597 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lady...

You may not agree with Addai, but the very least that can be asked of you is to be polite to her.

Point taken.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lady, that's what I've been saying. Your side is the one trotting out "LOGHAIN WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG", based on evidence from years in the future, which not only doesn't support their assertion but allows for a completely different interpretation, like mine.

Fine, junior.  Point made.

Do you notie that about yourself, or just people who disagree with you?

Yep I do notice that about my own hatred of, say, Leliana or Wynne or Hawke.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:25 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's sad that many people seem to forget the bolded when they want to make Loghain appear as if he can't be redeemed. Wardens will sacrifice entire villages/towns/cities in their efforts to destroy the Darkspawn -- something the Warden can do twice -- and Loghain was no different.

Well, no. That's not how that works. That's the entire point I've been getting at. You can agree that Loghain's motivation isn't "LOLZ EBIL" without agreeing that any of his actions are justified, or even that their sensible.

If the DA:A Warden decided to torch Amaranthine at the start of the game because she thinks they're working toghether with the talking darkspawn because the final battle against the archdemon unhigned her, maybe it's relatable and understandable, but it's still unjustifiable.

[Dorrieb]

legbamel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Are they though? Between the battle at Ostagar (the beginning) and the battle at Denerim (the end), name a single major story development involving them.

A Paragon of Her Kind.

Honnleath

Shale's side quest.

The last two are more main story developments involving an extra character and aren't required, but you do save a town from the Darkspawn and you kill more while helping Shale with her past.

And in those examples you find Darkspawn that fight with you because you go there.  They aren't directed against you.  Saying that those actions are directed at the protagonist specifically is like saying all the Darkspawn in Thedas left the Deep Roads to kill the Warden (except, of course, those the Archdemon was prescient enough to leave down there).  The Darkspawn were there because, in Shale's stories, they're all over the Deep Roads and a fair chunk of Ferelden and, in Branca's story, because she's in the Deep Roads where they originate and trying to use them for her own aims (failing or not).

Those are not attempts to kill or otherwise stop the Warden by an antagonist.  They are setting-appropriate stories.

Exactly. As the Grey Warden, of course you care very much about the Archdemon, but it doesn't appear that the Archdemon cares about you.

Monica21 wrote...
You may not agree with Addai, but the very least that can be asked of you is to be polite to her.

Seconded. Let's all be civil.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
I'm tired, and this is annoying. You believe Loghain to be the "biggest" antagonist in-game and I don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, so enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Hang on. Before you go, here's one last bit from Mr and Mrs. Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia....Loghain_Mac_Tir

Teyrn
Loghain Mac Tir is one of the main antagonists of Dragon Age: Origins.
He was King Maric's right hand during Ferelden's war against the
Orlesians. First seen at Ostagar, he is introduced as the general who
provides strategies for Maric's son, Cailan, in the defense of the realm...

It's not just me, you see. The world at large has no problem identifying Loghain as one of the main antagonists (and not the main antagonist. I stand corrected).

[Addai]

Dorrieb wrote...
Exactly. As the Grey Warden, of course you care very much about the Archdemon, but it doesn't appear that the Archdemon cares about you.

I repeat that I think this discussion is kind of silly, but have you played Darkspawn Chronicles?  You get to hear the AD's thoughts, and the Warden is very much on his mind.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:36 .

[Dorrieb]

Addai67 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...
Exactly. As the Grey Warden, of course you care very much about the Archdemon, but it doesn't appear that the Archdemon cares about you.

I repeat that I think this discussion is kind of silly, but have you played Darkspawn Chronicles?  You get to hear the AD's thoughts, and the Warden is very much on his mind.

As a matter of fact no, I haven't, and I suppose that could make a difference.

[Commander Kurt]

Chewin3 wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
So Duncan was way off? I mean, that's possible, but is that what you're saying?

That's was how I intepreted it, yes. Though I have no clue what you meant with "staying friends with the king".

But to me at least, there is nothing in-game suggesting that Duncan is inept. He is presented as a bad-ass, much as Loghain is. The only thing suggesting that Loghain quitting the field is inconsequential to the overall outcome of the battle is people wanting to think so. Everyone in-game questions it and/or sees him as a traitor for it (even Cauthrien, his most avid supporter). And I get that that could just be because he was supposed to die if his king demanded it, but as I say, there is nothing in-game saying that Duncan was wrong and Loghain was right.

Chewin3 wrote...

"He knew what he lost" is not an explanation. The question was why? You're really not answering my questions.

B/c the battle was unwinnable. I've stated this several times already.

If he knew beforehand that the battle was unwinnable, it would not have made any sense. But your saying that he learned this while watching the battle. Fair enough. Still, there are other objections if that is the case (as I will explain further down).

Chewin3 wrote...

He lies about them being traitors to the crown because he saw them as a threat? To make the question clearer; if his retreat was justified, why does he lie about it being because of the wardens?

He didn't justify his retreat b/c of the Wardens, nor do I recall him saying the Orlesians were traitors to the crown. He simply blamed their presence in Ferelden, and was 'relieved' to have them 'gone'. 

Duncan wants to wait for the orlesian wardens, meaning that they are not killed at ostagar. It's ferelden wardens. But anyway, he has declared the wardens traitors, it's right there in the game. It is also clearly a lie. Teagan says something to the effect of "Do I believe that Cailan charged headlessly into battle and the wardens betrayed the king? Hardly." Why does Loghain lie about this?

Chewin3 wrote...

He left the army to die in order to have more time for calculations? He was the general, why not calculate it BEFORE ostagar or refuse to go through with the battle if he felt that it needed more calculation?

 

You are basically contradicting yourself here. He stated this during the Landsmeet, as you said yourself, yet now you claim he did it before the Ostagar event. 

It was Cailan who rallied the troops to fight the Darkspawn, not Loghain, which he pressumably saw as a mistake. And it wasn't until the darkspawn showed themselves during the battle that he noticed it was unwinnable.

He should have calculated it before the battle was what I meant. But you're stating that Loghain didn't have any idea what they were up against before the battle had started. Fair enough.

Chewin3 wrote...

This is just silly. I'm asking for Loghain's motives for leaving the army to die and your answer is that "war is complex". If you don't know, then that's fine. I don't know either.

In that case, you did a poor job describing that, since from what I gathered you asked what Loghain meant with fighting the Darkspawn 'sensibly' and stated that there where only two options to deal with them.

Loghains motives for leaving the battlefield I have stated several times already: the battle was unwinnable.

I'm sorry, so what option is he going for? I'm asking you because you're claiming that this plan of his isn't stupid. As I see it, there are two alternatives open to him.

But I'm failing to make my point clear. If the battle is unwinnable and he learns this only after the battle has started, then;
1. Why is Loghain lying about it to the nobles (saying that the wardens betrayed the king)?
2. Why is Loghain saying that he did what he had to to ensure fereldens independance? Didn't he do it because the battle was already lost?
3. Why is noone else in the game agreeing with him that the battle was lost (such as cauthrien, who was there and is clearly shocked when he sounds the retreat)?

It may seem like the questions are changing, but I was not sure if the argument was that Loghain knew the battle was fruitless before hand or if he learned it during the battle. The original post was adressing both scenarios.

[TEWR]

Commander Kurt wrote...

The only thing suggesting that Loghain quitting the field is inconsequential to the overall outcome of the battle is people wanting to think so.

No. You can actually overhear dialogue of how people are skeptical of this battle's possible victory -- Loghain himself is described as doubtful by the guard at Ostagar's entrance.

You can see the strength of the horde in-game, as it stretches all the way back into the mountains.

You can see how Cailan ****ed up the battle plan with his own "glorious" version.

You're told by Alistair that you've missed the signal to light the beacon due to the Tower's invasion.

Why does Loghain lie about this?

Because he actually believes it. Check the earliest pages of this thread for my long-ass rant on how Ostagar was unwinnable -- which I will have to edit at some point to add in all the stuff that can be easily missed.

But you're stating that Loghain didn't have any idea what they were up against before the battle had started. Fair enough.

This is correct. While Loghain and everyone else knew the horde was getting stronger with each engagement, they expected the numbers they'd use in the battle we take part in to be not so much that victory was impossible.

The Darkspawn had other ideas. They brought out their full might.

1. Why is Loghain lying about it to the nobles (saying that the wardens betrayed the king)?

Because he believes it. And he does tell them about Cailan's reckless drive for glory that killed him -- which he believes the Wardens allowed by failing to speak up -- indicating that he has in fact told them about Ostagar.

People are skeptical still, though.

2. Why is Loghain saying that he did what he had to to ensure fereldens independance? Didn't he do it because the battle was already lost?

He says that in terms of all of the things he's done, including his retreat. Everything he's done was in the attempt to preserve Ferelden's independence and defeat the Darkspawn.

But things went to hell.

3. Why is noone else in the game agreeing with him that the battle was lost (such as cauthrien, who was there and is clearly shocked when he sounds the retreat)?

You find a few soldiers who agree with him. The one in the bar at Lothering agrees that Teyrn Loghain saved them from a massacre and Ser Landry does too IIRC.

A few gossips will state that Teyrn Loghain made the right call. Though they'll also state they're suspicious of him -- doesn't help that it's the same models with the same voices in all of the locations gossips are at.

I think Ser Cauthrien still does believe it, but the Warden's capable of convincing her that Loghain hasn't gone down the right path since then. I don't recall her ever questioning Ostagar's ability to be won after the battle.

Even her "But what about the king, should we not --" during the battle could be taken as a "Shouldn't we save the king before retreating?" as opposed to a "Shouldn't we charge like the plan told us to do?"

[TEWR]

And in those examples you find Darkspawn that fight with you because you go there

But that wasn't the original request. The request was "name a single major story development involving them", not "name a single major story development where they're the primary focus".

Indeed, I'd argue that the Dwarven quest still has the Darkspawn as the main focus, because of everything that's going on. The civil war in Orzammar directly affects the ability for the Dwarves and Ferelden to fight back the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn are the primary reason for why Branka went out in search of the Anvil. 

Hell, let's throw in the Dwarf Noble Origin and the Dalish Elf Origin. I'd consider those to be major story developments that involve the Darkspawn, because of what happens in both.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
I'm tired, and this is annoying. You believe Loghain to be the "biggest" antagonist in-game and I don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, so enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Hang on. Before you go, here's one last bit from Mr and Mrs. Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia....Loghain_Mac_Tir

Teyrn
Loghain Mac Tir is one of the main antagonists of Dragon Age: Origins.
He was King Maric's right hand during Ferelden's war against the
Orlesians. First seen at Ostagar, he is introduced as the general who
provides strategies for Maric's son, Cailan, in the defense of the realm...

It's not just me, you see. The world at large has no problem identifying Loghain as one of the main antagonists (and not the main antagonist. I stand corrected).

Wikipedia is an absolutely horrid source for information. I'm a librarian, so I know. Anyone can change a wikipedia page. So, no, this is not "the world at large." This is the opinion of the person who wrote the entry.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
Wikipedia is an absolutely horrid source for information. I'm a librarian, so I know. Anyone can change a wikipedia page. So, no, this is not "the world at large." This is the opinion of the person who wrote the entry.

Fair enough. Since you're a librarian, can you point me to a better source of information, which might contradict this?

Edit: Well I can't find anything that I would consider more reliable than Wikipedia, but it does seem to be common knowledge:

http://villains.wiki...Loghain_Mac_Tir

Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir is the main antagonist for most of Dragon Age: Origins. He is a leader of the Ferelden army who...

http://www.giantbomb...ghain/94-11650/

Loghain is one of the most important characters of the Dragon Age franchise. He is a major antagonist in Dragon Age: Origins, and much of the main story plot is centered...

http://tvtropes.org/...TheStolenThrone

Also prominent is Loghain Mac Tyr, a main antagonist of Origins. As Maric's best friend...

http://www.gameinfor...15/2134230.aspx

Loghain’s choices as the primary antagonist in the first game means...

Of course it is quite possible that we are all wrong and you are right. This proves nothing except that, generally speaking, people did identify Loghain as the antagonist without controversy.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[Dorrieb]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Even her "But what about the king, should we not --" during the battle could be taken as a "Shouldn't we save the king before retreating?" as opposed to a "Shouldn't we charge like the plan told us to do?"

Well, um... shouldn't they?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But that wasn't the original request. The request was "name a single major story development involving them", not "name a single major story development where they're the primary focus".

Okay, my bad... but you're taking advantage of it. I might as well have said 'name a single development involving air' and you could have answered 'all of it, since the Warden is breathing the whole time'. Obviously air is present, but the story is not actually about air, but rather about your little brother murdering your older brother and stitching you up for it.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:52 .

[In Exile]

Commander Kurt wrote...
But to me at least, there is nothing in-game suggesting that Duncan is inept.

Duncan's master plan is to have all of the GWs, save Alistair and the Warden (and, as far as we know, only because Cailain said so) fight on foot in the Vanguard. This is the entire Order in Ferelden, when he knows that there is a Blight and knows that the only way to end it is to have a GW kill the archdemon. His actual plan is to agree to have the GWs in a position where they can't reach the archdemon, they're all in mortal peril if the enemy overwhelms them, and then proceeds to do absolutely nothing to convince anyone that the GWs are worth a damn as anything more than shock troops.

[Monica21]

[quote]Dorrieb wrote...
http://villains.wiki...Loghain_Mac_Tir
[quote]Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir is the main antagonist for most of Dragon Age: Origins. He is a leader of the Ferelden army who...[/quote][/quote]
[quote]nearly all the villains and hardships they encounter are in some way
caused by Loghain or at least done by someone supporting him[/quote]
Also from the above link, and not an indicator of an antagonist. The things you encounter are not because Loghain has put hardships in the PCs path. There's also a reference in that page to a "massive fight" taking place duing the Landsmeet, which indicates that the contributor has exceptionally limited knowledge of the Landsmeet possibilities, and I can conclude that the same contributor has limited knowledge of the game.

[quote]http://www.giantbomb.com/teyrn-loghain/94-11650/
[quote]Loghain is one of the most important characters of the Dragon Age franchise. He is a major antagonist in Dragon Age: Origins, and much of the main story plot is centered...[/quote][/quote]
You left out the rest. "Much of the main story plot is centered around his betrayal of King Cailan." If a contributor believes that Cailan ws betrayed, then he or she will put Loghain in the role of "major antagonist."

[quote]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheStolenThrone
[quote]Also prominent is Loghain Mac Tyr, a main antagonist of Origins. As Maric's best friend...[/quote][/quote]
Goodness, I have a different opinion that TVTropes. Whatever will I do.

[quote]http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/08/15/2134230.aspx
[quote]Loghain’s choices as the primary antagonist in the first game means...[/quote][/quote]
[quote]Loghain’s choices as the primary antagonist in the first game means that the player will have to make a choice between avenging the death of his mentor and forgiving Loghain in favor of strengthening the forces
of Ferelden.[/quote]
First, my PC never has to see Duncan as a mentor. Many PCs hate Duncan. Second, forgiving Loghain has nothing to do with sparing his life. I've said that before. Third, none of that is an indicator that Loghain is the primary antagonist, given that your job is to defeat the Blight.

[quote]Of course it is quite possible that we are all wrong and you are right. This proves nothing except that, generally speaking, people did identify Loghain as the antagonist without controversy. [/quote]
Sure. A lot of people have a lot of opinions. There are several people in this thread who do not identify Loghain as the primary antagonist. If your intention is to continue googling "Loghain + antagonist" for as long as this thread exists though, feel free, but you're not going to change my mind.

Edited to add that shared opinions do not equal common knowledge. Loghain's position as primary or secondary antagonist is entirely dependent on opinion and not on any in-game proof.

Modifié par Monica21, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:21 .

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Even her "But what about the king, should we not --" during the battle could be taken as a "Shouldn't we save the king before retreating?" as opposed to a "Shouldn't we charge like the plan told us to do?"

Well, um... shouldn't they?

Why? The king put himself on the front lines and in a position to be killed. Not to mention that they likely have no idea where he is. The field is being overrun, so why send good soldiers to die? Have you read the Stolen Throne, and if not, do you know the story of the Battle of West Hills?

Okay, my bad... but you're taking advantage of it. I might as well have said 'name a single development involving air' and you could have answered 'all of it, since the Warden is breathing the whole time'. Obviously air is present, but the story is not actually about air, but rather about your little brother murdering your older brother and stitching you up for it.

Except that the story is about the darkspawn. Take away the darkspawn and what do you have? And if you don't want someone to take advantage of poor wording, then have a better question.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
Sure. A lot of people have a lot of opinions. There are several people in this thread who do not identify Loghain as the primary antagonist.

However, it does seem to be the consensus mainstream opinion. Not even an opinion actually, as it's taken for granted.

I did ask you to point me in the direction of a better source of information, and you haven't. Outside of Loghain fans posting in forums like yourself, has any professional or semi-professional source said that he is not an antagonist?

[legbamel]

But if the Warden were, say, a plubmer and goes about buying pipes to fix a leak would you call the leak an antagonist if all it does is continue spraying water all over the place like it always had? Telling me fighting the Blight is the Warden's job doesn't tell me anything about the forces in the narrative, just the setting.

If it weren't the Blight giving the plot impetus they could simply have had an adventurer travelling about solving the problems of all of the main races in Ferelden. Loghain would, then, have been the antagonist.

That's not to say that I don't believe the Archdemon acts as an antgonist. It does, particularly toward the end. I'm just saying that your argument is weak. I've never played Darkspawn Chronicles so if, in that DLC, you're privy to a much more active role that DA:O shows I wouldn't know. That hasn't been the reason given until just this page, however, and it isn't the one you gave..

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
Except that the story is about the darkspawn. Take away the darkspawn and what do you have?

Well, take away the Wars of the Roses from 'Black Arrow' and what do you have? But you wouldn't say that the story was about the wars, or that the real antagonist wasn't Sir Daniel, but the House of Lancaster, would you ?

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Sure. A lot of people have a lot of opinions. There are several people in this thread who do not identify Loghain as the primary antagonist.

However, it does seem to be the consensus mainstream opinion. Not even an opinion actually, as it's taken for granted.

I did ask you to point me in the direction of a better source of information, and you haven't. Outside of Loghain fans posting in forums like yourself, has any professional or semi-professional source said that he is not an antagonist?

You are not quoting professional sources. You are quoting people on blogs and wikis. A GI article is not a professional source. He's a professional gamer, not a writer. It's not a work of literature. We're not talking about what the color of the curtains mean. These people's opinions are just as valid as mine and anyone else who holds my opinion. And that's exactly what it is. It's my opinion.

Fourty eight percent of Americans who voted in the presidential election had the opinion that Mitt Romney would be a better president than the current president. Does that make those 48 percent wrong because they lost? No, it means they had a different opinion. Do we have to start talking about the difference between opinion and fact?

Modifié par Monica21, 07 janvier 2013 - 08:22 .

[legbamel]

Why on earth do you find the idea that Loghain is one of the antagonists so offensive? Why do you dismiss all evidence presented to support that idea without presenting any to support your own? I just don't get the source of your firmly-closed mind on this.

As for the forty-some percent that voted for Romney, I'm not touching that one on a game forum.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
Fourty eight percent of Americans who voted in the presidential election had the opinion that Mitt Romney would be a better president than the current president. Does that make those 48 percent wrong because they lost? No, it means they had a different opinion. Do we have to start talking about the difference between opinion and fact?

No, we're trying to establish whether there is a generally agreed-upon consensus on the matter or not. For example, most people agree that Iago is the villain in Othello. That doesn't mean that you can't say that, in your opinion, Iago is the hero, but it will always be an outlier opinion because the vast majority of people since Elizabethan times have easily identified him as the villain.

I did agree with you that Wikipaedia isn't necessarily the most trustworthy source of info, but you still haven't pointed me to a better one.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 07 janvier 2013 - 08:39 .

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

Well, um... shouldn't they?

Depends. This is a Romanticist vs. Realist argument here. Some would say that, as Cailan is the king, Loghain has an obligation to save him -- and it doesn't matter how many men die as a result, or even if Loghain could've succeeded (Romanticist).

The Realist argument is that Cailan was too trenched in the Darkspawn battle, that he put himself on the front lines despite repeated protests, and that every soldier is worth more then the king -- more so given that Maric once made Loghain promise to never save a king over Ferelden if it came down to it.

Now, I personally think that maybe Loghain should've sent a small contingent of men and women from Maric's Shield -- Cauthrien's unit that she commands -- to attempt to save him while he retreated with the bulk of his army. If they failed, Loghain could at least claim he tried to save Cailan while upholding his promise to Maric.

That'd be the politically sound thing to do.

But Loghain is not a smart politician.

[LobselVith8]

Speaking of Loghain Mac Tir (former Teyrn of Gwaren and the Hero of River Dane), I would love to see what Warden Loghain has to say about the civil war in Orlais (since he's stationed in Montsimmard) in Inquisition. It's possible one of the factions among the Orlesian nobility might seek to reclaim control of Ferelden (given what's said in "King Alistair"), and I'm sure Loghain would have plenty to say about that.

If it is possible to have a Warden as a companion for the Inquisitior, I think Loghain would make for an interesting companion (for players who spared Loghain at the Landsmeet).

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
But to me at least, there is nothing in-game suggesting that Duncan is inept.

Duncan's master plan is to have all of the GWs, save Alistair and the Warden (and, as far as we know, only because Cailain said so) fight on foot in the Vanguard. This is the entire Order in Ferelden, when he knows that there is a Blight and knows that the only way to end it is to have a GW kill the archdemon. His actual plan is to agree to have the GWs in a position where they can't reach the archdemon, they're all in mortal peril if the enemy overwhelms them, and then proceeds to do absolutely nothing to convince anyone that the GWs are worth a damn as anything more than shock troops.

I remember reading somewhere that each Grey Warden is capable of slaying 20 Darkspawn each in battle, at the same time, because of being Wardens.

Factor in how there are only 2 dozen at most in Ferelden, and that means at any one time they can slay 480 Darkspawn on their own.

Now, this is all assuming what I read -- codex or guide info or something -- wasn't just hyperbole.

That said however, I agree Duncan did not speak up enough, which is part of why Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens. But a part of Duncan also felt it was too late for the Wardens at Ostagar to do anything, because he had seen the strength of the horde.

Which makes his not speaking up all the more damning, because Wardens are supposed to do "whatever it takes to defeat the Blight". You'd think that includes lying about the Archdemon's presence even if you haven't actually seen it, telling the heads of state just why your Order is necessary, and other things.

I like Duncan as a mentor and as a character, but as a field commander he's not particularly stellar. At least in Ostagar. During the HN and DN origins, he's a good field commander. In the former he knows what to do and what not to do to escape Howe's men, and during the DN he's commanding a small squad of men in order to find evidence of the Archdemon.