597 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorrieb]

Addai67 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...
Send assassins to kill you.

He does, actually.  After the 3rd treaty quest, the camp is attacked right after the Warden and Alistair have dreamt that the archdemon saw them, and in the Dalish origin it's clear that the attack is pretty personal.

Mentioned above. 

By your measure Loghain isn't an antagonist, either, because he only twice directly strikes at the Warden and sending Zevran wasn't his idea.

He directly opposes the Warden, is the point, not whether he tries to kill you. And it isn't my measure:

http://tvtropes.org/...n/TheAntagonist

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...
Again, an antagonist is one who actually does something to hinder the protagonist. 

The Archdemon does not:

• Do anything to prevent you from recruiting the dwarves.
• Place any obstacles in your recruitment of the mages.
• Try to stop you from recruiting the dalish.

Loghain does not do any of the above either.

Take measures against Arl Eamon.

This doesn't hinder you. You know who hinders you? Bann Teagan, who should have simply committed Redcliffe forces to you anyway and sent his own people on quest for the urn.

Send assassins to kill you.

Howe hired Zevran. Loghain hadn't even thought of it. Loghain left people in Lothering, yes, but that's about as relevant as the darkspawn attack on your camp.

Put a bounty on your head.
Declare you a traitor.

Yes, quite a terrible hindrance that bounty was, wasn't it? Constantly fighting off people who would try to claim it... oh, except that never happened. That's hardly active involvement in an attempt at the Warden's downfall.

I understand that you're angry, even though I said 'no offense', but it can't be helped if you insist on using words to mean what they don't mean.

No, here's the thing: you want Loghain to be the bad guy, except that he isn't. You just don't like him. Nobody ever said that your reasons for disliking him were invalid, just that they disagreed. You're going to rather lengthy positions and hairsplitting over what an antagonist is and does and does not do and how that relates to Loghain to prove pretty much nothing.

Edited to add:
Here's why it's hair-splitting. This started when you stated that Loghain was the "main antagonist" through the game. I disagreed. Loghain barely does anything to oppose you, just like the Archdemon. You spend a heck of a lot more time fighting darkspawn than you do dealing with anything Loghain sends your way, which is really just Zevran. The Archdemon is opposing your goal of saving Ferelden. Loghain does not oppose your goal of saving Ferelden, he just doesn't think you're actually doing it. Hence, the Archdemon is the "main antagonist."

Modifié par Monica21, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Addai]

Dorrieb wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...n/TheAntagonist

Because TV Tropes is the fount of all wisdom.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
No, here's the thing: you want Loghain to be the bad guy, except that he isn't. You just don't like him.

You are wrong about this. Obviously you're very passionate about it, but you misjudge me.

Here's why it's hair-splitting. This started when you stated that Loghain was the "main antagonist" through the game. I disagreed. Loghain barely does anything to oppose you, just like the Archdemon. You spend a heck of a lot more time fighting darkspawn than you do dealing with anything Loghain sends your way, which is really just Zevran. The Archdemon is opposing your goal of saving Ferelden. Loghain does not oppose your goal of saving Ferelden, he just doesn't think you're actually doing it. Hence, the Archdemon is the "main antagonist."

And you still do not understand what 'antagonist' means. The Archdemon is a distant and unknown figure. We don't know what it thinks, how it feels, or for most of the game even what it's doing. The darkspawn are a faceless horde. When you meet them they mindlessly attack you and you kill them, but there is no indication (except for that attack on your camp, yes, Addai, I'm very much aware, thank you) that they're even aware of your existence, let alone trying to stop you.

It isn't hair-splitting because the only character who is always there as an obstacle in your path is Loghain. There are others, but they are each dealt with in their respective chapters. Only Loghain is there from start to finish as an obstacle for the Warden to overcome, making him the Main Antagonist. 

Whether he is the 'bad guy' or not is arguable, but you don't even want him to be the antagonist. Here's the thing: you want Loghain to be the good guy, except that he isn't. You just like him.

[LPPrince]

Fact of the matter is Loghain is AN antagonist in the game with redeemable qualities. He's not the "big bad", so he becomes a bit of a secondary antagonist, even though you see him more than Archy throughout the game. Howe being a tertiary antagonist.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Random thought: For Morrigan's quest, let's say I held off on killing Flemeth until I recruited Loghain. Then I took him with me. Does he happen to say anything to her, or vice-versa? I doubt they do, but it just occurred to me -- I'm surprised I didn't think of it in the past.

It is possible to do it then, but he doesn't have any comments.

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
No, here's the thing: you want Loghain to be the bad guy, except that he isn't. You just don't like him.

You are wrong about this. Obviously you're very passionate about it, but you misjudge me.

Well, I'm not the one who spent pages talking about my dad (my dad!) and elves, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

And you still do not understand what 'antagonist' means.

And you still give Loghain too much credit.

The Archdemon is a distant and unknown figure. We don't know what it thinks, how it feels, or for most of the game even what it's doing. The darkspawn are a faceless horde. When you meet them they mindlessly attack you and you kill them, but there is no indication (except for that attack on your camp, yes, Addai, I'm very much aware, thank you) that they're even aware of your existence, let alone trying to stop you.

Why are you fighting so many darkspawn? Because there's a Blight. Why is this a Blight? Because there's an Archdemon. This is simple.

It isn't hair-splitting because the only character who is always there as an obstacle in your path is Loghain. There are others, but they are each dealt with in their respective chapters. Only Loghain is there from start to finish as an obstacle for the Warden to overcome, making him the Main Antagonist.

Loghain is not a character always in my path. Loghain does nothing to prevent me from getting treaties. The only time I see anyone mention him is when a random messenger yells at me outside Ostagar. That's it.

Whether he is the 'bad guy' or not is arguable, but you don't even want him to be the antagonist. Here's the thing: you want Loghain to be the good guy, except that he isn't. You just like him.

Yeah, I do like him. But I've never claimed he was the good guy. Now you're giving me too much credit.

[Addai]

Dorrieb wrote...

And you still do not understand what 'antagonist' means. The Archdemon is a distant and unknown figure. We don't know what it thinks, how it feels, or for most of the game even what it's doing. The darkspawn are a faceless horde. When you meet them they mindlessly attack you and you kill them, but there is no indication (except for that attack on your camp, yes, Addai, I'm very much aware, thank you) that they're even aware of your existence, let alone trying to stop you.

Are you seriously arguing that the darkspawn aren't aware of Grey Wardens or consider them enemies?  Have you played the game at all?  Apparently you didn't ask for Flemeth's advice about darkspawn.  Ignoring the fact that darkspawn consider anyone enemies who isn't them (Cersei would be proud).

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:09 .

[legbamel]

The fact that Loghain is so much more visible doesn't make him more of an antagonist. In truth, the only people who stop you from gathering your armies are the people who refuse to comply with the treaties until you've solved their respective (admittedly-significant) problems. Loghain talks about being antagonist, essentially, but he's remarkably ineffective at acting against the Warden. The Archdemon knows about your party but, outside of a single raid, is even less effective at direct action.

Unless you're a human noble and Howe is really out to get you, personally, there really isn't an overarching antagonist that is the big bad in a majority of the story. The Archdemon and Loghain are there for plot but, as actual characters, have very little effect on your day-to-day activity throughout the game. There are a series of antagonists, one for each treaty.

[TJPags]

Just a point regarding antagonists, Darkspawn, Archdemons, and Loghain.

As you play DA:O, you are a GW. Your job is to stop a Blight.

Now, Darkspawn and Archdemons have something (quite a bit, just bear with me) to do with a Blight. Loghain has NOTHING to do with a Blight.

Loghain has to do with control/rule of Ferelden. Which has NOTHING to do with a Blight. As a GW, your job is NOT to help decide who rules what country. Your job, as I mentioned above, is to stop a Blight.

Frankly, even as someone who can't stand the Loghain character as presented in-game, if at any point he had offered to assist me in fighting the Darkspawn and killing the Archdemon, I'd have helped him secure the throne for whoever he wanted, however it needed to be done. Same way I schlepped through the Deep Roads for the Dwarves.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...

Why are you fighting so many darkspawn? Because there's a Blight. Why is this a Blight? Because there's an Archdemon. This is simple.

Which is why the Archdemon is your main enemy, which is not the same as being the main antagonist. Is it really so difficult to understand that these words mean different things?

Loghain is not a character always in my path. Loghain does nothing to prevent me from getting treaties. The only time I see anyone mention him is when a random messenger yells at me outside Ostagar. That's it.

You are wanted for treason throughout Ferelden because Loghain declared you an outlaw. Not that anyone seems too keen on actually taking you in, but I'd say that definitely counts as 'trying to stop you'. In Lothering his soldiers try to kill you, as well as some really stupid or desperate refugees a bit later. You need Arl Eamon's help, but he's been poisoned... by Loghain. You need the mages help, but the tower is a shambles, indirectly because of... Loghain. You go to the dwarves and bounty hunters try to stop you... hired by Loghain, whose envoy also tries it on when you reach the gates. The Brecilian Forest is blessedly Loghain-free, but then in Denerim you're captured and sent to the dungeons of horrible torture... by Loghain.

Yeah, I do like him. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie] But I've never claimed he was the good guy. Now you're giving me too much credit.

Well your posts are so well-written and thoughtful that one naturally assumes a greater knowledgeability than you probably intended to imply. : )

[Dabrikishaw]

Loghian would be a Hate Sink if anything, but still an antagonist.

[Fiacre]

Considering that the Archdemon tries to kill you and also opposes your main goal (rather strongly) of killing it and ending the Blight, what with it wanting to destroy stuff and fighting a whole, relatively big, battle with you at Denerim, he fits the definition of an antagonist, which, as the Oxford dictionary tells me, is someone "who strongly opposes somebody/something".

And, incidentally, Cauthrien is not unbeatable, so being captured and sent to Fort Drakon (where apparently nothing happens to you) is not a given.

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

You are wanted for treason throughout Ferelden because Loghain declared you an outlaw. Not that anyone seems too keen on actually taking you in, but I'd say that definitely counts as 'trying to stop you'. In Lothering his soldiers try to kill you, as well as some really stupid or desperate refugees a bit later. You need Arl Eamon's help, but he's been poisoned... by Loghain. You need the mages help, but the tower is a shambles, indirectly because of... Loghain. You go to the dwarves and bounty hunters try to stop you... hired by Loghain, whose envoy also tries it on when you reach the gates. The Brecilian Forest is blessedly Loghain-free, but then in Denerim you're captured and sent to the dungeons of horrible torture... by Loghain.

The bounty is kind of a pathetic attempt to stop you though, wouldn't you say? Almost everyone rolls out the red carpet when they realize who you are. Eamon and the mages are only indirectly related to you. Neither is a result of Loghain's direct opposition of you. Yes, you have to deal with the consequences, but they are not consequences of Loghin putting stumbling blocks in the protaganist's way. Again, you run into two groups of bounty hunters across the length and breadth of Ferelden. Two. As for Loghain's envoy outside Orzammar, he runs away when I look at him funny. Hardly worth my time. And yes, you are sent to Fort Drakon, but because you killed Howe, not because Loghain is directly opposing you just because.

Edited because I remembered wrong.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:36 .

[legbamel]

Fiacre wrote...
Considering that the Archdemon tries to kill you and also opposes your main goal (rather strongly) of killing it and ending the Blight, what with it wanting to destroy stuff and fighting a whole, relatively big, battle with you at Denerim, he fits the definition of an antagonist, which, as the Oxford dictionary tells me, is someone "who strongly opposes somebody/something".

And, incidentally, Cauthrien is not unbeatable, so being captured and sent to Fort Drakon (where apparently nothing happens to you) is not a given.

With little exception, however, the Archdemon isn't directly opposing you.  It simply does what Archdemons do.  It isn't until the end (except that one attack on your camp) that it pays any attention to your merry band.

The Ser Cauthrien incident need not include capture and torture to be an example of how Loghain moves against the PC directly as opposed to just going about his business which happens to be something that conflicts with the Warden's goals.  The bounty is ineffectual but still direct.  Zevran couldn't be much more direct.  It may have been Howe's idea but Loghain sounded, to me, like he agreed to it no matter his later reservations.

Certainly, without the Archdemon there would be no Blight and no game.  Without the battle at Ostagar, there would not as well, which leads to Cailan looking like an idiot for insisting the fight happen there and then and Loghain looking incompetent for not knowing what the fort and its surroundings contained before the poop hit the blades.

Edited again to add that Loghain certainly doesn't oppose ending the Blight.  He opposes the Warden, not his or her overall goal.

Modifié par legbamel, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:32 .

[Fiacre]

Do we know it was only that one raid on the camp (and actually, attacking my camp seems more severe than some random dude attacking me while I'm on the road. Particularly since that was actually Howe's idea, not Loghain's), considering that there are a bunch of random encounters involving Darkspawn -- at least three of which involve helping a party of our allies fighting them off. (Also, it came up further up, there are Darkspawn in the Brecilian Forest before nature of the Beast ends, and I think there were at least two Ogres.)

I mean, I'm not saying that Loghain isn't an antagonist until his defeat at the Landsmeet, he definitely is, but I don't think he's the *main* antagonist. The Archdemon is the bigger obstacle to our goal, directly opposing us by leading the darkspawn and starting a Blight. The Archdemon is the one who even attacks our camp -- and while ineffectual, Zev's ambush was hardly more effective. He may possibly have been attacking our allies (and us) during these random encounters. And, you know, battle of Denerim. Yeah, he'd want to do that anyway, but since we want to stop the Blight and he wants it to go on, we're directly at odds and, well, oppose each other. And since the Blight, not Fereldan's political problems is our main goal, I'd say the Archdemon is the main antagonist.

I mean, by the same logic used to say that that title goes to Loghain, one could argue that, at least for an HN, Howe is the main antagonist. Especially, since at least one thing that's used for Loghain was Howe's idea, and the whole Cauthrien thing wouldn't have happened if Howe hadn't taken Anora captive.

[Dorrieb]

Fiacre wrote...

Considering that the Archdemon tries to kill you...

When? Only at the end, and the Warden attacks the Archdemon, not the other way around.

Monica21 wrote...

The bounty is kind of a pathetic attempt to stop you though, wouldn't you say?

Absolutely.

Almost everyone rolls out the red carpet when they realize who you are. Eamon and the mages are only indirectly related to you. Neither is a result of Loghain's direct opposition of you. Yes, you have to deal with the consequences, but they are not consequences of Loghin putting stumbling blocks in the protaganist's way.

Quoting again: '(The Antagonist doesn't) have to be a Big Bad, an Anti-Villain, or even morally objectionable in any sense (though they often are); they merely have to oppose The Protagonist

Again, you run into two groups of bounty hunters across the length and breadth of Ferelden. Two. As for Loghain's envoy outside Orzammar, he runs away when I look at him funny. Hardly worth my time. And yes, you are sent to Fort Drakon, but because you killed Howe, not because Loghain is directly opposing you just because.

No one said 'just because'. Nevertheless, for whatever reasons, rightly or wrongly, Loghain opposes you. And since you are the protagonist, that makes him the antagonist. Although I suppose you could look at the story from the other end, in which case Loghain would be the protagonist and you would be the antagonist opposing him and foiling him at every turn. But that isn't the point of view from which it is written.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 06 janvier 2013 - 11:39 .

[Monica21]

As far as being arrested goes, Loghain opposes you because you killed a man in his home. It doesn't matter if you were justified. You broke the law. That's why I said he's not opposing you "just because."

I'm tired, and this is annoying. You believe Loghain to be the "biggest" antagonist in-game and I don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, so enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[Fiacre]

Dorrieb wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

Considering that the Archdemon tries to kill you...

When? Only at the end, and the Warden attacks the Archdemon, not the other way around.

What? So the Archdemon having his minion attack your camp doesn't count as attemting to kill you, but Loghain agreeing to Howe's idea to use Zevran -- whose attempt was equally as pathetic as that raid that attacked the camp, let's be honest -- does for him?

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

Are they though? Between the battle at Ostagar (the beginning) and the battle at Denerim (the end), name a single major story development involving them.

A Paragon of Her Kind.

Honnleath

Shale's side quest.

The last two are more main story developments involving an extra character and aren't required, but you do save a town from the Darkspawn and you kill more while helping Shale with her past.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Even though I disagree strongly with his actions towards the elves in the Alienage, he was certainly someone who was trying his best to save Ferelden, and he will admit his failings to The Warden (which is why he's willing to sacrifice his life to defeat the Archdemon, to atone for his mistakes). The Wardens are willing to do whatever is necessary to stop the Blight, even doing some extreme things (as Alistair admits at Ostagar to the protagonist) - no different than Loghain's mindset at the time of Origins.

It's sad that many people seem to forget the bolded when they want to make Loghain appear as if he can't be redeemed. Wardens will sacrifice entire villages/towns/cities in their efforts to destroy the Darkspawn -- something the Warden can do twice -- and Loghain was no different.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 janvier 2013 - 12:59 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's sad that many people seem to forget the bolded when they want to make Loghain appear as if he can't be redeemed. Wardens will sacrifice entire villages/towns/cities in their efforts to destroy the Darkspawn -- something the Warden can do twice -- and Loghain was no different.

That isn't really relevant to the warden. They might find the wardens doing that unredeemable as well.

[legbamel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Are they though? Between the battle at Ostagar (the beginning) and the battle at Denerim (the end), name a single major story development involving them.

A Paragon of Her Kind.

Honnleath

Shale's side quest.

The last two are more main story developments involving an extra character and aren't required, but you do save a town from the Darkspawn and you kill more while helping Shale with her past.

And in those examples you find Darkspawn that fight with you because you go there.  They aren't directed against you.  Saying that those actions are directed at the protagonist specifically is like saying all the Darkspawn in Thedas left the Deep Roads to kill the Warden (except, of course, those the Archdemon was prescient enough to leave down there).  The Darkspawn were there because, in Shale's stories, they're all over the Deep Roads and a fair chunk of Ferelden and, in Branca's story, because she's in the Deep Roads where they originate and trying to use them for her own aims (failing or not).

Those are not attempts to kill or otherwise stop the Warden by an antagonist.  They are setting-appropriate stories.

Edited to clarify that I do, of course, think that the Archdemon is an antagonist.  I just think that Loghain acts as a more compelling one through most of the game.

Modifié par legbamel, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:46 .

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm getting very tired of your tone. You're basically venting and now you're contradicting yourself.

"it's easier to throw out ad hominems implying that you're too passionate about a subject to argue it coherently than atually refute any of your points.

If hindsight proves the Orlesians never intended to invade, but hindsight can't prove Loghain was right to have concerns about Orlesian ambitions, then the fact is- we just don't know.

Lady, that's what I've been saying. Your side is the one trotting out "LOGHAIN WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG", based on evidence from years in the future, which not only doesn't support their assertion but allows for a completely different interpretation, like mine. 

He made a decision which he admits in the end was an error, i.e. rating the Orlesian threat as higher than the darkspawn.  People with great responsibility have to make decisions with limited information and yes, they have human weaknesses too, but that doesn't mean they don't have good reasons for those decisions.  See if your "lesser mortal" mind can process that.

Ha! If that was his only "mistake", I might actually let him live.

I've noticed that if people dislike a character, they tend to see their flaws as fixed and inalienable.  The person can never change and is defined by his or her failings.  Whereas if you like a character or are neutral to them, you're willing to see them in a 360 light.  That is what this discussion is about, providing a 180 to the haterade.

Do you notie that about yourself, or just people who disagree with you?

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lady...

You may not agree with Addai, but the very least that can be asked of you is to be polite to her.