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[KnightofPhoenix]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I thought it was Loghain who was responsible the strategy used at Ostagar and that Cailan was just following Loghain's battle plan?

What's more likely is that bioware knows **** about warfare and thought a charge would bring a great cinematic effect.

But in-game, it's hard to believe that Loghain, who everyone thinks is a military prodigy and with good reason, would make such an amateurish mistake.
Other than bad writing, the only plausible explanation is that Cailan was the one who ordered the charge.

[Pzykozis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I thought it was Loghain who was responsible the strategy used at Ostagar and that Cailan was just following Loghain's battle plan?

What's more likely is that bioware knows **** about warfare and thought a charge would bring a great cinematic effect.

But in-game, it's hard to believe that Loghain, who everyone thinks is a military prodigy and with good reason, would make such an amateurish mistake.
Other than bad writing, the only plausible explanation is that Cailan was the one who ordered the charge.

To be fair he should have been far far further into the valley anyway so the archers could've fired down on the funneled darkspawn aswell as adding impediment to the darkspawn advance... but... well yeah.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I thought it was Loghain who was responsible the strategy used at Ostagar and that Cailan was just following Loghain's battle plan?

What's more likely is that bioware knows **** about warfare and thought a charge would bring a great cinematic effect.

But in-game, it's hard to believe that Loghain, who everyone thinks is a military prodigy and with good reason, would make such an amateurish mistake.
Other than bad writing, the only plausible explanation is that Cailan was the one who ordered the charge.

That's how I see it. We see him giving the order. Even looking fairly uncertain before. Made me FACEPALM.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Loghain has a sizeable enough army that Eamon chooses a political showdown versus a military confrontation.

He never, ever says the darkspawn aren't a threat. He doesn't believe it's a Blight, at least until the endgame. But he certainly agrees that they're a threat, hence why he tries to rally the rest of the country to fight them.

The game doesn't do a great job of presenting the Orlesian threat in proper context. Only thirty years on and you see very few signs of how brutal the occupation and how unlikely Ferelden's victory was. You'd have to read codex to find references to Orlais' history of using disasters to grab territory.  

True, Orlais used the Third Blight to occupy Nevarra, which they were able to do because they were "aiding" them against the Blight. It's reasonable for Loghain to think that Orlais - a nation with a history of conquering other nations since its inception - might attempt the same against Ferelden, a nation it conquered for a century and has only been free from Orlesian rule for a few decades.

Addai67 wrote...

Finally I don't think many people grasp that by any normal measure, four legions (twelve divisions, as Riordan says) of heavy cavalry is a massive force- and this before anyone knew for sure they had a Blight. Finally, Return to Ostagar and hints in DA2 suggest that Orlais indeed did have designs on Ferelden. So those people saying that Loghain was mad are adopting a very breezy attitude toward Orlais that does have support in the game, but isn't the only way of looking at the facts on the ground.

Wynne never contests Loghain's claim in RtO that Orlais would have effectively controlled Ferelden through the marriage between Celene and Cailan, and it seems apparent in "King Alistair" that some Orlesian nobles want to conquer Ferelden again. It seems like Loghain was right to be wary about Orlais.

[Dorrieb]

Atakuma wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I understand Loghain's motivations perfectly well. I doubt that anyone could understand his actions. There is no logic behind them to understand. Declaring himself regent was stupid, poisoning Eamon was stupid and despicable, his promotion of Howe was stupid, his deal with Uldred was stupid, his decision to try and assassinate the Wardens was stupid, selling the elves into slavery was stupid and unforgiveable. Every single thing he does is stupid. These are not the actions of a tactical genius, these are the actions of a raving, drooling madman.

I dunno that I would go quite that far. I think that his actions are understandable if you look at the situation from his point of view and understand that he is a ruthless, cruel man who will stop at nothing to achieve his goals (which fits my definition of 'evil', but apparently not everyone thinks so).

Of course we know that he was wrong, while being megalomaniacally certain that he was in the right, and in that sense you could certainly call him 'mad', but hardly drooling or stupid.

I think letting your own army get decimated by a horde of evil creatures while claiming they aren't a threat is quite idiotic.

Well yeah, there's that.

[Who is that Masked Man]

No one's "glossing over" anything.  It is a horrific solution to a problem that the Fereldan government helped create by neglect and oppression.  There's nothing good about it.  However it does have bleak logic.  No doubt tax collection has been completely disrupted, and Howe is stealing public funds for his own coffers, so there's nothing left to pay the army.  Troops have to be fed, equipped and paid, so you don't keep an army together just on good will.  Those troops are part of the force that eventually defeats the Blight.

Plenty of Loghain supporters are trying to "gloss over" the illegal sale of Ferelden citizens into slavery in this very thread.

The Ethereal Writer Redux: Despite what you like to imagine, in the actual game Loghain does not in fact rescue the elves being sold into slavery. A City Elf Warden is told outright that Valendrian has already been shipped to Tevinter, as has Velora, Soris's fiance. There is zero evidence of any rescue attempt on Loghain's part.

Addai67: There is no evidence that the Tevinter mages curing  sick elves was in any way part of Loghain's deal with the slavers. There is some question as to whether the Tevinter mages were really "curing" anyone at all, since we only see healthy elves in their quarantine. And while both Loghain and Ser Cauthrien try to justify selling the elves into slavery, neither of them claim that they were trying to get sick elves cured as part of the deal. Neither does Caladrius.

As for the argument that Loghain "had" to sell the elves in order to fund the army, no one in the actual game agrees with that argument aside from Loghain and Ser Cauthrien... and even Ser Cauthrien can be lead to admit that Loghain was in the wrong about pretty much everything he's accused of. So, there really is no reason to uncritically accept the argument that selling elves into slavery was vitally necessary in order to fund the army. Can we not accept that maybe... possibly... Loghain could have found a better way to fund the army, rather than deciding to write off the alienage as expendable?

I mean, why not accept that what Loghain did to the elves was indefensible? Loghain might not be a cartoonish mustache-twirling villain, but that doesn't mean that everything he did can be justified.

[LobselVith8]

Dorrieb wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I think letting your own army get decimated by a horde of evil creatures while claiming they aren't a threat is quite idiotic. 

Well yeah, there's that. 

Loghain acknowledges that the darkspawn are a threat, but he doesn't think that it's a "true Blight" at that point in the story. He doesn't have the knowledge about the Archdemon that the Grey Wardens do (via the taint).

[Herr Uhl]

Persephone wrote...

That's how I see it. We see him giving the order. Even looking fairly uncertain before. Made me FACEPALM.

Since I see so many people saying that Loghain was justified in leaving due to numbers, maybe the charge could be seen as an attempt at retreating.

How dare he look uncertain when faced with overwhelming numbers though, what a whimp.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 04 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[The Hierophant]

Did anyone else notice that the Darkspawn horde only fielded catapults at Cailan's final battle, as most of Ostagar's structure showed no signs of projectile impacts despite there being a couple of battles previously?

[Herr Uhl]

The Hierophant wrote...

Did anyone else notice that the Darkspawn horde only fielded catapults at Cailan's final battle, as most of Ostagar's structure showed no signs of projectile impacts despite there being a couple of battles previously?

The other battles were clear victories, at least that is what I take from the lackadaisical attitude of Cailan.

[Addai]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...
Plenty of Loghain supporters are trying to "gloss over" the illegal sale of Ferelden citizens into slavery in this very thread.

Explaining the rationale is not "glossing over."  I could as easily say that Loghain detractors are glossing over anything that makes his actions look understandable and rational.  I don't say that, BTW- because that would be patronizing.

As for the argument that Loghain "had" to sell the elves in order to fund the army, no one in the actual game agrees with that argument aside from Loghain and Ser Cauthrien...

Caladrius says something to the effect that since Loghain has his troops now, he'll be ending their arrangement soon anyway.

and even Ser Cauthrien can be lead to admit that Loghain was in the wrong about pretty much everything he's accused of.

As does Loghain.  He several times accepts culpability, even going too far IMO when he says "all this can be rightly called my fault."  So?

So, there really is no reason to uncritically accept the argument that selling elves into slavery was vitally necessary in order to fund the army. Can we not accept that maybe... possibly... Loghain could have found a better way to fund the army, rather than deciding to write off the alienage as expendable?

What would you suggest?  I suppose he should put in an application for credit at the First Bank of Par Vollen,  or apply to the Free Marches which are already flooded with Fereldan refugees.  I'm sure that would go over very well.

edit- BTW it is true that we don't know for a fact that the Tevinters were healing elves.  I said that I supposed that was part of the arrangement, not that I knew it was.  They obviously aren't concerned about getting sick or importing sickness.  The woman who says her relative was healed might have been describing a placebo effect.  But anyway it makes sense that if you have a disease-ridden population who aren't in a position to fight, and you need to sell slaves to fund your army, you'd pick that group to sell off rather than say the poor humans who can be conscripted as soldiers.  It is similar to the decision to burn Amaranthine- a horrible choice, but defensible if you consider the population lost anyway and potential disease carriers.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 10:02 .

[The Hierophant]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Did anyone else notice that the Darkspawn horde only fielded catapults at Cailan's final battle, as most of Ostagar's structure showed no signs of projectile impacts despite there being a couple of battles previously?

The other battles were clear victories, at least that is what I take from the lackadaisical attitude of Cailan.

If the Darkspawn had catapults in any of the previous battles shouldn't Ostagar have craters similar to the ones where the destroyed  ballistas used to be or did Loghain use tactics that prevented the Darkspwan from using them?

But if it's the latter how did the Grey Wardens, Loghain's, and Cailan's forces intercept the catapults before they were used as they had no cavalry?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 janvier 2013 - 09:47 .

[Persephone]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's how I see it. We see him giving the order. Even looking fairly uncertain before. Made me FACEPALM.

Since I see so many people saying that Loghain was justified in leaving due to numbers, maybe the charge could be seen as an attempt at retreating.

How dare he look uncertain when faced with overwhelming numbers though, what a whimp.

You don't retreat in a frontal assault. Not when the path behind you is CLEAR.

[Herr Uhl]

Persephone wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's how I see it. We see him giving the order. Even looking fairly uncertain before. Made me FACEPALM.

Since I see so many people saying that Loghain was justified in leaving due to numbers, maybe the charge could be seen as an attempt at retreating.

How dare he look uncertain when faced with overwhelming numbers though, what a whimp.

You don't retreat in a frontal assault. Not when the path behind you is CLEAR.

We are not sure where that road ends up. They may just get backed up against a wall.

Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

[HiroVoid]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

Aside from just saying that to annoy Loghain, it is possible he may have wanted Orlesian troops nearby to get more Fereldens in a friendly position with them when he went to marry Celene.

[The Hierophant]

HiroVoid wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

Aside from just saying that to annoy Loghain, it is possible he may have wanted Orlesian troops nearby to get more Fereldens in a friendly position with them when he went to marry Celene.

It sounds like he planned to hold them at knife point as he divorce Anora, propose to Celene, and then marry her within an hour.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 janvier 2013 - 10:56 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

Loghain has a sizeable enough army that Eamon chooses a political showdown versus a military confrontation.

That's not why Eamon chooses the Landsmeet. He does it because an actual civil war would bloody Ferelden so much as to make it imposible to stop the Blight. He straight up tells you this when you ask why you have to go along with the Landsmeet.

He never, ever says the darkspawn aren't a threat. He doesn't believe it's a Blight, at least until the endgame. But he certainly agrees that they're a threat, hence why he tries to rally the rest of the country to fight them.

He tells Howe directly that the Blight isn't to be dealt with until he's handled the civil war, militarily. Howe even quests if there is enough military might left in Ferelde to do so. Loghain dismisses him.

The game doesn't do a great job of presenting the Orlesian threat in proper context. Only thirty years on and you see very few signs of how brutal the occupation and how unlikely Ferelden's victory was. You'd have to read codex to find references to Orlais' history of using disasters to grab territory. Finally I don't think many people grasp that by any normal measure, four legions (twelve divisions, as Riordan says) of heavy cavalry is a massive force- and this before anyone knew for sure they had a Blight. Finally, Return to Ostagar and hints in DA2 suggest that Orlais indeed did have designs on Ferelden. So those people saying that Loghain was mad are adopting a very breezy attitude toward Orlais that does have support in the game, but isn't the only way of looking at the facts on the ground.

The Wardens knew it was a blight, because they could sense the archdemon, and we have no idea if other Wardens in Orlais are less tight-lipped than Duncan was. It may be quite simply that if the Wardens said Blight, Orlais listened.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But in-game, it's hard to believe that Loghain, who everyone thinks is a military prodigy and with good reason, would make such an amateurish mistake.
Other than bad writing, the only plausible explanation is that Cailan was the one who ordered the charge.

It makes perfect sense if the plot was that Loghain planned from the start to kill of Cailan. Tell him to charge like a moron sorrounded by all of his loyalists, and problem solved.

And moreover, Loghain proves over and over again he's an idiot, in-game.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Explaining the rationale is not "glossing over."  I could as easily say that Loghain detractors are glossing over anything that makes his actions look understandable and rational.  I don't say that, BTW- because that would be patronizing.

This isn't pointed at you, but for reference, here is one quote on the slavery business:

Eh, well, things happen. And really, I don't have a lot of sympathy for
alienage elves. Sorry I'm not sorry. If you or dear old dad didn't like
alienage life so much then maybe you should leave. Maybe the elves
should demand a rightful position in the rest of Ferelden society. But
they don't. I'm not going all Ayn Rand here, but if you want a better
life then you do what you can to make it better or you will get taken
advantage of. The elves were in a position to be taken advantage of
because they spent generations letting it happen.

If this isn't glossing over, I don't know what is.

Caladrius says something to the effect that since Loghain has his troops now, he'll be ending their arrangement soon anyway.

Caladrius was trying to get you to not drive a spike through his throat.

BTW it is true that we don't know for a fact that the Tevinters were healing elves.  I said that I supposed that was part of the arrangement, not that I knew it was.  They obviously aren't concerned about getting sick or importing sickness.  The woman who says her relative was healed might have been describing a placebo effect.  But anyway it makes sense that if you have a disease-ridden population who aren't in a position to fight, and you need to sell slaves to fund your army, you'd pick that group to sell off rather than say the poor humans who can be conscripted as soldiers.  It is similar to the decision to burn Amaranthine- a horrible choice, but defensible if you consider the population lost anyway and potential disease carriers.

There's no evidence the Tevinters can heal the elves. More importantly, healthy elves are as good cannon fodder as any, and Loghain's entire justification is that during an attack on Denerim the alienage would not be able to stand, which it instead absolutely and totally does! It's actually the only part of Denerim that you encounter that is fighting. Loghain was so wrong about this that it's almost farcial.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

Waiting for Eamon means abandoning Ostagar, and allowing the Darkspawn horde to reinforce.  Probably not worth it for the troops of a single Arling, when you've got all 3 of the traditional Teyrnirs present in your army.

Whereas strong Orlesian forces might be enough to make an actual difference, so waiting for them would actually make sense.

WTF Loghain?

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 janvier 2013 - 10:37 .

[The Hierophant]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

Waiting for Eamon means abandoning Ostagar, and allowing the Darkspawn horde to reinforce.  Probably not worth it for the troops of a single Arling, when you've got all 3 of the traditional Teyrnirs present in your army.

Whereas strong Orlesian forces might be enough to make an actual difference, so waiting for them would actually make sense.

WTF Loghain?

Redcliffe is closer to Ostagar than any of the borders between Ferelden, and Orlais so the wait for the Orlesians would've taken longer, and staying at Ostagar means that the Darkspawn would still outmaneuver Cailan's forces thanks to the sub levels of Ishal.

The army at Ostagar should've packed up, and left when they had the chance.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
If this isn't glossing over, I don't know what is.

Fine, then people should quote who they actually mean rather than generalizing.

Caladrius was trying to get you to not drive a spike through his throat.

How does that have anything to do with him telling you that Loghain paid for his troops already?  He's explaining why they knew their arrangement was always going to be temporary.

There's no evidence the Tevinters can heal the elves.

Besides the fact that one claims that people are being healed and the Tevinters obviously aren't concerned about sickness.

More importantly, healthy elves are as good cannon fodder as any, and Loghain's entire justification is that during an attack on Denerim the alienage would not be able to stand, which it instead absolutely and totally does! It's actually the only part of Denerim that you encounter that is fighting. Loghain was so wrong about this that it's almost farcial.

Shianni and a few bowmen are there- where else are they going to go?- and they only fight if you persuade them to, and only win if you're there to lead the battle.  There are people fighting at the gates, and you see few people in Fort Drakon because there are a lot of soldiers' corpses scattered around.  Who's that poor slob being chewed on in the archdemon cutscene as you dash onto the roof?

Elves haven't been allowed to bear arms for thirty years, so they're not as good cannon fodder.  Loghain was known for leading the Night Elves during the rebellion, but he already has enough trouble on his hands than introducing plague-ridden elves to fight alongside humans who hate and mistrust them.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:00 .

[Costin_Razvan]

but he already has enough trouble on his hands than introducing plague-ridden elves to fight alongside humans who hate and mistrust them.

He could say goodbye to a good chunk of his army's morale and discipline if he drafted the elves into the army.

Also the reason Loghain sold them into slavery was to fund his army, so he couldn't afford to draft the elves when he already had logistical issues.