold into slavery. I'm of a mind to assume they were being carted across the borders which were in Loghain's control.

Ships sailing under Tevinter flags would be too noticeable -- not to mention there are pirates and raiders operating from an island off the coast of Denerim.

So I like to imagine that the soldiers escorting the slaves would be met by Loghain's men and killed, and the slaves freed.

Simple fanfic headcanon, but it would make him more interesting.

Now that said, would I be pissed if I was directly affected? Sure. Would I be so pissed I'd kill him? Don't know. But you can definitely bet your ass I'd hold it against him and bring it up to him whenever I could.

I wrote 'imprisoned' instead of 'freed' for some reason. Strangeness.

What, exactly? My right hook? The glint in my eye? My grim look of fierce determination? That is nonsense. It's nothing but a longing for approval from an authoritarian father figure.

Wow... no.

He sees in you the strength to lead the nation to safety, something that for the longest time he thought only he was capable of. He sees that, despite what he thought of you, you're not at all like Cailan when it comes to war.

Cailan couldn't lead a nation at all because he was a foolish king, Maric was lost at sea, Anora was considering approaching the Orlesians for assistance as well, and so on.

This isn't a longing for approval. Don't know how in the hell you came up with that.

This is him recognizing how he saw in your determination, your statements, and your strength that you are the best hope for the nation and he's happy to see it go to you. He can rest easy knowing someone that hasn't made the mistakes he has can lead the nation he loves so much to safety.

And he gladly accepts death if you choose to kill him. He doesn't fight back. He knows he's made mistakes and the only thing he does is try to console Anora.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:59 .

[Addai]

Dorrieb wrote...

No, you read that completely wrong, sorry. The so-called 'plague' was only a cover created by the Tevinters to hide their activities. And yes, Loghain paid for his troops with the earnings, but the troops that defeated the Blight were raised by the Warden. You even see a cinematic of them marching out from Redcliffe, Orzammar, the Circle Tower, and the Forest.

The plague is not a cover story.  If you talk to Valendrian after completing the quest, you can ask him about the plague and he just says they have dealt with things like this before.  You can see sick people crawling around the alienage.

In the final battle scene, you see regular Fereldan troops defending the city before the Warden's army even gets there.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Which, like much of Loghain's character, doesn't make any sense. Why does Loghain suddenly see this resembance now and not before? Where is this epiphany coming from? If the Warden has already won the respect of the Landsmeet, then why does it take a duel to make Loghain "see the light", as it were?

Because even an Orlesian can manipulate people? Because Maric had a sort of natural charisma and strength in spirit/determination that was evident in how he fought against the Orlesians -- something one could claim is analogous to fighting Loghain for the Warden?

Because he says that for the longest time, he thought you were an untested child wanting to play at war and you being able to defeat him, a seasoned general, shows that you have what it takes to lead an army?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 janvier 2013 - 08:01 .

[TEWR]

Except that the plague is and always was a lie.

Last I checked, Loghain didn't provide any troops, money, or any resources that could be said to be the profit from selling elves into slavery. The Warden raised the vast majority of the fighting force by himself.

Not really. You hear about how people are sick and were healed from other Elves -- not so much the Blight disease, but just illness in general.

You can actually see sick people, coughing and in pain.

The Tevinters were healing the actual sick people and taking the healthy ones who wanted a "precautionary dose of magic". A sick slave runs the risk of dying or relapsing on the trip. A healthy slave has a better shot of surviving the trip.

And Loghain did use the money to fund the war effort. You hear about this from numerous sources and see Denerim's troops defending it -- and dying. 

Not all of them were as well-armed as they could've been, but they were supplied. The Warden isn't the only one responsible for supplying the army. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 janvier 2013 - 07:59 .

[XX-Pyro]

Addai67 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

No, you read that completely wrong, sorry. The so-called 'plague' was only a cover created by the Tevinters to hide their activities. And yes, Loghain paid for his troops with the earnings, but the troops that defeated the Blight were raised by the Warden. You even see a cinematic of them marching out from Redcliffe, Orzammar, the Circle Tower, and the Forest.

The plague is not a cover story.  If you talk to Valendrian after completing the quest, you can ask him about the plague and he just says they have dealt with things like this before.  You can see sick people crawling around the alienage.

In the final battle scene, you see regular Fereldan troops defending the city before the Warden's army even gets there.

I haven't played Origins in a few months but I'm almost 100% certain it was a sham.

[TEWR]

XX-Pyro wrote...


I haven't played Origins in a few months but I'm almost 100% certain it was a sham.

Not so. It wasn't a sham. You can see actual sick Elves, hear how sick Elves were returned healthy, and so on.

The Tevinters would take the healthy Elves and heal the sick ones. If they saw a healthy Elf they really liked, they'd lie and say he's not looking too good and should get the precautionary magic. 

Or I think they'd say that. Haven't played an Elven Warden for a while.

[TEWR]

Who's glossing over it? I'm not, Addai's not. We're just saying that they were in fact healing people while at the same time using the sickness as pretense to take slaves.

[Dorrieb]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You know what I kinda like to imagine about Loghain? That he would mount a rescue for those Elves sold into slavery.

That is... lovely. I dunno, but it made me smile. : )

It's nothing but a longing for approval from an authoritarian father figure.

Wow... no.

He sees in you the strength to lead the nation to safety, something that for the longest time he thought only he was capable of. He sees that, despite what he thought of you, you're not at all like Cailan when it comes to war.

Cailan couldn't lead a nation at all because he was a foolish king, Maric was lost at sea, Anora was considering approaching the Orlesians for assistance as well, and so on.

This isn't a longing for approval. Don't know how in the hell you came up with that.

This is delicate ground, so treading carefully... Loghain is an obvious authoritarian paternal figure (strict but fair, don't make deals with Orlesians and he won't establish any reigns of terror). After a long period of being distant and hostile the Warden finally faces him in challenge and defeats him, and only then does Loghain acknowledge the Warden as a man (and not a child, like Cailan), and gives the Warden his approval. And the Warden eats it up. If you don't hear Freud scribbling excitedly in the background, well I dunno.

[alex90c]

woooo, people are actually sticking up for loghain

[Herr Uhl]

alex90c wrote...

woooo, people are actually sticking up for loghain

Have you ever visited the DAO forums? When I stopped visiting it was roughly a third shirtless pics of Alistar, a third Morrigan stalking and the last third was Loghain ******.

[Pzykozis]

I'd rather not, I'd prefer the antagonist to make sense for once .

[Commander Kurt]

A few things doesn't add up in my mind. The whole argument that Loghain quit the field to protect Ferelden (save a force to fight another day) requires you to accept that the battle is impossible to win. But how is this possible?

Would Duncan sacrifice every warden in Ferelden just to stay friends with the king? To what end? And why is Loghain simply not refusing? He strikes me as the type of man who would fight for what he believes, and he sacrificed an army at Ostagar rather than put his foot down.

I guess there is the explanation that it wasn't until the battle had started that Loghain realized that there was no hope. But if so, what does this have to do with the wardens? Why blame them? In the landsmeet when he adresses the nobles after ostagar, he does say that the darkspawn "incursion" must be dealt with, but when questioned about his intentions he states that he has done what he must to secure Fereldens independence. He also adresses the fact that Orlais might take advantage right from the start, and that the darkspawn should be fought "sensibly".

What does this mean? Bigger force to wipe them out with lesser casualties? Smaller force to save some strenght for when Orlais comes knocking?

If bigger, is it then not moronic to let an entire army perish at ostagar?
If smaller, is it then not moronic to let an entire army perish at ostagar?

Why did he let it happen? I get that he wanted Cailan dead, but he poisoned Eamon when he needed him out of the picture. Why sacrifice the army?

He just seems like a moron to me, however I try to look at it.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Based on the hearsay of apparently one elf whose relatives might not have actually been sick or just healed on their own.

Not just her, as has been mentioned repeatedly. You can talk to actual sick elves strewn about the Alienage, lending credence to the notion of there being some sort of sickness going around. I even think they talk about the sickness. Valendrian even confirms it by saying "We'll deal with this as we've always dealt with these things".

Now given the crummy conditions of the Alienage in general it could just be a sickness common in there due to its unsanitary conditions.

But it could also mean there was a sickness going around.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

Based on the hearsay of apparently one elf whose relatives might not have actually been sick or just healed on their own.

Not just her, as has been mentioned repeatedly. You can talk to actual sick elves strewn about the Alienage, lending credence to the notion of there being some sort of sickness going around. I even think they talk about the sickness. Valendrian even confirms it by saying "We'll deal with this as we've always dealt with these things".

Now given the crummy conditions of the Alienage in general it could just be a sickness common in there due to its unsanitary conditions.

But it could also mean there was a sickness going around.

He isn't disputing that people were sick, he is disputing if the relatives of the elf were cured.

Edit: Don't recall much about it, could that person claiming they cured his family have been a Tevinter plant?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 04 janvier 2013 - 12:01 .

[Wulfram]

I don't recall any sick elves being returned healthy. My understanding was that the Tevinter's spell was protection not cure, with the actually sick being taken away to "quarantine".

Whether the protection worked is unclear - Wynne and Morrigan both cast some doubt on it, but there is a fair case that the Tevinters themselves are willing to go there, which suggests they have some sort of working protection. And presumably if someone did get sick who had had the protection spell cast on them, that would have been noticed.

[Pzykozis]

I thought it was pretty apparent that the situation (illness) was either caused by or exacerbated by the Tevinters in order to spirit people away? Strange that, the country known for blood magic which everyone blames for most evils randomly appear and instead of people being all mistrustful clearly the blood mages are there to heal everyo- d'oh.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Which, like much of Loghain's character, doesn't make any sense. Why does Loghain suddenly see this resembance now and not before? Where is this epiphany coming from? If the Warden has already won the respect of the Landsmeet, then why does it take a duel to make Loghain "see the light", as it were?

Because even an Orlesian can manipulate people? Because Maric had a sort of natural charisma and strength in spirit/determination that was evident in how he fought against the Orlesians -- something one could claim is analogous to fighting Loghain for the Warden?

Because he says that for the longest time, he thought you were an untested child wanting to play at war and you being able to defeat him, a seasoned general, shows that you have what it takes to lead an army?

But the ability to defeat an old man in a duel is not any indication of one's ability to command an army.

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Except that the plague is and always was a lie.

Last I checked, Loghain didn't provide any troops, money, or any resources that could be said to be the profit from selling elves into slavery. The Warden raised the vast majority of the fighting force by himself.

No it's not.  People actually are sick and dying, and one of the women tells Shianni that the Tevinters healed her relative.  I take it that this was part of the bargain, i.e. that they heal people and get to take their pick as slaves.  And several dialogue lines say that Loghain is paying for his troops using the earnings.

His troops should already be well-armed, they lost nothing at Ostagar.