597 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...
Or he is willing to sacrifice the few to save the many? [/quote]

That's a loaded question, because it assumes that's what he's doing. But to me, this is precisely the case where there is a third option. There's no evidence that Loghain considered any option before slavery.

[quote]Loghain working with Tevinters.  Think about it.  Would he do that if it weren't the last resort?[/quote]

That's, again,  a loaded question. The answer to that is whatever you think about his character - but based on what he says, it seems that he most certainly has a choice - it's just that (a) he doesn't give a fig about elven lives; and so ( by getting rid of the elves he solves both the alienage problem and acquires coin for his army without making it seem like he needs it.

None of which requires it to be the last resort, just that Loghain is an amoral man who would rather benefit at the cost of a lot of suffering for the elves.

[quote]He's explaining why he chose the alienage, but he goes on to say that war demands sacrifices.  The necessity to pay the armies is the argument he's using. [/quote]

No, that's not the right characterization. He says (a) the Alienage can't be defended; and ( he needs the coin. SInce he would leave the alienage to die anyway, he might as well sell them into slavery and get money out of them first. That's his defence.

You're trying to make this about some noble impulse for funds, but it's not that. The alienage is a loss, so Loghain is making them useful. If there's an argument for necessity there it stems not from a need for funds but from the ineviatbility that the alienage will be lost.

[quote]They aren't taking only the sick, but that doesn't mean they aren't healing some.  I say again- one woman claims they healed her relative, and they aren't worried about contagion for themselves or for their slave imports, so they apparently have some way to deal with it. [/quote]

This is becoming farcial. The whole point of that scene is to establish the scam the Tevinters are runnign - all of the elves are cowed and scared and believe that the Tevinters are healing them when they're sold off into slavery. They up and grab your CE elf who they immediately diagnose with the plague, and absolutely no one you run into is being healed.

In fact, when you follow their track through to the blood mage leader you find nothing but broken homes were it's made clear that elves were forcibly removed from their homes and taken as slaves.

[quote]When an elven Warden approaches, the healer looks shocked and says you're very sick and should come in to their staging area right away.  That could be because they sense darkspawn taint (several people report feeling something is different about Wardens) and means they are taking sick people as well as healthy.  Or, it could be a ruse, but I always felt like his reaction was genuine. [/quote]

Is this a joke? I played that segment. The very thing they do is take you to the room where they're keeping caged healthy elves they're about to sell as slaves! This idea that they're sensing the taint and really curing disesae is absurd.

Moreover, the first thing that the Tevinters offer you is (a) to let them walk away happy with their slaves; and ( to sacrifce the lot of them to heal you. There's absolutely no evidence that anyone is being healed.

Shianni even points out that no one being "healed" has ever returned. So whoever is being healed - and whatever nonsesne some random elf is saying - does not fit with the reality the game is portraying.

[quote]All this is kind of beside the point anyway- the main point being that from a logistics standpoint, the alienage is only a negative and therefore an acceptable loss if it means the rest of the country is saved. [/quote]

No, the point (as I showed when I illustrated what actually happens) is that Loghain is full of it. The Alienage survives just fine when it's reinforced, and infact survies quite  a while with likely no protection by the token force left in Denerim.

Not to mention that this isn't even what you said above. Before, your justification was that Loghain just needed the coin. Now we've switched gears to the alienage being lost anyway?

[quote]Wrong, as I said above.  That's why he's saying that the alienage was a goner anyway.  He then talks about how war is not pretty and demands sacrifices. [/quote]

And what we do we care about what self-serving drivel Loghain puts foward? Just because someone gets on a pulpit and claims that "choices are hard" and "lives have to be sacrified" doesn't for even a second justify anything. It's all about what the facts on the ground say, and there's no evidence the alienage can't be defended other than Loghain telling you can't, and later we find out he's full of it.

[quote]That's the "how."  But the "what" is that he was demanding they provide him troops and fall in line. [/quote]

To his rule, after he just left Cailan to die and then went and declared himself Regent! It's like he open a book called "How to Look Really Complicit in the Death of My Sovereign, By Idiot McMoron". He might as well have grown a mustache and started twirling it.

[quote[Possible, but I still don't see how it makes Loghain an "idiot."  He doesn't trust Wardens, period.  There is good reason from history not to.  There's good reason from Ostagar- the Wardens didn't sense that the horde was much larger than anyone expected.  Riordan didn't sense that they were headed to Denerim instead of Redcliffe.  Warden sense tingles is apparently not that reliable.
[/quote]

But who's talking about Loghain trusting the Wardens here? We're talking about Orlais. You said Orlais had no reason to believe it was a Blight. You're wrong: they have the word of the Wardens, and if the Orlesian Wardens aren't as stupid, they might actually let the relevant persons know they can sense the archdemon itself. After that it's just a matter of whether or not they're believed.

And seeing as how Orlais left nicely when Loghain told them to leave, it seems that they were there for the blight.

Especially since if Loghain is such a loon about Orlais, it makes exactly zero sense why he thinks they'd just up and leave if he asks nicely.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You try fighting a war on two fronts. Loghain wanted a unified nation standing on its own without Orlesian aid to push the Darkspawn back. He recognized them as a threat, but wanted the nation to back him in their war against them so that they could prove they didn't need Orlais.

He wanted the other nobles cowed, and bending their knee to him. He demanded as much from them, when he declared himself Regent. And he absolutely did not recognize the Blight as a threat at least until after it overran Lothering, despite having been at Ostagar.

Then, in the middle of a Blight -- something Teagan does believe is the case -- the Bannorn decides that politics are more important then standing behind a person who, while antagonistic and garners their suspicion, is trying to take down the Darkspawn.

Because he muredered their King! If Loghain loves Ferelden so much, then why doesn't he surrender himself and leave Anora to rule? Or why does he not just say that Anora should rule herself? He demands fealty. The entire war is about Loghain demanding fealty, and trusting absolutely no one to rule Ferelden but himself. It's why Plan A is to poison and kill Eamon.

When they started fighting him, he needed to defeat the rebellion as quickly as possible so that the nation could be united against the Darkspawn -- a united land being something he wanted from the very beginning.

Garbage. He wants to fight Orlais, or whatever other imaginary enemy is running through his head. He certainly doesn't give a fig about a united Ferelden unless it unites behind him. He says as much at the Landsmeet when he calls out every single noble who chooses to stand behind Eamon/Alistair.

So in a word, NO.

Yes, I'm aware. So instead we're left with the other conclusion: Loghain is an idiot.

True, but Loghain would want to eliminate Caladrius as soon as Caladrius becomes inconvenient. If, as I suspect, Howe was the one who brought the slavery idea to Loghain, then I suspect Howe would've also been the one trying to get Loghain to sweep the issue under the rug as it were. 

Oh, so Loghain just gleefully goes around betraying all of his allies. Well, that does make me feel better about his deal with the slavers - he was planning to betray them after they actually took away all the slaves! He might as well grow that mustache now.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Dont, just dont, you know that is not what I said so dont cry foul if I may misinterpret what you say

Except that is what you said. I took those quotes from the appropriate pages. You may take issue with what I inferred from what you said, but those were your words. And they were not clear on what you just made evident here...

Listen kiddo, I dont care who you think you are to make the absurd assumptions that you did but I think I know what I said better than you do so get off your high horse and start arguing what has been said and not what you think has been said, its not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension skills and blew my quote out to be something it isnt.

Its funny though you complain that I misread your post in claiming that Xanthos was using metagame knowledge to predict the battle would be unwinnable but what is this?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Xanthos suspects the wounded soldiers were actually infected with the Blight disease, since they report "it burns!" and remark on how they can "feel him" and that "he calls", leading him to believe it was the Archdemon.

Gee I diddnt know your Dwarf character knew all about Blight sickness and that those infected with the taint can hear the Archdemon calling, I thought that was something only Grey Wardens knew but that cant be true as your Dwarf isnt a Warden yet, I mean if it was then one would assume that your Dwarf is using METAGAME KNOWLEDGE, but then that would be absurd since you totally already told me how wrong I am right champ?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

However, I'm all out of desire to argue about him, so I'll leave it to Plaintiff, In Exile and others, who are doing an admirable job pointing out what is actually shown IN THE GAME.

They're really not.

You might claim that but they arent the ones clutching at straws and resorting to cheap strawman tactics in order to defend the illogical inconsistencies of a poorly written character.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:12 .

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No, why?

Basically FF12 was a prequel to it, and i was going to suggest that the antagonist Sydney Losstarot, was a rare example of complex character who the games's fandom as a whole sympathized despite his methods to achieving his goal.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:17 .

[TEWR]

Listen kiddo, I dont care who you think you are to make the absurd assumptions that you did but I think I know what I said better than you do so get off your high horse and start arguing what has been said and not what you think has been said, its not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension skills and blew my quote out to be something it isnt.

First, don't call me kiddo.

Second, again that is what you said. I may have inferred it to mean something else, but those were the exact words you used. Go back to the original page you wrote them on.

Or continue to ignore what I'm saying in response to what you're actually saying, because you just now made it clear, and continue to attack me like an immature brat.

Gee I diddnt know your Dwarf character knew all about Blight sickness and that those infected with the taint can hear the Archdemon calling, I thought that was something only Grey Wardens knew but that cant be true as your Dwarf isnt a Warden yet, I mean if it was then one would assume that your Dwarf is using METAGAME KNOWLEDGE, but then that would be absurd since you totally already told me how wrong I am right champ?

They continue to talk about it after you've become a Grey Warden, ******. They're still there, still talking about how they can hear him calling.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Listen kiddo, I dont care who you think you are to make the absurd assumptions that you did but I think I know what I said better than you do so get off your high horse and start arguing what has been said and not what you think has been said, its not my fault that you lack basic reading comprehension skills and blew my quote out to be something it isnt.

First, don't call me kiddo.

Second, again that is what you said. I may have inferred it to mean something else, but those were the exact words you used. Go back to the original page you wrote them on.

Or continue to ignore what I'm saying in response to what you're actually saying, because you just now made it clear, and continue to attack me like an immature brat.

Gee I diddnt know your Dwarf character knew all about Blight sickness and that those infected with the taint can hear the Archdemon calling, I thought that was something only Grey Wardens knew but that cant be true as your Dwarf isnt a Warden yet, I mean if it was then one would assume that your Dwarf is using METAGAME KNOWLEDGE, but then that would be absurd since you totally already told me how wrong I am right champ?

They continue to talk about it after you've become a Grey Warden, ******. They're still there, still talking about how they can hear him calling.

Are they still there well after the battle at Ostagar has been lost, because even though your Warden becomes a Warden just moments before the battle your Warden doesnt learn about the Archdemon calling through the taint until well after the battle has been lost.

You may take issue with what I inferred from what you said, but those were your words, kiddo.

[legbamel]

I'm not going to get into the insulting game, but you don't know about hearing the Archdemon until after you've left Flemeth's hut, when you wake up from dreaming about it. Before that all you know is that the taint makes it easier for you to sense Darkspawn, as that's what Alistair tells you in the Wilds. If you already knew Alistair wouldn't have had to explain the dream to you.

, but I'd like to think I was at least polite about it.

Modifié par legbamel, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:26 .

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

He wanted the other nobles cowed, and bending their knee to him. He demanded as much from them, when he declared himself Regent. And he absolutely did not  recognize the Blight as a threat at least until after it overran Lothering, despite having been at Ostagar.

He recognized the Darkspawn as a threat, and made that his first priority until the Bannorn decided to take issue with what he was doing. He didn't think their numbers alone lent validity to the claim of it being a Blight.

Yes, he declared himself Regent. But Anora was fine with it. May not have been wise -- I imagine a myriad of reasons for why she allowed it, but they're not really explored in-game -- but she was fine with it.

Meaning that the Bannorn went against what the Queen was okay with. I'd consider that treasonous.

Because he muredered their King!

Two things:

1) Cailan killed himself by playing hero on the front lines, against Loghain's repeated advice not to.

2) Maric once told him that if he ever had a choice to save Ferelden or save the king, to choose the former over the latter.

If Loghain loves Ferelden so much, then why doesn't he surrender himself and leave Anora to rule?

Because if he surrendered himself to a Bannorn that feels he betrayed the king when they weren't there, the realistic scenario is that he'd be tried for high treason, imprisoned, stripped of his titles, and at worst executed.

Surrender would ultimately have him hanged, and would kill morale from the people that revere him.

That's not to say that's why he stayed there, but that is what would've happened. Most likely.

I like to think Howe had begun to plant seeds of doubt into Loghain's mind about Anora's capability to rule after Cailan's death -- someone she did care for.

That she'd be too much in grief and conflicted over whether Loghain was part of Cailan's death to truly be in a state of mind. Which is sort of explored later on during an Anora-Loghain-Howe scene. No evidence that Howe had any part in why Loghain declared himself Regent and stayed there, but it's what I like to think and yes, that's just more of my headcanon.

Or there was a Larry Caul/Lilly Caul relationship going on. Or both.

Garbage. He wants to fight Orlais

No, he just doesn't want Orlais anywhere near Fereldan soil.

Yes, I'm aware. So instead we're left with the other conclusion: Loghain is an idiot.

Politically, yes he is an idiot.

[TEWR]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Are they still there well after the battle at Ostagar has been lost, because even though your Warden becomes a Warden just moments before the battle your Warden doesnt learn about the Archdemon calling through the taint until well after the battle has been lost.

You may take issue with what I inferred from what you said, but those were your words, kiddo.

Let me spell it out for you.

After you become a Grey Warden, Duncan says "Take your time. When you're ready, meet me at the War council".

You don't have to go there right away.

You can go to the area where the wounded soldiers are and overhear them talking about how "he calls" and how "they can feel it inside" and all that other ****.

And considering the Warden gets a vision of the Archdemon and Duncan and Alistair explained before drinking the Joining that taking in the Taint is the source of why they can sense the Darkspawn and everything it's self-explanatory to everyone. 

Save for you.

All tainted beings are connected to the Darkspawn hive-mind, something a Dwarf Noble can find out from the codex on Ghouls after defeating the Blight Wolf in his origin story.

There you go.

Oh, and the Archdemon codex you get upon arrival in Ostagar tells you they're Tainted themselves.

See here

Or are you still going to go on some idiotic crusade about how I'm "using metagame knowledge"?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:41 .

[legbamel]

Had he not left people in Lothering to look for Wardens (i.e. if he had left them to help evacuate and they just turned out to be jerks), if he had not declared himself regent needlessly (Anora shouldn't have to be fine with it; she was already the queen), had he not gone from suspicious of the Wardens at Ostagar to declaring them as an Order guilty of regicide, and had he not clearly made his deal with Uldred either at or before Ostagar I might have a whole lot more sympathy for his character. But he clearly had something up his sleeve to do a 180 from "No, Cailan, keep safe, your people need you" to "Screw that idiot, I'm king now" in about half an hour. (Yes that was hyperbole.)

It's the speed of his fairly justified objections (excepting his paranoia about the Orlesian troops, which you have no reason to understand at that point in the game) over Cailan's foolhardy optimism to blaming everyone and their brother for Cailan's death, seizing the throne, allying himself with a hated snake and then taking his advice on the worst possible actions, and generally turning into someone whose every move only makes things worse.

If he was so puffed up that he thought he was the only person in the entire kingdom who could lead the army against a horde of (they thought) mindless monsters, then I have no sympathy for him. Realizing what a mess Ostagar had been he should have left Anora to rule, told his side, and taken what came. Every bad thing that followed his declaring himself regent could have been avoided, leaving out, y'know, that pesky blight thing.

Now the story would have been much the poorer for it, I grant you. I love to hate me some Loghain.  

Edit: if your explanation only works for one of six origins, it's not very strong.  I played dwarf noble once, but my first three characters would have no idea what those soldiers meant by being called to until much later.  It's obvious that they were tainted but that doesn't spell "Blight", just "Exposure to Darkspawn".

Modifié par legbamel, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:42 .

[TEWR]

Edit: if your explanation only works for one of six origins, it's not very strong. I played dwarf noble once, but my first three characters would have no idea what those soldiers meant until much later.

My explanation was meant to explain why my Dwarf Noble knew Ostagar to be a flop, not for how every origin could know it.

And Gandalf conveniently ignored the other points I had made, only addressing the single one he thought was metagame knowledge.

Hell, every origin still gets a basic sense of what a Ghoul is by defeating the Wolves and reading the codex on them, where it talks about what happens to wolves during Blights. It talks about how anything that's severely tainted is under the command of Darkspawn. But a DN gets more information.

For the record, here are my other points -- and that's ignoring my long ass post from the earliest pages of this thread.

TEWR wrote...

Okay, you are wrong.

Xanthos overhears how the soldiers are reporting on the horde's larger numbers with each engagement. Something that other people make note of as well.

Xanthos overhears how all of the scouting bands have gone missing. How the last to come back only had two people alive, one missing a leg and who died from injuries sustained by an Ogre -- a living siege weapon for the Darkspawn.

Xanthos suspects the wounded soldiers were actually infected with the Blight disease, since they report "it burns!" and remark on how they can "feel him" and that "he calls", leading him to believe it was the Archdemon.

Xanthos finds out that Loghain Mac Tir, the man who became Teyrn of Gwaren nineteen years ago, only now bothers to find out about the Tower of Ishal's lower levels. The man who wants to know where his borders end and how best to defend them is ignorant of a vital fortress in Ferelden's southern defense -- more a failing on Bioware's part because Bioware knows jack **** about warfare and the like.

Oh, and during the battle I can see just how Cailan acted in battle and I can see the strength of the horde, where it goes back into the farthest reaches of the Wilds.

But please, do go on.

And also, one should note that a Dwarf Noble will receive different codexes that shed more light on the nature of Darkspawn, the Blights, and such.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:52 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
He recognized the Darkspawn as a threat, and made that his first priority until the Bannorn decided to take issue with what he was doing. He didn't think their numbers alone lent validity to the claim of it being a Blight.

Loghain does nothing but belittle the threat at Ostagar - he calls it, at most, a raid. Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the darkspawn have ever attacked Ferelden, and despite there being no historical evidence that there ever was such a thing as a large massed darkspawn raid, Loghain dismisses their danger. He then comes back, with the entire army in tatters, Cailan dead, and does not grieve, or do anything other than declare himself Regent.
ever

Yes, he declared himself Regent. But Anora was fine with it. May not have been wise -- I imagine a myriad of reasons for why she allowed it, but they're not really explored in-game -- but she was fine with it.

It doesn't matter. What matters is what it illustrates: ambition. If want Loghain cared about was Feredeln, if he was satisfied with being a commoner raised as a Teyrn and defending his nation, he would have simply tried to command Ferelden's armies as was his role. But that's not what he does - he declares himself Regent, and allies with the man who happens to be around when the entire Cousland line gets wiped out.

Whether or not Loghain conspired with Howe, it looks as if he did, and his protests to the contrary can easily seem rather hollow given his actions. He doesn't do anything to suggest he cares about the unity of Ferelden as anything but his Ferelden.

Meaning that the Bannorn went against what the Queen was okay with. I'd consider that treasonous.

Then you don't understand how the Landsmeet works, since it's their right to depose Anora if they so deem it (and, indeed, if you side with Alistair they lawfully do). If you call it treason, it's because you've got a fix on Loghain.

Two things:

1) Cailan killed himself by playing hero on the front lines, against Loghain's repeated advice not to.

2) Maric once told him that if he ever had a choice to save Ferelden or save the king, to choose the former over the latter.

And if Cailain left and decided that it was much safer to retreat, then announce his mariage to Celene, you think Loghain would have stayed back instead of a shove dagger in Cailan's throat? Please.

More importantly, it doesn't matter. Loghain came back with a dead king and declared himself Regent. This ranks as a 100 on the COUP D'ETAT scale.

Because if he surrendered himself to a Bannorn that feels he betrayed the king when they weren't there, the realistic scenario is that he'd be tried for high treason, imprisoned, stripped of his titles, and at worst executed.

Ignoring the fact that he is actually a traitor who betrayed his King, the point here is that all of his moves are to consolidate his own power. If he wants to martyr himself for Ferelden, then he should have the good grace to do what Anders does: accept that he's a criminal from the start and leave it to others to determine his fate.

But he doesn't do any of this. He comes back and says that his view of Ferelden is somehow the divinely ordained view of what should be, declares himself Regent, and then demands that all of the lords of Ferelden bow to him as (basically) their King.

Other than his bleeting that he loves the nation so much, there's very little evidence of it.

I like to think Howe had begun to plant seeds of doubt into Loghain's mind about Anora's capability to rule after Cailan's death -- someone she did care for.

Whatever fanfiction you want to write is your business. But this isn't a thread about the best excuse we can invent for Loghain.

No evidence that Howe had any part in why Loghain declared himself Regent and stayed there, but it's what I like to think and yes, that's just more of my headcanon.

Your fanfiction is your business,as per above.

No, he just doesn't want Orlais anywhere near Fereldan soil.

No, he wants a fight. His paranoid obsession with the Warden is that (s)he has a master in Orlais! Ignoring how separated from reality that is, he's clearly fighting a war against them, and he says as much to the entire Landsmeet when he calls them out.

Politically, yes he is an idiot.

No, full-stop, he's an idiot. Nothing that he does makes any sense even if we take the world exactly as he believes it. He goes on in what is the most self-destructive manner, as if he was following a road map on how to destroy a country.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Are they still there well after the battle at Ostagar has been lost, because even though your Warden becomes a Warden just moments before the battle your Warden doesnt learn about the Archdemon calling through the taint until well after the battle has been lost.

You may take issue with what I inferred from what you said, but those were your words, kiddo.

Let me spell it out for you.

After you become a Grey Warden, Duncan says "Take your time. When you're ready, meet me at the War council".

You don't have to go there right away.

You can go to the area where the wounded soldiers are and overhear them talking about how "he calls" and how "they can feel it inside" and all that other ****.

And considering the Warden gets a vision of the Archdemon and Duncan and Alistair explained before drinking the Joining that taking in the Taint is the source of why they can sense the Darkspawn and everything it's self-explanatory to everyone. 

Save for you.

All tainted beings are connected to the Darkspawn hive-mind, something a Dwarf Noble can find out from the codex on Ghouls after defeating the Blight Wolf in his origin story.

There you go.

Oh, and the Archdemon codex you get upon arrival in Ostagar tells you they're Tainted themselves.

See here

Or are you still going to go on some idiotic crusade about how I'm "using metagame knowledge"?

Honestly I dont really care, your whole argument is based on your Warden alone having the realization that Ostagar is unwinnable the moment the darkspawn blood hits his tounge which is perhaps an hour before the battle?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And Gandalf conveniently ignored the other points I had made, only addressing the single one he thought was metagame knowledge.

Because they honestly arent worth arguing due to the conflicting nature of the reports from Ostagar, I could also accuse you of convieniently ignoring scraps of information such as the fact that all the previous battles had been going so well that nobody actually believes that it is a blight, I could also accuse you of ignoring the fact that the battle was started on their own terms that suggests that even though the scouts were reporting bigger numbers as you claim they were still deemed acceptable enough to go ahead with the battle. I never saw anyone claiming that the battle was suicide due to the clearly overwhelming odds that only your character could see.

[Monica21]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Honestly I dont really care, your whole argument is based on your Warden alone having the realization that Ostagar is unwinnable the moment the darkspawn blood hits his tounge which is perhaps an hour before the battle?

Of course you don't care. You've ignored all other in-game evidence that doesn't support your theories, so why stop with this?

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Monica21 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Honestly I dont really care, your whole argument is based on your Warden alone having the realization that Ostagar is unwinnable the moment the darkspawn blood hits his tounge which is perhaps an hour before the battle?

Of course you don't care. You've ignored all other in-game evidence that doesn't support your theories, so why stop with this?

I really dont care enough to go back and read through this thread again just to see what you are talking about so feel free to compile a list of all this irrefutable evidence you think I have ignored. I am sure someone will get back to you eventually.

[Monica21]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
I really dont care enough to go back and read through this thread again just to see what you are talking about so feel free to compile a list of all this irrefutable evidence you think I have ignored. I am sure someone will get back to you eventually.

Believe it or not, I really do have better things to do than your work for you. But I do know that you're wrong, so just sit there in your wrongness and be wrong. Every argument that has been made against whatever wacky theory you've had has already been stated in plain language and right now you're at the Argument from Repetition, just hoping that if you say it enough times you'll be right. It doesn't quite work like that. Sorry, champ.

Modifié par Monica21, 05 janvier 2013 - 06:52 .

[LPPrince]

Alright guys, jeez. Relax. Can we try to tone down the passive aggressiveness a little bit?

For pages it seems the discussion's been geared not around, "Can we get an enemy like Loghain in DA3?" so much as, "What is Loghain like?"

Its understandable as there are opposing sides to the argument and everyone's going to perceive him a little bit differently buuut can we all be a little nicer to each other? That and bring it into DA3 a little bit more as it seems more of a DAO discussion than anything. I like DAO as much as most of the oldie forumites here but I'd hate to see the thread get moved/locked or whatever have you.

Anywho, as I said before, yes. An enemy I can understand, possibly even sympathize with, to the extreme maybe even AGREE with, much like Loghain? Definitely.

Just give my Inquisitor multiple options to touch on such feelings and agreements. As you can see, people here have varying feelings on a character like Loghain, meaning any well-made character in the future that can have vastly different opinions of him/her made by fans should hopefully have those feelings shared by the playable character echoing those feelings in-game.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Not to mention that this isn't even what you said above. Before, your justification was that Loghain just needed the coin. Now we've switched gears to the alienage being lost anyway?

I'm tired of this whole discussion, so just going to say, my point with this always and ever was that he needed coin to pay his armies (why do you think I went on for several replies talking about how Loghain still had an intact army?) and that selling the elves was both a desperate measure for coin and an expedient- killing several birds with one stone.  You can go back and check if you like.

And seeing as how Orlais left nicely when Loghain told them to leave, it seems that they were there for the blight.

We've already covered this.  You can't prove they didn't give up precisely because Loghain was still alive and had an army intact, while their welcome mat was removed.  It's all hindsight and speculation.

And since we're going around in circles and not even very productive ones, adieu.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:30 .

[Fiery Knight]

TJPags wrote...

This thread, as all Loghain threads so, amuses me.

However, I'm all out of desire to argue about him, so I'll leave it to Plaintiff, In Exile and others, who are doing an admirable job pointing out what is actually shown IN THE GAME.

Same could be said about The Ethernal Writer Redux, Chewin3, Addai67 and several other people here are doing an excellent job in pointing out what is actually show in the game.

And FYI almost everyone is speculating one or the other to strengthen their opinion. 

[Chewin]

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't consider it understandable. I expect high-ranking military men to have more to support their beliefs than "rumours". Rumours which, so far, have proven to be entirely false. There is no evidence that Empress Celene is anything other than a genuine friend to Cailan and Ferelden, and it is only a full decade later that we learn that some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden. Not all, probably not even the majority. But Loghain is incapable of making that distinction, because he is a racist.

No, there had always been tension between the two countries, and rumours surrounding Orlais wanting to retake Ferelden.

Of course, that's all the evidence there exists. Rumours. Any further than that goes to speculations. But even Loghain is not that paranoid to succumb to the thought to the Orlesian threat being mere imaginery.

Yes, Orlais has done terrible things in the past, but in the real world we do not blacklist entire countries forever based on one or even multiple travesties, because that is stupid and bigoted.

Neither do we always forget our grudges and open our arms to specific country. Bigoted perhaps, but not idiocy.

Cailan probably knows a lot about military tactics. He made one poor decision which, unfortunatly, led to his own death and had no effect on the larger outcome of the battle, assuming you believe Loghain's assertion that Ostagar was unwinnable. If the number of Darkspawn was truly unprecedented, then there was never any hope at all.

Based on what? He admitedly dismisses the increasing numbers of the darkspawn b/c he is blinded by the fact to forge a legend of his own, he states he is getting bored of Loghain strategies who is even far more experienced than Cailan, and instead his plan is basically to charge the Darkspawn head on.

I see no sign of him knowing "a lot about military tactics".

Clearly Loghain had a large say in tactics. The original plan was of his devising, and Cailan had ideas that were arguably very good (like waiting for the Orlesians), which Loghain shouted down.

No he didn't. Cailan had the final say.

Waiting for the Orlesians is a good idea? By the time they'd arrived, Ostagar would have already been finished. Loghain shouting them down is understandable, from his experience. More importanlty, Cailan 'dismissed' to wait for Arl Eamon, whose army is much closer than the Orlesians (if they had managed to make it in time). 

Cailan had the authority to tell Loghain to STFU, but he didn't exercise it. Probably out of respect. It would've behooved Loghain to treat Cailan and others with some respect, instead of bellowing insults at absolutely everybody all of the time.

Yet he doesn't listen to him. And that leads to his demise. 

As for Loghain and insults, I would also start if I had an incompetent fool who is basically there primarly for the glory.

Anora claims to have ruled Ferelden as the "brains" behind Cailan. A claim for which there is no evidence. The choices she makes in-game are extremely poor, they are not the choices of an intelligent woman, let alone a supposedly shrewd politician. And seeing as how Cailan's reign was short and he had acheived little of note, being the supposed mastermind behind his decisions is nothing to brag about.

Wrong. The codex states that Anora has been ruling Ferelden in Cailan's name, which he has himself happily has let her take over economy and politics, since he has little interest in such matter.

And what choices are you exactly referring to? The taking of the throne? That has little to do with governing, which under her Ferelden seem to have "flourished". More importantly, the epilogue slides proves how experienced she is on governing, in both court and law.

As it is, Cailan had ideas for social reform that Anora likely disagreed with, if she even knew about them. For instance, he confides to a City Elf Warden that he would like to dispose of the alienage and integrate the human and elven peoples.

From a social / racial equality point of view, that is a right thing. But from a political one, a poor decision since that leads to unrest between the nobility and court.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that any faith  Loghain had in Anora, justfied or not, evaporated completely in a time of crisis. I am not disputing whether or not his action is "understandable", I am stating that it was an objectively stupid action. He could've and should've backed down when the Bannorn rightfully abandoned him enmasse, but he is a blind fool.

Perhaps. But blinded by his arrogance, he believed that would have led to even more fighting between each other. Hence why he still remained "in power".


Maybe.

I understand Loghain's motivations perfectly well. I doubt that anyone could understand his actions. There is no logic behind them to understand. Declaring himself regent was stupid, poisoning Eamon was stupid and despicable, his promotion of Howe was stupid, his deal with Uldred was stupid, his decision to try and assassinate the Wardens was stupid, selling the elves into slavery was stupid and unforgiveable. Every single thing he does is stupid. These are not the actions of a tactical genius, these are the actions of a raving, drooling madman.

Which I completely disagree with, but I've already adressed this and doing it again will only lead to us talking in circles.

Loghain's statement is nonsense. Losing the love of his fellow countrymen was not an inevitability. He lost it through his own actions and has only himself to blame. He is not a misunderstood anti-hero. He is not some medieval Spiderman, falling victim to the shifting whims of a fickle media and a gullible populace. He betrayed Ferelden in every respect. He tore it apart with his vanity. He committed atrocious crimes of a staggering scale. He spilled enough Ferelden blood that he could easily drown in it. There is no motive or combination of motives sympathetic enough to absolve him.

No, he lost the country b/c the Bann's arrogance since didn't want to be ordered around by a commoner, and refused to listen and two wardens gave the already-discontented Banns another banner to rally under.

I disagree with your 'summary' over Loghian, but if that is what you believe then I see no point in me repeating myself over and over again. 

Modifié par Chewin3, 05 janvier 2013 - 10:29 .

[Wulfram]

In Exile wrote...

They up and grab your CE elf who they immediately diagnose with the plague

To be fair, you're a Warden.  You are in fact suffering from a terminal case of Blight sickness

[Commander Kurt]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

His hubris demands that he shoulder the burden alone, which is neither needed nor desired by anyone else, except men like Howe, who exploit Loghain's sickness for their own ends.

[/quote]

There´s nothing indicating it in-game, but all this stupidity makes me wonder if he is actually bored and really eager to be the hero again.

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...


[quote]Would Duncan sacrifice every warden in Ferelden just to stay friends with the king? To what end?[/quote]

He believed the Darkspawn could have been defeated at Ostagar. Loghain's army wouldn't have made a difference. Simple as that.
[/quote]

So Duncan was way off? I mean, that's possible, but is that what you're saying?

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...

[quote]And why is Loghain simply not refusing? He strikes me as the type of man who would fight for what he believes, and he sacrificed an army at Ostagar rather than put his foot down.[/quote]

Which he does, fighting Orlais. And as he states himself , he knew what he lost that day when he left the army fighting the Darskpawn to die. It was the right decision, but he wasn't happy about it.
[/quote]

"He knew what he lost" is not an explanation. The question was why? You're really not answering my questions.

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...

[quote]I guess there is the explanation that it wasn't until the battle had started that Loghain realized that there was no hope. But if so, what does this have to do with the wardens? Why blame them?[/quote]

Easy. The vast majority of the Wardens stationed at Ostagar were Orlesians. And as paranoid as he was about another Orlaisian invasion--which had recently been rumoured to happen--he saw the Wardens as a threat.
[/quote]

He lies about them being traitors to the crown because he saw them as a threat? To make the question clearer; if his retreat was justified, why does he lie about it being because of the wardens?

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...

[quote]In the landsmeet when he adresses the nobles after ostagar, he does say that the darkspawn "incursion" must be dealt with, but when questioned about his intentions he states that he has done what he must to secure Fereldens independence. He also adresses the fact that Orlais might take advantage right from the start, and that the darkspawn should be fought "sensibly".[/quote]

Exactly what it means. To calculate how exactly they'd fight the Darkspawn without turning their backs on the Orlesian threat.
[/quote]

He left the army to die in order to have more time for calculations? He was the general, why not calculate it BEFORE ostagar or refuse to go through with the battle if he felt that it needed more calculation?

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...

[quote]What does this mean? Bigger force to wipe them out with lesser casualties? Smaller force to save some strenght for when Orlais comes knocking?[/quote]
Now you are overly simplifying things. It's not just about gathering X amount of people at an Y location and have it dealt with. War is more complex than that.
[/quote]

This is just silly. I'm asking for Loghain's motives for leaving the army to die and your answer is that "war is complex". If you don't know, then that's fine. I don't know either.

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...
[quote]If bigger, is it then not moronic to let an entire army perish at ostagar?
If smaller, is it then not moronic to let an entire army perish at ostagar?[/quote]

Entire army? As far as I recall, Loghain saw that that didn't happen. The majority of the Wardens died, which were Orlesians and Loghain saw it as good riddance. The Ferelden soldiers were of course a pity.
[/quote]

The game is about "replacing the army lost at ostagar". And you're not answering the questions.

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...

[quote]Why did he let it happen? I get that he wanted Cailan dead, but he poisoned Eamon when he needed him out of the picture. Why sacrifice the army? [/quote]

He never wanted Cailan dead. His death was his own doing. It's not that hard to understand.[/quote]

So why did he sacrifice the army lost at ostagar?

[quote]Chewin3 wrote...

[quote]He just seems like a moron to me, however I try to look at it.[/quote]

Guess you are looking at it wrong, then.
[/quote]

How are you looking at it, aside from "war is complex" and.. well, that's pretty much the only thing you've given me resembling an answer.

[Commander Kurt]

And, regarding the threat from Orlais. To be fair, there is a significant amount of data in-game suggesting that darkspawn could be worth taking seriously as well. One of them being that the latter is actually INVADING, RIGHT NOW.