597 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
That's not why Eamon chooses the Landsmeet. He does it because an actual civil war would bloody Ferelden so much as to make it imposible to stop the Blight. He straight up tells you this when you ask why you have to go along with the Landsmeet.

Uh... right.  So you're basically saying the same thing I am.  Loghain has enough of an army that they can't afford to meet him on a battlefield.

He tells Howe directly that the Blight isn't to be dealt with until he's handled the civil war, militarily. Howe even quests if there is enough military might left in Ferelde to do so. Loghain dismisses him.

Because he knows he can't beat the darkspawn with only the forces he had at Ostagar.  Why would he even be trying to get more troops if he didn't think the darkspawn were a threat?  Use a bit of logic here.

The Wardens knew it was a blight, because they could sense the archdemon, and we have no idea if other Wardens in Orlais are less tight-lipped than Duncan was. It may be quite simply that if the Wardens said Blight, Orlais listened.

Even Cailan, who trusts the Wardens blindly, says "I'm not even sure this is a true Blight."  Why should Loghain take their word?  The Wardens are all hush hush about their abilities and he has ample reason to distrust them from past shenanigans.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You know Addai I am chuckling quite a bit at you of all people defending Loghain so strongly.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:10 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You know Addai I am chuckling quite a bit at you of all people defending Loghain so strongly.

Sorry couldn't resist.

I would like to think I was always a fair and pragmatic Loghain hater, but that's probably not true. 

I do recall saying, somewhere along my road to defeat, that his selling elves into slavery was the reason why I still couldn't forgive him.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:19 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
How does that have anything to do with him telling you that Loghain paid for his troops already?  He's explaining why they knew their arrangement was always going to be temporary.

Because he could be completely full of it. He just saw a bunch of armed mages/warriors storm through his keep and show up ready to stab him in the throat. The plan might well have originally been to take every single elf into slavery, but at that point it just stops being feasible.

Besides the fact that one claims that people are being healed and the Tevinters obviously aren't concerned about sickness.

Which is as easily explained by there not being a real sickness. Your father in the CE origin was not sick at all, but he's taken anyway. Shianni does quite a good job calling BS on the entire thing.

Shianni and a few bowmen are there- where else are they going to go?- and they only fight if you persuade them to, and only win if you're there to lead the battle.  There are people fighting at the gates, and you see few people in Fort Drakon because there are a lot of soldiers' corpses scattered around.  Who's that poor slob being chewed on in the archdemon cutscene as you dash onto the roof?

So? Loghain insists that the alienage can't hold. But it does. That's his whole argument for selling them into slavery - there is no means to defend them, they're lost, so he might as well make them useful. Well, as is often the case in military matters, it turns out that Loghain is just plain wrong.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Uh... right.  So you're basically saying the same thing I am.  Loghain has enough of an army that they can't afford to meet him on a battlefield.

What? No. How is that even close to what I'm saying?

You're trying to imply that Loghain has some kind of military advantage - but that need not be the case at all. Eamon's statements are equally consistent with the rebels having either the upper hand or there being a total stalemate.

Because he knows he can't beat the darkspawn with only the forces he had at Ostagar.  Why would he even be trying to get more troops if he didn't think the darkspawn were a threat?  Use a bit of logic here.

Because he has a civil war to put down, in case you missed that part of the game.

Even Cailan, who trusts the Wardens blindly, says "I'm not even sure this is a true Blight."  Why should Loghain take their word?  The Wardens are all hush hush about their abilities and he has ample reason to distrust them from past shenanigans.

Duncan was hush about with Loghain and Cailan. But we have no idea what the situation was like in Orlais. Not to mention that if Orlais wanted to invade with their legions, when Loghain tells them off and the border, they could have easily ignored him and invaded anyway.

That Orlais actually turns its entire army around is a pretty good sign that they weren't intended to fight a war with Ferelden.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
Because he could be completely full of it. He just saw a bunch of armed mages/warriors storm through his keep and show up ready to stab him in the throat. The plan might well have originally been to take every single elf into slavery, but at that point it just stops being feasible.

Well anything's possible.  So Loghain is just evil?  He invited foreigners into Ferelden to buy up the elves to be genre savvy?  Or is it not logical that possibly, since Loghain does in fact have an army and Howe is in fact stealing money from the treasury and the country is in fact at war and countries at war tend to need funds in a hurry, that he's actually selling elves to Tevinter as a last resort for funding his army?  Which one is more plausible?

Which is as easily explained by there not being a real sickness. Your father in the CE origin was not sick at all, but he's taken anyway. Shianni does quite a good job calling BS on the entire thing.

So what is your explanation for why there are NPCs strewn around the alienage called Sick Elf, who aren't there in the city elf origin?  Valendrian, when asked about the plague, says they'll deal with it as they've dealt with such epidemics before.  He doesn't ask "what plague?"

Are you even reading earlier replies to these same questions?

So? Loghain insists that the alienage can't hold. But it does. That's his whole argument for selling them into slavery - there is no means to defend them, they're lost, so he might as well make them useful. Well, as is often the case in military matters, it turns out that Loghain is just plain wrong.

He is wrong, that's true.  The statement is also silly since the alienage is smack dab in the middle of the city rather than at a gate or some vulnerable point.  However it's also not unreasonable to think that the elves there were helpless.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:28 .

[Persephone]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But in-game, it's hard to believe that Loghain, who everyone thinks is a military prodigy and with good reason, would make such an amateurish mistake.
Other than bad writing, the only plausible explanation is that Cailan was the one who ordered the charge.

It makes perfect sense if the plot was that Loghain planned from the start to kill of Cailan. Tell him to charge like a moron sorrounded by all of his loyalists, and problem solved.

If it was, then why does he urge Cailan again and again to stay away from the front lines? Had he wanted to kill the idiot, he would have said nothing about that or, if he were less subtle, he'd have urged him on to do just that.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

Waiting for Eamon means abandoning Ostagar, and allowing the Darkspawn horde to reinforce.  Probably not worth it for the troops of a single Arling, when you've got all 3 of the traditional Teyrnirs present in your army.

Whereas strong Orlesian forces might be enough to make an actual difference, so waiting for them would actually make sense.

WTF Loghain?

Er, no, it doesn't mean abandoning Ostagar at all.

Except it would take the Orlesians MUCH LONGER to actually get to Ostagar. So I don't see any merit in this idea. Never mind that inviting a huge army of your former oppressors into your country is idiocy. Dangerous idiocy. The Orlesians have already taken over another country in Thedas after "helping" against a Blight, just fyi.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
What? No. How is that even close to what I'm saying?

You're trying to imply that Loghain has some kind of military advantage - but that need not be the case at all. Eamon's statements are equally consistent with the rebels having either the upper hand or there being a total stalemate.

No I'm not.  I'm arguing that Loghain in fact has an army, as support for the idea that he needed funds to feed and equip them.  I think you just haven't been following the train of conversation.

Because he has a civil war to put down, in case you missed that part of the game.

... which started when he demanded troops to fight the darkspawn.  Around the circle goes.

Duncan was hush about with Loghain and Cailan. But we have no idea what the situation was like in Orlais. Not to mention that if Orlais wanted to invade with their legions, when Loghain tells them off and the border, they could have easily ignored him and invaded anyway.

That Orlais actually turns its entire army around is a pretty good sign that they weren't intended to fight a war with Ferelden.

The Orlesians who aren't even on the scene know more about the Blight than the Fereldans do?  Alistair doesn't say until late in the game "now we know for sure that it's a true Blight."  Duncan is convinced, but obviously not enough to pass on his conviction even to Cailan.  As for the Orlesians not invading, that is hindsight and there's no way you can say they didn't stop because Loghain was alive and had his army intact.  They may have been counting on a de facto occupation accompanied by a royal wedding.

[Who is that Masked Man]

In my opinion, making up arguments to support Loghain's slave-selling that are not supported by direct evidence in the game is, in fact, "glossing over" what actually happened.

By saying that you suppose the deal involved actually healing the sick, when there is no proof of that, you are attributing additional sympathetic motives to Loghain that are not referenced in any way in the actual game. You are, in effect, offering imaginary evidence to make Loghain's actions look better. 

That's as if I said I supposed that Loghain sold the elves into slavery partly out of revenge for them rebelling against his buddy, Arl Howe. Sure, it sounds like it might make some kind of sense (from an anti-Loghain perspective), but there's no actual direct evidence to support it. Just speculation that happens to serve my own argument.

THAT would be the equivalent, here.

Caladrius says something to the effect that since Loghain has his troops now, he'll be ending their arrangement soon anyway.

That isn't an argument that Loghain had to sell the elves to fund his army. I'm not denying that what Loghain did wasn't practical, only that it wasn't necessary, the way that some of Loghain's defenders seem to be insisting that it was.

As does Loghain.  He several times accepts culpability, even going too far IMO when he says "all this can be rightly called my fault."  So?

So, yeah. Loghain admits culpability. And yet some Loghain apologists continue to argue that, no no, Loghain was totally right about everything! Always!

My point is, since even Loghain accepts that he was (for the sake of argument, let's say "partly") in the wrong, maybe some of his worst decisions don't actually need defending.

What would you suggest?  I suppose he should put in an application for credit at the First Bank of Par Vollen,  or apply to the Free Marches which are already flooded with Fereldan refugees.  I'm sure that would go over very well.

He could...

*Collect emergency taxes from the lands and businesses already under his control.

*Seize the wealth and property of the lords he's defeated in the civil war. Offer amnesty to whatever lords still fighting him will contribute money and troops for the war effort.

* Sell his own lands and property, and donate the proceeds to the royal treasury. Encourage his loyal followers to do the same.

*Inform the troops that since the situation is desperate and they are fighting for their lives and the lives of their families, some of their pay will have to be withheld until after the darkspawn are defeated.

*Instead of selling healthy elves into slavery, recruit them into the Ferelden army.

*Cut a deal with Wade and Herren and the other Denerim blacksmiths. Weapons now, money later.

*Since you yourself speculate that Howe is stealing public funds, he could arrest Arl Howe and take his lands and property. Also get the money back. Not much of anyone would object, since everyone hates Howe anyway.

Oh, sure, there are obviously problems that can result from any of my proposed solutions. But the "let's sell the elves" thing didn't work out all that great either, given that Loghain's enemies quickly sieze on it as evidence to use against him at the Landsmeet.

And that isn't even getting into the choices Loghain made that lead to Ferelden running out of money in the first place. 

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 04 janvier 2013 - 11:56 .

[Plaintiff]

alex90c wrote...

Cailan probably knows a lot about military tactics.

Anora claims to have ruled Ferelden as the "brains" behind Cailan. A claim for which there is no evidence.

lol

so it's ok for you to make claims without evidence but nobody else can? lololol

Cailan finds strategy boring, that does not make him ignorant of it.

Cailan, being a prince, has had the best education the country can provide in almost every subject. So yes, it is more than likely that he is knowledgeable about military tactics.

He is merely inexperienced. He's never fought a war before. Any other man his age, with his job, would be in the exact same position. That doesn't make Cailan stupid.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:31 .

[Addai]

@ Masked Man:  Inferences aid interpretation. You can argue about whether they're good or bad inferences, whether they're consistent or logical, but absent any contradictory information and since I wasn't claiming to be stating a fact, my interpretation is as valid to discussion as yours is.

The Landsmeet doesn't care at all about the elves. One guy tut tuts about it, but that dialogue line doesn't change the vote at all. Sorry, no one cares about the elves, and that is part of the point. It doesn't make it right, but it does lend to why the Tevinter solution was pragmatic and not just evil for the lulz.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:07 .

[Plaintiff]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

[Wulfram]

You get +1 votes in the landsmeet for mentioning the elves. It's as significant as bringing up the blight, or successfully casting doubt on Loghain's actions at Ostagar, though less significant than Howe, or the attempt on Arl Eamon.

Modifié par Wulfram, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:24 .

[Plaintiff]

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

Waiting for Eamon means abandoning Ostagar, and allowing the Darkspawn horde to reinforce.  Probably not worth it for the troops of a single Arling, when you've got all 3 of the traditional Teyrnirs present in your army.

Whereas strong Orlesian forces might be enough to make an actual difference, so waiting for them would actually make sense.

WTF Loghain?

Er, no, it doesn't mean abandoning Ostagar at all.

Except it would take the Orlesians MUCH LONGER to actually get to Ostagar. So I don't see any merit in this idea. Never mind that inviting a huge army of your former oppressors into your country is idiocy. Dangerous idiocy. The Orlesians have already taken over another country in Thedas after "helping" against a Blight, just fyi.

Blights are centuries apart. What Orlais did half a millenium ago is not relevent to anything that may happen now or in the future.

Loghain and his boot-licking toadies are the only ones who believe that an Orlesian invasion is likely, let alone imminent. And as it turns out, they were completely wrong. Almost a decade later, and no such invasion has occured. Empress Celene is, in fact, according to the only person we know who has had any contact with her, actively opposed to invasion and is co-operating with King Alistair.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:17 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

Duncan brings up Eamon's reinforces, and Cailan jokingly dismisses the help they could provide by stating that they won all the previous battles, and the next will be same. 

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

Duncan brings up Eamon's reinforces, and Cailan jokingly dismisses the help they could provide by stating that they won all the previous battles, and the next will be same. 

Which, again, proves nothing except that Cailan is feeling confident, or possibly pretending to be confident.

Prove that Cailan refused Eamon's help. Don't give me straw-clutching theories about the hidden meaning behind Cailan's laugh or the position of his left foot or what-the-****-ever. Show me the line where he explicitly says "I refuse Eamon's help".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:28 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...
Blights are centuries apart. What Orlais did half a millenium ago is not relevent to anything that may happen now or in the future.

History repeats itself like Orlais's imperialistic tendencies towards it's neighbors.

Loghain and his boot-licking toadies are the only ones who believe that an Orlesian invasion is likely, let alone imminent. And as it turns out, they were completely wrong. Almost a decade later, and no such invasion has occured. Empress Celene is, in fact, according to the only person we know who has had any contact with her, actively opposed to invasion and is co-operating with King Alistair.

The only reason an invasion didn't occur is because Orlais didn't have a foothold in the country thanks to Loghain's paranoia, and Celene is only co-operating with Alistair due to the threat of her losing her throne.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 janvier 2013 - 12:29 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

Duncan brings up Eamon's reinforces, and Cailan jokingly dismisses the help they could provide by stating that they won all the previous battles, and the next will be same. 

Which, again, proves nothing except that Cailan is feeling confident, or possibly pretending to be confident.

Prove that Cailan refused Eamon's help. Don't give me straw-clutching theories about the hidden meaning behind Cailan's laugh or the position of his left foot or what-the-****-ever. Show me the line where he explicitly says "I refuse Eamon's help".

It proves he's overconfident , and arrogant.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

Duncan brings up Eamon's reinforces, and Cailan jokingly dismisses the help they could provide by stating that they won all the previous battles, and the next will be same. 

Which, again, proves nothing except that Cailan is feeling confident, or possibly pretending to be confident.

Prove that Cailan refused Eamon's help. Don't give me straw-clutching theories about the hidden meaning behind Cailan's laugh or the position of his left foot or what-the-****-ever. Show me the line where he explicitly says "I refuse Eamon's help".

It proves he's overconfident , and arrogant.

"Loghain is subtle and complex, and anything that says otherwise is bad writing, but Cailan just blurts out exactly what he means all of the time."

It proves nothing about anything. Your warden is not a mind-reader. We will never know Cailan's true feelings about the situation.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
History repeats itself like Orlais's imperialistic tendencies towards it's neighbors.

Except actually, history doesn't repeat itself most of the time. As I said, in the real world, we do not blacklist countries because of past wars. Leaderships change, countries change. Thirty years is more than enough time, let alone thirty decades. Rome is no longer a world-spanning Empire, neither is Britain. Prove that Orlais is exactly the same as it was three decades ago, when it was ruled by a completely different person.

The only reason an invasion didn't occur is because Orlais didn't have a foothold in the country thanks to Loghain's paranoia, and Celene is only co-operating with Alistair due to the threat of her losing her throne.

Or Celene genuinely wants peace, genuinely liked Cailan, and genuinely likes Alistair now.

Prove that she doesn't.

[Wulfram]

If Orlais wanted to invade, then spending their soldiers fighting the blight doesn't seem like a great move. They'll be in a better situation if they sit back, let Fereldan exhaust itself fighting Darkspawn and then sweep in once it's all over.

Though Blighted Fereldan may be too diseased and starving to be worth conquering, I guess.

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The only reason an invasion didn't occur is because Orlais didn't have a foothold in the country thanks to Loghain's paranoia, and Celene is only co-operating with Alistair due to the threat of her losing her throne.

Or Celene genuinely wants peace, genuinely liked Cailan, and genuinely likes Alistair now.

Prove that she doesn't.

This would also be a reason that her throne is in danger. Not enough warmongering, landless nobles (from the Ferelden days) clamouring to get their birthright back etc.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

You get +1 votes in the landsmeet for mentioning the elves. It's as significant as bringing up the blight, or successfully casting doubt on Loghain's actions at Ostagar, though less significant than Howe, or the attempt on Arl Eamon.

I don't have the toolset to check, but thought I remembered from past discussions people saying that the elf dialogue line is vote neutral.