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[Persephone]

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah, sure. I bet his moaning about there being no Archdemon sightings is also just an innocent joke.

Seriously.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...
Loghain and his boot-licking toadies are the only ones who believe that an Orlesian invasion is likely, let alone imminent. And as it turns out, they were completely wrong. Almost a decade later, and no such invasion has occured. Empress Celene is, in fact, according to the only person we know who has had any contact with her, actively opposed to invasion and is co-operating with King Alistair.

All that means is that the cost-benefit ratio might have changed.  They may have believed it would be easy, a de facto occupation after the darkspawn threat was taken care of, and in anticipation of Celene marrying Cailan.  We know for sure that Celene had designs on Ferelden, she was just going about it more cannily than predecessors.

[Plaintiff]

Persephone wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Cailan gets a lot of abuse for being stupid, but fact stands as it is, no matter what he did in that situation, he was boned.

True, which is why Loghain didn't want to fight the battle to begin with, but Cailan insisted because he wanted his glorious battle.

Yap. I don't get Cailan as it is. He refuses Eamon's help because "Eamon's just in it for the glory", yet he suggests/baits Loghain with waiting for the Orlesian reinforcements? (Which are double the size of the army at the River Dane)

WTF Cailan?

At no point does Cailan refuse Eamon's help. The statement that Eamon is "in it for the glory" (an innocent joke), is indicative of nothing except that Cailan himself is in the mood to make a joke.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah, sure. I bet his moaning about there being no Archdemon sightings is also just an innocent joke.

Seriously.

You know, I've managed to go this entire thread without being sarcastic or snide, which is pretty impressive for me, but it seems like that's all I'm getting from you.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...
Except actually, history doesn't repeat itself most of the time. As I said, in the real world, we do not blacklist countries because of past wars. Leaderships change, countries change. Thirty years is more than enough time, let alone thirty decades. Rome is no longer a world-spanning Empire, neither is Britain. Prove that Orlais is exactly the same as it was three decades ago, when it was ruled by a completely different person.

Prove that countries that enter your territory to meet a military threat always go home when it's settled.  Then tell it to the Britons about the Saxons or the Roman governor of Africa about the Vandals, so we can hear them laughing from their graves.

Thirty years is not even one generation.  As we know now, Celene's hold on power is tenuous.  Even if she was all sweetness and light and good will (here I would suggest taking Morrigan's advice about the two things men always believe about women), if she loses power at home but her chevaliers are occupying Ferelden, is that going to matter?

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2013 - 01:20 .

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Loghain and his boot-licking toadies are the only ones who believe that an Orlesian invasion is likely, let alone imminent. And as it turns out, they were completely wrong. Almost a decade later, and no such invasion has occured. Empress Celene is, in fact, according to the only person we know who has had any contact with her, actively opposed to invasion and is co-operating with King Alistair.

All that means is that the cost-benefit ratio might have changed.  They may have believed it would be easy, a de facto occupation after the darkspawn threat was taken care of, and in anticipation of Celene marrying Cailan.  We know for sure that Celene had designs on Ferelden, she was just going about it more cannily than predecessors.

All we know "for sure" is that Celene wanted to marry Cailan. Anything beond that and we're just taking shots in the dark.

Your theory about her motives is not more valid than mine. I just want that to be acknowledged.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 janvier 2013 - 01:22 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Except actually, history doesn't repeat itself most of the time. As I said, in the real world, we do not blacklist countries because of past wars. Leaderships change, countries change. Thirty years is more than enough time, let alone thirty decades. Rome is no longer a world-spanning Empire, neither is Britain. Prove that Orlais is exactly the same as it was three decades ago, when it was ruled by a completely different person.

History repeats itself like Hitler having his forces invade Russia during it's winter. There's Russia's 10 year war in Afghanistan in the 80's, now the U.S. nearly reaching the same milestone as they fight remnants of the Mujahadeen that they had trained against the Russians. The Israeli, Palestinian conflict,  the Spanish, and Mongolian armadas being defeated by unpredictable weather, the spread of epidemics, your typical BSN thread dealing with mages, romances or the lack racial choices,  how EA eventually runs the companies it own's into the ground, Coca Cola changing it's formula, etc.

I see no mention of Orlais changing any of it's international poilicies in the lore provide a link please.

Or Celene genuinely wants peace, genuinely liked Cailan, and genuinely likes Alistair now.

Prove that she doesn't.

Want Peace? Sure, but excluding the letters at Ostagar as a marriage to Cailan would ensure that Orlais has control of the Ferelden throne, plus she has no respect for Cailan as she indirectly insulted him here. I doubt she genuinely likes any of them.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 janvier 2013 - 01:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Except actually, history doesn't repeat itself most of the time. As I said, in the real world, we do not blacklist countries because of past wars. Leaderships change, countries change. Thirty years is more than enough time, let alone thirty decades. Rome is no longer a world-spanning Empire, neither is Britain. Prove that Orlais is exactly the same as it was three decades ago, when it was ruled by a completely different person.

Prove that countries that enter your territory to meet a military threat always go home when it's settled.  Then tell it to the Britons about the Saxons or the Roman governor of Africa about the Vandals, so we can hear them laughing from their graves.

Thirty years is not even one generation.  As we know now, Celene's hold on power is tenuous.  Even if she was all sweetness and light and good will (here I would suggest taking Morrigan's advice about the two things men always believe about women), if she loses power at home but her chevaliers are occupying Ferelden, is that going to matter?

Thirty years was enough time for rational people to get over World War 2, and for less rational people to switch focus to the completely imaginary threat of Communism.

It's completely ironic that everyone who presumes to preach the "complexity" of Loghain to us lesser mortals manages to, in their defense of him, write off an entire country that we've never seen as the cradle of all that is evil and smells bad.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Well anything's possible.  So Loghain is just evil?

I think he doesn't value life. Whether or not that's heroic is a matter of debate. But my point wasn't that what Loghain was doing was wrong morally - it was that it wasn't justified tactically, at least, not based on what we see happen after the fact.

He invited foreigners into Ferelden to buy up the elves to be genre savvy?  Or is it not logical that possibly, since Loghain does in fact have an army and Howe is in fact stealing money from the treasury and the country is in fact at war and countries at war tend to need funds in a hurry, that he's actually selling elves to Tevinter as a last resort for funding his army?  Which one is more plausible?

I don't see where Howe stealing public funds is coming from. But more importantly, we don't have any evidence that his sale of slaves is a "last resort". Again, Loghain does not stand up there and say that Ferelden is broke and that he's giving up the elves because he has to - he says that they're not something he can defend, so he's cutting his losses and making them useful.

What you're saying might be somewhat more justfiable - though I would still stay that without having exhausted every alternative, which we have no evidence that Loghain has done - it is not justified, but that's irrelevant.

Because Loghain does not use this as a basis.

So what is your explanation for why there are NPCs strewn around the alienage called Sick Elf, who aren't there in the city elf origin?  Valendrian, when asked about the plague, says they'll deal with it as they've dealt with such epidemics before.  He doesn't ask "what plague?"

Okay, then let's grant that there is an illness. There is still no evidence that the elves are being cured. It's clear that the Tevinters are capturing healthy elves as slaves. They aren't helping. So the point is irrelevant anyway.

He is wrong, that's true.  The statement is also silly since the alienage is smack dab in the middle of the city rather than at a gate or some vulnerable point.  However it's also not unreasonable to think that the elves there were helpless.

But it doesn't matter. What matters is that Loghain justifies slavery solely on the military justification of the alienage being hard to protect. That's it - that's his defence. We could stand around and we can invent reasons why he's a good man or a bad man, but the reality is what he uses as a justification.

No I'm not.  I'm arguing that Loghain in fact has an army, as support
for the idea that he needed funds to feed and equip them.  I think you
just haven't been following the train of conversation.

Ah, my bad. I was thinking of where we last left off, rather than were the thread moved. My apologies! 

... which started when he demanded troops to fight the darkspawn.  Around the circle goes.

It started when he named himself Regent and approached politics like Renegade Shepard.

The Orlesians who aren't even on the scene know more about the Blight
than the Fereldans do?  Alistair doesn't say until late in the game "now
we know for sure that it's a true Blight."  Duncan is convinced, but
obviously not enough to pass on his conviction even to Cailan.  As for
the Orlesians not invading, that is hindsight and there's no way you can
say they didn't stop because Loghain was alive and had his army
intact.  They may have been counting on a de facto occupation
accompanied by a royal wedding.

Duncan can feel the archdemon. There is no reason to believe the Warden Commander of Orlais can't either. Alistair says that there's no doubt it's a true blight when it becomes clear in his dreams that the Archdemon sees him.

My point regarding the Orlesians not invading isn't hindsight - it's that Loghain is, again, an idiot. He asked them nicely to leave. Well, if they didn't want to, they'd just decapitate his men and march right into Ferelden.

More importantly, if the Orlesians want a weakened Ferelden, Loghain's already giving it to them by fighting  a civil war to start with.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Except actually, history doesn't repeat itself most of the time. As I said, in the real world, we do not blacklist countries because of past wars. Leaderships change, countries change. Thirty years is more than enough time, let alone thirty decades. Rome is no longer a world-spanning Empire, neither is Britain. Prove that Orlais is exactly the same as it was three decades ago, when it was ruled by a completely different person.

Prove that countries that enter your territory to meet a military threat always go home when it's settled.  Then tell it to the Britons about the Saxons or the Roman governor of Africa about the Vandals, so we can hear them laughing from their graves.

Thirty years is not even one generation.  As we know now, Celene's hold on power is tenuous.  Even if she was all sweetness and light and good will (here I would suggest taking Morrigan's advice about the two things men always believe about women), if she loses power at home but her chevaliers are occupying Ferelden, is that going to matter?

Thirty years was enough time for rational people to get over World War 2, and for less rational people to switch focus to the completely imaginary threat of Communism.

It's completely ironic that everyone who presumes to preach the "complexity" of Loghain to us lesser mortals manages to, in their defense of him, write off an entire country that we've never seen as the cradle of all that is evil and smells bad.

They are not evil, but imperialistic, remember the Dales? They have shown a long history of it, and Duke Gaspard who's started a civil against Celene wants to continue the trend, by conquering Ferelden.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Except actually, history doesn't repeat itself most of the time. As I said, in the real world, we do not blacklist countries because of past wars. Leaderships change, countries change. Thirty years is more than enough time, let alone thirty decades. Rome is no longer a world-spanning Empire, neither is Britain. Prove that Orlais is exactly the same as it was three decades ago, when it was ruled by a completely different person.

Prove that countries that enter your territory to meet a military threat always go home when it's settled.  Then tell it to the Britons about the Saxons or the Roman governor of Africa about the Vandals, so we can hear them laughing from their graves.

Thirty years is not even one generation.  As we know now, Celene's hold on power is tenuous.  Even if she was all sweetness and light and good will (here I would suggest taking Morrigan's advice about the two things men always believe about women), if she loses power at home but her chevaliers are occupying Ferelden, is that going to matter?

Thirty years was enough time for rational people to get over World War 2, and for less rational people to switch focus to the completely imaginary threat of Communism.

It's completely ironic that everyone who presumes to preach the "complexity" of Loghain to us lesser mortals manages to, in their defense of him, write off an entire country that we've never seen as the cradle of all that is evil and smells bad.

They are not evil, but imperialistic, remember the Dales? They have shown a long history of it, and Duke Gaspard who's started a civil against Celene wants to continue the trend, by conquering Ferelden.

While Celene, to all apearances, wants to break that trend.

But what Duke Gaspard wants in DA2 is irrelevent. It's a full seven years later, and has no bearing on the situation in Origins. Loghain's paranoia is misplaced. Orlais was not a threat during Origins and did not become even a potential one until well after the fact.

Even if it is proven later that Celene is a big old Schemey Schemerson, and always wanted to raze Denerim to the ground and stick Cailan's head on a spike, the fact remains that Loghain had no evidence for his accusation and still doesn't. Being retroactively right by sheer coincidence doesn't make him any less of a complete whackjob. For his paranoia to be justified, he needs actual current proof. And there is none.

[TJPags]

This thread, as all Loghain threads so, amuses me.

However, I'm all out of desire to argue about him, so I'll leave it to Plaintiff, In Exile and others, who are doing an admirable job pointing out what is actually shown IN THE GAME.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...
Thirty years was enough time for rational people to get over World War 2, and for less rational people to switch focus to the completely imaginary threat of Communism.

It's completely ironic that everyone who presumes to preach the "complexity" of Loghain to us lesser mortals manages to, in their defense of him, write off an entire country that we've never seen as the cradle of all that is evil and smells bad.

I'm getting very tired of your tone.  You're basically venting and now you're contradicting yourself.  If hindsight proves the Orlesians never intended to invade, but hindsight can't prove Loghain was right to have concerns about Orlesian ambitions, then the fact is- we just don't know.  He made a decision which he admits in the end was an error, i.e. rating the Orlesian threat as higher than the darkspawn.  People with great responsibility have to make decisions with limited information and yes, they have human weaknesses too, but that doesn't mean they don't have good reasons for those decisions.  See if your "lesser mortal" mind can process that.

I've noticed that if people dislike a character, they tend to see their flaws as fixed and inalienable.  The person can never change and is defined by his or her failings.  Whereas if you like a character or are neutral to them, you're willing to see them in a 360 light.  That is what this discussion is about, providing a 180 to the haterade.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2013 - 02:21 .

[Yalision]

After countless times killing him, I finally learned enough about Loghain and made it my canon to keep him alive. Great villain.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I've noticed that if people dislike a character, they tend to see their flaws as fixed and inalienable.  The person can never change and is defined by his or her failings.  Whereas if you like a character or are neutral to them, you're willing to see them in a 360 light.  That is what this discussion is about, providing a 180 to the haterade.

I just want to clarify. My position isn't that Loghain doesn't think he has very good reasons to do what he did, or that Loghain doesn't love Ferelden, or that his patriotism couldn't (in theory) be used to justify (for at least many people) some very dirty choices and actions.

But with all of that in mind, I still have two points: (i) you can do all of that and nevertheless be a villain, if some of the things you do go far enough beyond the moral event horizon (and, IMO, the Warden himself or herself can cross that moral event horizon in DA:O, into villain protagonist); and (ii) Loghain's way of going about all of this is not very good, so to speak, and part of what IMO makes one a villain is when there is a less horrible option on the table.

Take Anders nuking the Chantry. To me, that's a moral event horizon. There's at least one poster in this thread who (used to) believe that this is entirely a justified act, and that if anything Anders didn't go far enough.

I think there's this idea that complex motivations, or relatable motivations, or a good cause, can counterbalance other choices and actions people take. And I don't believe in that, which is why despite all these ostensibly justfiable motivations I  still stake out the territory that Loghain is a very far away from "good" or "justified".

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
I think he doesn't value life. Whether or not that's heroic is a matter of debate. But my point wasn't that what Loghain was doing was wrong morally - it was that it wasn't justified tactically, at least, not based on what we see happen after the fact.

Or he is willing to sacrifice the few to save the many?

I don't see where Howe stealing public funds is coming from.

In the rogue quests you can pilfer Howe's embezzlement money.

But more importantly, we don't have any evidence that his sale of slaves is a "last resort".

Loghain working with Tevinters.  Think about it.  Would he do that if it weren't the last resort?

Because Loghain does not use this as a basis.

He's explaining why he chose the alienage, but he goes on to say that war demands sacrifices.  The necessity to pay the armies is the argument he's using.

Okay, then let's grant that there is an illness. There is still no evidence that the elves are being cured. It's clear that the Tevinters are capturing healthy elves as slaves. They aren't helping. So the point is irrelevant anyway.

They aren't taking only the sick, but that doesn't mean they aren't healing some.  I say again- one woman claims they healed her relative, and they aren't worried about contagion for themselves or for their slave imports, so they apparently have some way to deal with it.

When an elven Warden approaches, the healer looks shocked and says you're very sick and should come in to their staging area right away.  That could be because they sense darkspawn taint (several people report feeling something is different about Wardens) and means they are taking sick people as well as healthy.  Or, it could be a ruse, but I always felt like his reaction was genuine.

All this is kind of beside the point anyway- the main point being that from a logistics standpoint, the alienage is only a negative and therefore an acceptable loss if it means the rest of the country is saved.

But it doesn't matter. What matters is that Loghain justifies slavery solely on the military justification of the alienage being hard to protect. That's it - that's his defence. We could stand around and we can invent reasons why he's a good man or a bad man, but the reality is what he uses as a justification.

Wrong, as I said above.  That's why he's saying that the alienage was a goner anyway.  He then talks about how war is not pretty and demands sacrifices.

It started when he named himself Regent and approached politics like Renegade Shepard.

That's the "how."  But the "what" is that he was demanding they provide him troops and fall in line.

Duncan can feel the archdemon. There is no reason to believe the Warden Commander of Orlais can't either.

Possible, but I still don't see how it makes Loghain an "idiot."  He doesn't trust Wardens, period.  There is good reason from history not to.  There's good reason from Ostagar- the Wardens didn't sense that the horde was much larger than anyone expected.  Riordan didn't sense that they were headed to Denerim instead of Redcliffe.  Warden sense tingles is apparently not that reliable.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2013 - 02:41 .

[legbamel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[back-and-forth snip]
During a war, that's their only source of income. Ferelden's not really advanced culturally to warrant much income coming in without using external resources.

Orlais has a university. Kirkwall is a trading port city that sees a lot of... well... trading. Tevinter has its arcane knowledge. The Dwarves have their skill at the forges, Golems, lyrium, runecrafting, and enchanting goods.

Ferelden only has, prior to the Blight, the Circle to use for garnering coin. Had the Ashes been known about prior to the Blight -- location and everything -- they could've taken coin from believers on pilgrimages.

Ferelden's not really able to churn out much goods worth trading. At least, not fast enough that they could profit off of it. 

The Mages and the Formari on the other hand have an entire fraternity dedicated to raising coin. The Lucrosians.
[another long snip]

Here's where your argument about Loghain's deal with Uldred falls down and why I don't really understand why he'd make it in the first place.  All of the countries in Thedas have Circles with members of various fraternities.  How would taking over the Circle provide more money to the treasury than making a deal with the Templars to cut out the Chantry's cut thereof?  Doesn't Kinloch Hold pay taxes on what these Lucrosians raise?  If not, can't Loghain institute such a tax in time of war?

A more sensible argument might be that he wanted mages on his side to fight first the civil war (that he caused by declaring himself regent in the first place) and then to fight the Darkspawn.  It makes no sense that he would essentially taunt Orlais with an excuse for an exalted march by freeing the Circle for a bit of gold.  He could have busted Howe a whole lot more easily and won the favor of some of the very nobles fighting him, instead.

As for selling people to known blood mages to be their slaves, I don't care why he says he did it.  There is never a reason to sell your citizens into slavery.  Doing so to a country whose help you seek, knowing their own history of brutality and blasphemy (if the latter matters to you), makes you doubly wrong.  Were I Loghain I'd have been as paranoid of the Tevinter Imperium looking for lands into which they could expand to get away from the Qunari as I was of Orlais.

I still don't buy the assertion that Ferelden had no other sources of income.  On what was that raided treasury built in the first place, if all Loghain can do is go begging to Tevinter and the Lucrosians for the money to pay the army?  Were there not craftspeople in all of Ferelden?  With whom was Kirkwall doing all that trading if not their nearest neighbors?

[TEWR]

legbamel wrote...

A more sensible argument might be that he wanted mages on his side to fight first the civil war (that he caused by declaring himself regent in the first place) and then to fight the Darkspawn.

Except Uldred had been trying to get the Circle on Loghain's side long before the civil war started. Uldred went back to the Circle immediately after Ostagar. And immediately after Ostagar, the Civil War hadn't started.

The Civil war only starts around the time the first army-gathering troop is done, and even then the first blow hasn't been struck by anyone.

Remember, Teagan said in the Landsmeet scene that Loghain risked civil war. It hadn't started and during that time Uldred is already trying to convince the Circle.

I still don't buy the assertion that Ferelden had no other sources of income. On what was that raided treasury built in the first place, if all Loghain can do is go begging to Tevinter and the Lucrosians for the money to pay the army? Were there not craftspeople in all of Ferelden? With whom was Kirkwall doing all that trading if not their nearest neighbors?

Those crafthalls weren't getting paid for their work, which you can see and hear about throughout the game. The nation was in that much debt.

Kirkwall is a trading hub, importing and exporting goods with many places. Not just Ferelden.

When war is going on, resources are devoted to the war effort. This leads to things that the populus needs -- consumer goods -- becoming scarce, which means prices increase. Supply and Demand.

Eventually, the black market rises as well.

Foreign trade also comes to a grinding halt.

Ferelden does not have enough internal resources to churn out a profit, which is what I said here:

At least, not fast enough that they could profit off of it.

That's at the very least. I doubt they could've turned a profit at all.

TJPags wrote...

However, I'm all out of desire to argue about him, so I'll leave it to Plaintiff, In Exile and others, who are doing an admirable job pointing out what is actually shown IN THE GAME.

They're really not.

[Dean_the_Young]

A thousand pardons for not swamping through a dozen or so pages, but has there been any sort of agreement as to what sort of enemy Loghain was, so that we can reflect on if we want similarities to? How you define 'like Loghain' would determine quite a bit.

For example, as far as antagonism driven by rampant paranoia and nativism goes, I wouldn't be particularly interested in another antagonist motivated by such. Loghain was always at his weakest when irrational, and most of his antagonism came from irrational beliefs. Wasn't a fan then, and not interested now: DA3 has far too much potential on the international aspect of Thedas to tie it down with a nativist extremist.

If we're talking about a highly nationalist and competent thinker, both clever and effective, as Loghain was intended to be... well, sure. I'd like that. I'd like it better than Loghain was, but how that should be is a matter of opinion. (In mine, the player and party being out-smarted and not just out-numbered.)

If we're talking about an antagonist who can become ally, sure, that could be interesting. It depends on context, and would need a compelling reason to justify it.

If we're talking about someone for whom a majority of development only comes after recruitment, though, and in which the post-recruitment development is extremely different from the pre-recruitment villainy... not interested. I personally felt that a big flaw of Loghain's was that his virtues were primarily allowed to show in retrospect.

[Herr Uhl]

The Hierophant wrote...

Want Peace? Sure, but excluding the letters at Ostagar as a marriage to Cailan would ensure that Orlais has control of the Ferelden throne, plus she has no respect for Cailan as she indirectly insulted him here. I doubt she genuinely likes any of them.

The Cailan solution might have been her alternative to being forced to get into a war by the nobility. It failed, thus rebellion.

I honestly think she has little interest in conquest. Granted that is little more than a hunch, as I lack proof.

[TEWR]

Whoo there are a lot of wrong posts to address stemming from Loghain detractors.

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I thought it was Loghain who was responsible the strategy used at Ostagar and that Cailan was just following Loghain's battle plan?

 

No, Cailan wasn't.

The battle plan Loghain came up with was the Hammer&Anvil, where he tells Cailan he will draw the Darkspawn into attacking them so Loghain's men can flank the Darkspawn.

Drawing them in means luring the Darkspawn towards them, not meeting them out in the open with three flanks exposed.

Cailan orders his men to charge out in the open after wasting the Mabari hounds and only launching one volley of arrows, as opposed to keeping his men with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, keeping the Mabari alongside the troops to do more damage when the Darkspawn come in, and having rows of archers standing behind a shield wall launching volleys and volleys of arrows into the horde.

Loghain told Cailan the strategy. Cailan ****ed it up, and you can see him in the charging cinematic -- when it focuses on the soldiers' movements -- using his sword in such a way that says "Go out there!"

And remember, if you tell Loghain he abandoned the king, his words are "You goaded him into making that charge! He believed the tales Warden! He believed your men could turn the tide of battle, strategy and consequence be hanged!"

Costin Razvan wrote...

He could say goodbye to a good chunk of his army's morale and discipline if he drafted the elves into the army.

He did it in the Stolen Throne and the rebel army was fine with it. Loghain admires the Elves' ability to be excellent bowmen -- something he'll tell a Dalish Warden.

He did it once before and it worked. No reason why it couldn't work again.

Plaintiff wrote...

Is it really a surprise to you that I hold this opinion? Obviously I think your argument is bad. If I thought otherwise, I would not be arguing against it in the first place.

There's a gaping difference between feeling your decision is right and feeling other peoples' decisions are wrong. Saying people are misguided and clutching at straws does you no service and makes you come off as arrogant and rude.

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

even though even after your rebuttal it still looks like you are claiming that "Xanthos" saw the battle was unwinnable due to the way the soldiers were acting and that he has seen a darkspawn as if the rest of the army has no idea what one is, please correct me if I am wrong here

Okay, you are wrong.

Xanthos overhears how the soldiers are reporting on the horde's larger numbers with each engagement. Something that other people make note of as well.

Xanthos overhears how all of the scouting bands have gone missing. How the last to come back only had two people alive, one missing a leg and who died from injuries sustained by an Ogre -- a living siege weapon for the Darkspawn.

Xanthos suspects the wounded soldiers were actually infected with the Blight disease, since they report "it burns!" and remark on how they can "feel him" and that "he calls", leading him to believe it was the Archdemon.

Xanthos finds out that Loghain Mac Tir, the man who became Teyrn of Gwaren nineteen years ago, only now bothers to find out about the Tower of Ishal's lower levels. The man who wants to know where his borders end and how best to defend them is ignorant of a vital fortress in Ferelden's southern defense -- more a failing on Bioware's part because Bioware knows jack **** about warfare and the like.

Oh, and during the battle I can see just how Cailan acted in battle and I can see the strength of the horde, where it goes back into the farthest reaches of the Wilds.

But please, do go on.

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Dont, just dont, you know that is not what I said so dont cry foul if I may misinterpret what you say

Except that is what you said. I took those quotes from the appropriate pages. You may take issue with what I inferred from what you said, but those were your words. And they were not clear on what you just made evident here...

o I dont expect Loghain to defend Lothering with a handful of men and eventually get overrun but instead of just riding to Denerim to wage political war he could have at least left a few men to help with an evacuation or put something in place to assist the refugees, hell he doesnt even try to warn Lothering that a large swarm of Darkspawn is heading their way. Lothering is just one example of all the people Loghain has failed to protect dispite his insistance that "he is doing what he thinks is in the best interests of his country".

First, if he was to have any chance of gathering enough men to fight back the Darkspawn his best bet was to go to the one place where all of the nobility would have gathered. That's Denerim. That's where the Landsmeet happens traditionally.

As for warning Lothering? They already know about the coming Darkspawn horde. They already know about Ostagar being a failure.

Should he have left some soldiers to help out? Sure. For the record, he did leave some soldiers there, but they were douches. Whether he told them to help the village out or not I don't know, but I do know those guys were not actually helping the villagers. They were terrorizing them -- a villager outside of the tavern will tell you about this, as will Danal, often when they were drunk. 

All I know is he left them there with the orders to look for surviving Wardens.

Plaintiff wrote...

If he had the presence of mind to stop and consider for a moment that maybe his best days were behind him, and it was time to let younger people prove themselves, then maybe it could have all been avoided.

Historically, during this type of technological level people would be at their prime physically so no, Loghain's best days aren't behind him.

He's experienced some traumatic things, which influence his judgment, but that doesn't make him "insane". No more then say a Mage being raped repeatedly, witnessing brutal treatment by Templars, and so on isn't labeled insane if they decide to hold it against all Templars. 

You know, I'm pro-mage myself, but it's kinda funny how some pro-mage posters will say all the Templars are evil -- when really they aren't, they're just mostly evil in my view -- and then say "Loghain was wrong to judge all the Orlesians as evil simply because of his past. He's a damn racist that should die."

That smell. A type of smelly smell. The type of smelly smell that smells.... smelly.

Smells like... hypocrisy. 

Is it a correct view to hold on the Templars/Orlesians? No. But it doesn't make him "howling at the moon insane".

He refuses to let Cailan have a real say in tactics, because Cailan wants to ally with the Orlesians, and Loghain can't accept that

Cailan doesn't have a mind for strategy, something he professes to find boring. His name translates to "child", everyone knows him for a fool of a king, and everyone knows he hasn't been the one ruling the throne for the last five years. There's substantial in-game evidence from multiple sources of influential standing in Ferelden to address that Anora's been the brains behind the throne.

His dream was to plunge Maric's blade into the Archdemon's skull so he could earn glory. Glory and legends are the only things he cares about.

Atakuma wrote...

I think letting your own army get decimated by a horde of evil creatures while claiming they aren't a threat is quite idiotic.

Except he couldn't win Ostagar -- no one could -- and not once does he say they aren't a threat. He refutes the idea of it being a Blight, but the Darkspawn were his top priority up until the Bannorn waged civil war.

You cannot fight a war on two fronts and succeed easily. It's one of the hardest things to do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2013 - 04:27 .

[The Hierophant]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Want Peace? Sure, but excluding the letters at Ostagar as a marriage to Cailan would ensure that Orlais has control of the Ferelden throne, plus she has no respect for Cailan as she indirectly insulted him here. I doubt she genuinely likes any of them.

The Cailan solution might have been her alternative to being forced to get into a war by the nobility. It failed, thus rebellion.

I honestly think she has little interest in conquest. Granted that is little more than a hunch, as I lack proof.

I'm in the same boat as it's mostly speculation on my part where nothing has been confirmed/guaranteed at this point.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 janvier 2013 - 04:35 .

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...
He tells Howe directly that the Blight isn't to be dealt with until he's handled the civil war, militarily. Howe even quests if there is enough military might left in Ferelde to do so. Loghain dismisses him.

You try fighting a war on two fronts. Loghain wanted a unified nation standing on its own without Orlesian aid to push the Darkspawn back. He recognized them as a threat, but wanted the nation to back him in their war against them so that they could prove they didn't need Orlais.

Then, in the middle of a Blight -- something Teagan does believe is the case -- the Bannorn decides that politics are more important then standing behind a person who, while antagonistic and garners their suspicion, is trying to take down the Darkspawn.

When they started fighting him, he needed to defeat the rebellion as quickly as possible so that the nation could be united against the Darkspawn -- a united land being something he wanted from the very beginning.

In Exile wrote...

It makes perfect sense if the plot was that Loghain planned from the start to kill of Cailan

Which the game disproves and which Word of God disproves.

So in a word, NO.

In Exile wrote...

Caladrius was trying to get you to not drive a spike through his throat

True, but Loghain would want to eliminate Caladrius as soon as Caladrius becomes inconvenient. If, as I suspect, Howe was the one who brought the slavery idea to Loghain, then I suspect Howe would've also been the one trying to get Loghain to sweep the issue under the rug as it were. 

When Caladrius is no longer needed, if he's still there that increases the chances of the slavery thing leaking out.

Which is what the Warden did. He found out about it when Caladrius was no longer needed for Loghain.

Wulfram wrote...

Waiting for Eamon means abandoning Ostagar

And waiting for Orlais doesn't? Especially when Orlais is farther then Redcliffe and the only way for people to cross borders is through Gherlen's Pass, a mountain stretch of road?

Plaintiff wrote...

Blights are centuries apart. What Orlais did half a millenium ago is not relevent to anything that may happen now or in the future.

The last time Orlais took advantage of a crisis another place was suffering from was two centuries prior to the Dragon Age. They liberated Kirkwall from the Qunari's presence and then never left until Kirkwall rebelled.

Orlais has a history mired in expansionism, usually following this formula:

1) Aid a nation that's suffering from some sort of situation.
2) Help them push that situation into being not so big a deal.
3) Stay to help them get back on track, then they'll leave.
4) Profit! By way of never leaving.
5) Have forces rebel against you.

They've done it to Nevarra, the Anderfels, and Kirkwall. The Blight is only one of the ways they'll expand their territory. They'll take advantage of any situation that makes a target look weak. 

Plaintiff wrote...

Loghain and his boot-licking toadies are the only ones who believe that an Orlesian invasion is likely, let alone imminent. And as it turns out, they were completely wrong. Almost a decade later, and no such invasion has occured. Empress Celene is, in fact, according to the only person we know who has had any contact with her, actively opposed to invasion and is co-operating with King Alistair.

I would think that being told the Orlesians will bring four legions of chevaliers by the Empress and then finding out they were really bringing twelve divisions would be a large red flag.

If they can't be honest about how many troops they're bringing, they're hiding something. 

Plaintiff wrote...

Prove that Cailan refused Eamon's help. Don't give me straw-clutching theories about the hidden meaning behind Cailan's laugh or the position of his left foot or what-the-****-ever. Show me the line where he explicitly says "I refuse Eamon's help".

A reminder, by its very nature, means the topic was brought up previously. See what I wrote on page 6 or so.

TEWR wrote...

Eamon's closer to Ostagar then two groups: the Orlesians and the Couslands. The Couslands received a summons and their troops were mobilized and made it to Ostagar before the Warden did.

Eamon could've been there already. He's closer, his forces are smaller then the Couslands, and yet he has to remind Cailan of all of this. He has to remind his nephew of how close he is. Which indicates that Cailan refused Eamon being there in the past.

Given how the two of them had a falling out -- such that they haven't spoken in a year -- over Anora, it seems evident that Cailan didn't really want to see his uncle again because it might just remind him of the whole issue.

Or the issue would be brought up again.

 

Factor in how he says "We've won three battles against these monsters already, the next will be no different" and it's clear he doesn't want Eamon there.

[Mike3207]

I don't recall a character named Loghan being in Dragon Age. I recruited one named Loghain.

[The Hierophant]

TEWR did you play Vagrant Story?

[TEWR]

No, why?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .