597 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Speaking of Loghain Mac Tir (former Teyrn of Gwaren and the Hero of River Dane), I would love to see what Warden Loghain has to say about the civil war in Orlais (since he's stationed in Montsimmard) in Inquisition. It's possible one of the factions among the Orlesian nobility might seek to reclaim control of Ferelden (given what's said in "King Alistair"), and I'm sure Loghain would have plenty to say about that.

If it is possible to have a Warden as a companion for the Inquisitior, I think Loghain would make for an interesting companion (for players who spared Loghain at the Landsmeet).

Loghain will hear about Orlais' coming invasion and he will flip over tables in anger, punch Chevaliers in the face in anger* (and in satisfaction), grab an ebony stallion and ride off to Ferelden's defense as the midnight rain pours down his face.

As for a Warden companion, it's more likely Stroud will be the companion.

*Or he'll flip Orlesian Chevaliers and punch tables.

In Exile wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
But to me at least, there is nothing in-game suggesting that Duncan is inept.

Duncan's master plan is to have all of the GWs, save Alistair and the Warden (and, as far as we know, only because Cailain said so) fight on foot in the Vanguard. This is the entire Order in Ferelden, when he knows that there is a Blight and knows that the only way to end it is to have a GW kill the archdemon. His actual plan is to agree to have the GWs in a position where they can't reach the archdemon, they're all in mortal peril if the enemy overwhelms them, and then proceeds to do absolutely nothing to convince anyone that the GWs are worth a damn as anything more than shock troops.

I remember reading somewhere that each Grey Warden is capable of slaying 20 Darkspawn each in battle, at the same time, because of being Wardens.

Factor in how there are only 2 dozen at most in Ferelden, and that means at any one time they can slay 480 Darkspawn on their own in the heat of battle. Not maximum before they die, but they could just kill 480 Darkspawn by virtue of their presence repeatedly, until they become overwhelmed.

Now, this is all assuming what I read -- codex or guide info or something -- wasn't just hyperbole.

That said however, I agree Duncan did not speak up enough, which is part of why Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens. But a part of Duncan also felt it was too late for the Wardens at Ostagar to do anything, because he had seen the strength of the horde.

Which makes his not speaking up all the more damning, because Wardens are supposed to do "whatever it takes to defeat the Blight". You'd think that includes lying about the Archdemon's presence even if you haven't actually seen it, telling the heads of state just why your Order is necessary, and other things.

I like Duncan as a mentor and as a character, but as a field commander he's not particularly stellar. At least in Ostagar. During the HN and DN origins, he's a good field commander. In the former he knows what to do and what not to do to escape Howe's men, and during the DN he's commanding a small squad of men in order to find evidence of the Archdemon.

Never mind how in the Magi Origin, he talks about how he wants to put one or two Mages in every contingent of men because of what Mages can do -- call down fire and ice or heal their allies.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 janvier 2013 - 02:52 .

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Fourty eight percent of Americans who voted in the presidential election had the opinion that Mitt Romney would be a better president than the current president. Does that make those 48 percent wrong because they lost? No, it means they had a different opinion. Do we have to start talking about the difference between opinion and fact?

No, we're trying to establish whether there is a generally agreed-upon consensus on the matter or not. For example, most people agree that Iago is the villain in Othello. That doesn't mean that you can't say that, in your opinion, Iago is the hero, but it will always be an outlier opinion because the vast majority of people since Elizabethan times have easily identified him as the villain.

I did agree with you that Wikipaedia isn't necessarily the most trustworthy source of info, but you still haven't pointed me to a better one.

No, you're trying to establish it. I stopped caring several pages ago.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Fourty eight percent of Americans who voted in the presidential election had the opinion that Mitt Romney would be a better president than the current president. Does that make those 48 percent wrong because they lost? No, it means they had a different opinion. Do we have to start talking about the difference between opinion and fact?

No, we're trying to establish whether there is a generally agreed-upon consensus on the matter or not. For example, most people agree that Iago is the villain in Othello. That doesn't mean that you can't say that, in your opinion, Iago is the hero, but it will always be an outlier opinion because the vast majority of people since Elizabethan times have easily identified him as the villain.

I did agree with you that Wikipaedia isn't necessarily the most trustworthy source of info, but you still haven't pointed me to a better one.

No, you're trying to establish it. I stopped caring several pages ago.

Well if you're going to be like that, fine. It doesn't reflect very well on you and your side though. I've offered nothing but politeness and reasonableness, and you've responded with haughtiness and hostility. If this is typical of Loghain's fans, one might think, no wonder they see him as a role model.

[ChandlerL]

It occurs to me that I don't have a Loghain lives playthrough. Time to do just that! I still love Simon Templemen's delivery of Loghain's speech at the Landsmeet. Great stuff.

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...

Well if you're going to be like that, fine. It doesn't reflect very well on you and your side though. I've offered nothing but politeness and reasonableness, and you've responded with haughtiness and hostility. If this is typical of Loghain's fans, one might think, no wonder they see him as a role model.

My "side" is based just as much in opinion as yours. I'm disappointed that you can't see that, but I'll refrain from commenting on how that reflects on those who dislike Loghain because there's no relevance.

[AlexanderCousland]

Dorrieb wrote...

Well if you're going to be like that, fine. It doesn't reflect very well on you and your side though. I've offered nothing but politeness and reasonableness, and you've responded with haughtiness and hostility. If this is typical of Loghain's fans, one might think, no wonder they see him as a role model.

Harsh assessment.

Im a Lohgain fan, and it has more to do with his pratical senisibility, strong military mind, and his proven track record as a Leader of men. His only mistake was trusting Arl Howe and picking the Warden for an adversarie. 

[dlinedj]

I used to despise Loghain until I read The Stolen Throne; now he is one of my favorite characters in the Dragon Age universe. Though many have hated him, I feel nothing but sympathy for him. He was a great man whose paranoia and hatred of the Orlesians was used against him by Arl Howe, corrupting him and creating the villainous man that he was in DA:O.

[Addai]

Dorrieb wrote...
Well if you're going to be like that, fine. It doesn't reflect very well on you and your side though. I've offered nothing but politeness and reasonableness, and you've responded with haughtiness and hostility. If this is typical of Loghain's fans, one might think, no wonder they see him as a role model.

It was a pointless argument to begin with.  Of course the darkspawn are antagonists, and not all mindless, and of course Loghain is also an antagonist.  Morrigan- who has a lot of good things to say- puts it well when she suggests you go after your adversary Loghain first and then address the Blight in safety.  Both put up obstacles, both are working against you the entire game (besides the camp attack, there are many darkspawn random events against you and your allies), and both need to be dealt with in order to beat the game and resolve the conflicts.

[Cobra's_back]

Loghain is an interesting character. He loved his king but kept betraying him. In The Stolen Throne book each betrayal worse than the first. Love to see someone like him.

[AlexanderCousland]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Loghain is an interesting character. He loved his king but kept betraying him. In The Stolen Throne book each betrayal worse than the first. Love to see someone like him.

If you believe Flemeth mumbo jumbo. I really dont see anything Lohgain did as a betrayal directly aimed at hurting Maric.

[dragonflight288]

He did leave Maric's son to die in a split-second decision, genuinely believing the battle was lost and condemned the Grey Wardens and the King's men to death as well, sparking a civil war and if you listen to the rumors from inn keepers and Bodhan, does increasingly brutal things to maintain power over the banns and arls just so he can have an army to fight the blight.

[Savber100]

"He’s a clever villain. People like reading about clever, interesting opponents to our heroes. People who are able to outthink, outmaneuver as well as outfight. Ultimately the heroism of the hero is measured by the villainy or power of the villain and with Thrawn I wanted something different than Force using Vader or Palpatine. Somebody who doesn’t have Luke’s Force Powers, but can run him around in a maze whenever he really wants to."
―Timothy Zahn on Admiral Thrawn

THIS is how I want Bioware to approach DA3's villain. A magnificent bastard that is competent and brilliant while also understandable in his or her motives can make an excellent villain.

Do you guys agree?

[LPPrince]

Savber100 wrote...

"He’s a clever villain. People like reading about clever, interesting opponents to our heroes. People who are able to outthink, outmaneuver as well as outfight. Ultimately the heroism of the hero is measured by the villainy or power of the villain and with Thrawn I wanted something different than Force using Vader or Palpatine. Somebody who doesn’t have Luke’s Force Powers, but can run him around in a maze whenever he really wants to."
―Timothy Zahn on Admiral Thrawn

THIS is how I want Bioware to approach DA3's villain. A magnificent bastard that is competent and brilliant while also understandable in his or her motives can make an excellent villain.

Do you guys agree?

Until I read Thrawn I legitimately thought you were talking about Loghain.

[dragonflight288]

Savber100 wrote...

"He’s a clever villain. People like reading about clever, interesting opponents to our heroes. People who are able to outthink, outmaneuver as well as outfight. Ultimately the heroism of the hero is measured by the villainy or power of the villain and with Thrawn I wanted something different than Force using Vader or Palpatine. Somebody who doesn’t have Luke’s Force Powers, but can run him around in a maze whenever he really wants to."
―Timothy Zahn on Admiral Thrawn

THIS is how I want Bioware to approach DA3's villain. A magnificent bastard that is competent and brilliant while also understandable in his or her motives can make an excellent villain.

Do you guys agree?

That IS ideal.

Another good example of a good villain or rival is Kai Leng to Shepard. Kai Leng completely outmaneuvers Shepard on the Assari homeworld and kills Thane, has a great deal of build-up and pretty much matched Shepard in almost every way in capability.

[TEWR]

Psh, Vayne Solidor of FFXII and Sephiran of FE:PoR/FE:RD are the absolute pinnacle of antagonists, IMO.
 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 janvier 2013 - 05:23 .

[In Exile]

Savber100 wrote...

"He’s a clever villain. People like reading about clever, interesting opponents to our heroes. People who are able to outthink, outmaneuver as well as outfight. Ultimately the heroism of the hero is measured by the villainy or power of the villain and with Thrawn I wanted something different than Force using Vader or Palpatine. Somebody who doesn’t have Luke’s Force Powers, but can run him around in a maze whenever he really wants to."
―Timothy Zahn on Admiral Thrawn

THIS is how I want Bioware to approach DA3's villain. A magnificent bastard that is competent and brilliant while also understandable in his or her motives can make an excellent villain.

Do you guys agree?

Yeah. But it's important to have the character not be, you know, an idiot. Or do it by being a mindreader.

What Loghain does, even if you take what he believes for granted, is stupid. Loghain doesn't come off as clever - he either comes of as paranoid, or incompetent.

[Dorrieb]

Monica21 wrote...
My "side" is based just as much in opinion as yours. I'm disappointed that you can't see that, but I'll refrain from commenting on how that reflects on those who dislike Loghain because there's no relevance.

I'm talking about how you, Monica, specifically, act toward people who disagree with you. You have been hostile, close-minded, haughty and sarcastic toward me, and all I've done to deserve it is argue with you.

I'm in hospital for the next few days, which isn't meant as a plea for sympathy (although a 'get well soon' or two wouldn't be amiss), but to explain that I'm going to stop arguing for a bit while I'm busy getting stuck full of plastic tubes. It's a shame really, because I think an interesting discussion can still be had, and I hope you guys do.

[Savber100]

dragonflight288 wrote...


That IS ideal.

Another good example of a good villain or rival is Kai Leng to Shepard. Kai Leng completely outmaneuvers Shepard on the Assari homeworld and kills Thane, has a great deal of build-up and pretty much matched Shepard in almost every way in capability.

I liked the idea of Kai Leng but I thought his execution was poor. 

Mainly the fact that Kai Leng was more brawns than brains as with each encounter always ended in a fistfight. The only time you were ever "beaten" by Kai leng, you still defeated in a fair fight but was then intervened by some "magic" cutscenes were suddenly he gets the better of you. 

The whole dialogue between Kai and Shepard at Cronos Station was cringe-worthy:

Shepard: "You ran at the Citadel, you ran at Thessia"

Kai Leng: "Shut up!"

Me:  

[Chewin]

Commander Kurt wrote...
But to me at least, there is nothing in-game suggesting that Duncan is inept. He is presented as a bad-ass, much as Loghain is. The only thing suggesting that Loghain quitting the field is inconsequential to the overall outcome of the battle is people wanting to think so. Everyone in-game questions it and/or sees him as a traitor for it (even Cauthrien, his most avid supporter). And I get that that could just be because he was supposed to die if his king demanded it, but as I say, there is nothing in-game saying that Duncan was wrong and Loghain was right. 

True, though neither is there any indication that he is a competent strategiest. Pretty certain he wouldn't have let the King fight in the fray (if he didn't dare to say it or actually thought the battle was winnable).

It's true that the game does a poor job explaining that the battle was unwinnable. Though you never get to discuss the subject with people  who were with Loghain--other than Cauthrien who most likely disagreed on the subject. 

Duncan wants to wait for the orlesian wardens, meaning that they are not killed at ostagar. It's ferelden wardens. But anyway, he has declared the wardens traitors, it's right there in the game. It is also clearly a lie. Teagan says something to the effect of "Do I believe that Cailan charged headlessly into battle and the wardens betrayed the king? Hardly." Why does Loghain lie about this?

As I recall it, he was waiting for further Wardens coming from Orlais. They never made it to Ostagar. And truth be told whether they were Ferelden or not, to Loghain's eyes anyone who aligned with the Warden's were a traitor since the Wardens had earlier been 'banished' from Ferelden. When Duncan returned to Ferelden to recruite future Wardens, he faced suspicion and hostility by the people.

1. Why is Loghain lying about it to the nobles (saying that the wardens betrayed the king)?

To try and restrain any future conflict and unify the nobles in supporting him, instead of under the 'Warden banner'. I do agree that wasn't the smartest of choices to do, but I'd hardly call it stupid.

2. Why is Loghain saying that he did what he had to to ensure fereldens independance? Didn't he do it because the battle was already lost?

Partially yes. Had he joined the fray, he was afraid that Orlais would have "open doors" to take over Ferelden.

3. Why is noone else in the game agreeing with him that the battle was lost (such as cauthrien, who was there and is clearly shocked when he sounds the retreat)?

IIRC, most people you discuss that with weren't there, none of which where on Loghain's side (other than Cauthrien of course but that I explained above).

It may seem like the questions are changing, but I was not sure if the argument was that Loghain knew the battle was fruitless before hand or if he learned it during the battle. The original post was adressing both scenarios.

Apologize for the inconvinience. Misinerpreted your post then.

Modifié par Chewin3, 08 janvier 2013 - 03:31 .

[Arppis]

Shenrai wrote...

 So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

I was actualy ready to save him, so he can sacrifice himself and redeem for some crap he had done before. So his death would count for something. But Alistair didn't like the idea, so I told him to chop his head off if he wants this  to happen so badly.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Speaking of Loghain Mac Tir (former Teyrn of Gwaren and the Hero of River Dane), I would love to see what Warden Loghain has to say about the civil war in Orlais (since he's stationed in Montsimmard) in Inquisition. It's possible one of the factions among the Orlesian nobility might seek to reclaim control of Ferelden (given what's said in "King Alistair"), and I'm sure Loghain would have plenty to say about that.

If it is possible to have a Warden as a companion for the Inquisitior, I think Loghain would make for an interesting companion (for players who spared Loghain at the Landsmeet).

Loghain will hear about Orlais' coming invasion and he will flip over tables in anger, punch Chevaliers in the face in anger* (and in satisfaction), grab an ebony stallion and ride off to Ferelden's defense as the midnight rain pours down his face.

As for a Warden companion, it's more likely Stroud will be the companion.

*Or he'll flip Orlesian Chevaliers and punch tables.

I really want to see that happen. 

Given the ongoing discussion about Loghain, I thought I would provide two quotes from Gaider from the "In Defense of Loghain" thread. 

His comment about Arl Eamon being poisoned by Jowan (via Loghain):

David Gaider wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.

AndreaDraco wrote...

And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected. 

Gaider's comment about Loghain and the darkspawn forces at Ostagar:

David Gaider wrote...

dan107 wrote...

However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

Gaider does make the comment a few posts later (on the same page, right here) that Loghain hoped Cailan would see reason, even though he wasn't expecting him to.

[Monica21]

Dorrieb wrote...
I'm talking about how you, Monica, specifically, act toward people who disagree with you. You have been hostile, close-minded, haughty and sarcastic toward me, and all I've done to deserve it is argue with you.

I'm in hospital for the next few days, which isn't meant as a plea for sympathy (although a 'get well soon' or two wouldn't be amiss), but to explain that I'm going to stop arguing for a bit while I'm busy getting stuck full of plastic tubes. It's a shame really, because I think an interesting discussion can still be had, and I hope you guys do.

Dorrieb, I have an opinion. It's an opinion about Loghain as a character and about the choices made in the Landsmeet that you don't share. It is not my intention to appear hostile or close-minded. But by the same turn, I could say the same about you. You've continued to bring this up, and direct those comments to me, after I've stated that I was no longer interested. I haven't responded to much of your claims simply because I have no interest in continuing the discussion, something that I've stated more than once now.

There is a difference between opinion and fact and you don't seem to be able to acknowledge that. Googling people who agree with you doesn't make you more right. This is how arguments work. You have to have evidence, and some guy who writes a blog isn't evidence. It's just some guy who shares the same opinion as you. It's not an uninteresting discussion, but when two parties get to the point of "No, I'm right" and "No, I'm right" then it's not much of a discussion. You haven't presented anything new or revealing about the nature of the game and Loghain's role in it for several pages now. You've simply been repeating that you're right because other people agree with you.

And at the risk of sounding insincere, I do hope you get well soon. I've had my share of extended hospital stays and I know how much they suck.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lohgain' s "mistake" was not sacrificing huge numbers of his troop' s (needed to fight the blight) to save a King that already lost his life fighting on the front lines. I dont see how anyone thinks Lohgain intended for Cailin to die when the games clearly shows Lohgain advise Cailin not to go fight at the Head of the battle, to which Cailin responds "You will remember who is King". So this notion that Lohgain should have joined the fight for "Honor' s sake" is impractical because that wouldn't havent prevented the civil unrest that followed, The King is dead with no heir, some Fereldan noble is going to try to takeover, and it might not have been someone who was at ostagar to recognize the true threat of the blight, therefore could have been even more of a detriment to the Country.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

His comment about Arl Eamon being poisoned by Jowan (via Loghain):

The problem with much of what DG says about the Eamon-poisoning thing on when it happened is that it directly contradicts what we see in-game.

We can hear in both the Mage and HN origins how the battles at Ostagar have already gone well, and we find out that Loghain is the reason for all of those victories.

Meaning he's been at Ostagar the entire time, so he couldn't have possibly met up with Jowan in Denerim until after Ostagar, and thus sent Jowan to Redcliffe to poison Eamon.

Eamon was apparently well enough to tell Cailan he could be at Ostagar within the week, too. If he was sick, they wouldn't have him going out into battle.

[Addai]

We don't hear specifically that Loghain was responsible for the victories at Ostagar, just that people are looking him to win the big battle. The explanation I've seen is that Duncan didn't beeline there, either. I picture him stopping off at one or two of the other recruitment locations on his way down, and Loghain also arriving after Cailan has already won a few battles. Depending on where you're coming from, the Warden might even be with Duncan at the time he meets Eamon. Say if you were coming from Orzammar or the Circle. BTW Eamon says "within a week," not meaning "this week we're in now."

Modifié par Addai67, 09 janvier 2013 - 01:31 .