597 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

We don't hear specifically that Loghain was responsible for the victories at Ostagar, just that people are looking him to win the big battle.

No, we do hear it actually.

[Sidney]

You figure that Loghain and the Arishok both fill the noble but fanatical niche - and are in the end more compelling than the "main" threat in each game. I think they're trying to work that angle. Heck, really even Meredith and Orsino aren't totally Snidley Whiplash Evil they've got motives and goals until circumstances overcome them (not trying to be spoilery). The only really pointless evil that is just EVIL is the Archdemon.

[LobselVith8]

Sidney wrote...

You figure that Loghain and the Arishok both fill the noble but fanatical niche - and are in the end more compelling than the "main" threat in each game. I think they're trying to work that angle. Heck, really even Meredith and Orsino aren't totally Snidley Whiplash Evil they've got motives and goals until circumstances overcome them (not trying to be spoilery). The only really pointless evil that is just EVIL is the Archdemon.

I think Loghain is very compelling. Even if you kill him, you can see he deeply loves his daughter and his country, and he accepts his fate with dignity. I'm glad I spared him with my canon Surana Warden. Warden Loghain would be a good addition to Inquisition. 

While there are many views about his actions in Origins, I think the dropped plot with Empress Celene being in Denerim (and Loghain finding out about the impending marriage with Cailan) would have to this storyline.

[AlexanderCousland]

Archdemon' s, if you consider the story of how they came about, arent really pointless Evil. (Or if you consider the Architect wants to taint the world and make free thinking darkspawn) The point, I think, of the darkspawn is for them to taint the world like the mages tainted the Golden City, punishment.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

We don't hear specifically that Loghain was responsible for the victories at Ostagar, just that people are looking him to win the big battle.

No, we do hear it actually.

Who says that?

[AlexanderCousland]

Gaider

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

We don't hear specifically that Loghain was responsible for the victories at Ostagar, just that people are looking him to win the big battle.

No, we do hear it actually.

Who says that?

I think a few soldiers remark that Loghain's the reason the battles have gone so well. But I'll need to replay Ostagar and one of the two origins where Duncan talks about Ostagar to be certain if that's where it's said. But I'm like 85% sure we do hear it.

I certainly can't see how Cailan -- the man that finds strategy boring and waved Loghain away anytime Loghain wanted to talk strategy with his king* -- would've succeeded in battle otherwise though.

*Something Cailan's tent guard will say.

Ah regardless DG did say it, sort of. He says that "The Darkspawn were getting stronger with each engagement, and Loghain knew that" so I'd say that implicitly states that Loghain was there very strongly. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 janvier 2013 - 08:20 .

[Commander Kurt]

Chewin3, the etherial writer redux; the quotes are getting so many I fear that any reply quoting you guys wouldn't fit on one page.

I have been doing some homework (checking your earlier posts) and I do understand him better. The part about him thinking that the wardens must have betrayed the king when the signal came so late could explain much. However,
I don't completely buy it. It's still a decision based entirely by paranoia bordering on insanity. The signal could be late for any number of reasons, and if Loghain actually knew the intended time for it to be lit, they wouldn't have needed a beacon at all.

So, maybe not stupid per se, but entirely ruled by madness and paranoia. I do prefer to view it as a plan for assuming power with Howe. Everything in-game just makes more sense that way, but I have found a lot more respect for your stance on the matter. Thanks for taking the time to explain it!

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

FreshIstay wrote...

Archdemon' s, if you consider the story of how they came about, arent really pointless Evil. (Or if you consider the Architect wants to taint the world and make free thinking darkspawn) The point, I think, of the darkspawn is for them to taint the world like the mages tainted the Golden City, punishment.

I actually find pointless evil easier to swallow than the convoluted Golden CIty thing, lest we fall into the same trap as whether reapers are naughty or not. I mean if it's the manifestation of god's will to punish them, shouldn't the religious folk of thedas accept their fate?

So, Loghain with his less otherworldly motivations tends to be more compelling.

But in the end, who's more of a main baddie is quite subjective, RIGHT?

[Commander Kurt]

Oh, and to IN EXILE; Wardens are the stuff of legends. Naturally, they would all have survived had it not been for betrayal.

As if a mere horde could stop them.

Modifié par Commander Kurt, 09 janvier 2013 - 11:27 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah regardless DG did say it, sort of. He says that "The Darkspawn were getting stronger with each engagement, and Loghain knew that" so I'd say that implicitly states that Loghain was there very strongly. 

The first thing Loghain would do on arriving would be to get reports, so I wouldn't say that speaks to his physical presence.  Cailan was a glory hound but he was still trained by Loghain and I don't see any incongruity in him winning a few smaller engagements.

edit- Glancing through the old Loghain thread, it seems DG was of two minds about this.  He says that Loghain had been at Ostagar for some time and seen what Cailan was capable of, but when specifically asked about timeline basically says what I was saying (I knew I wasn't making it up):

David Gaider wrote...

Asylumer wrote...
If you don't mind answering another question.

You seem to imply that Loghain did poison Eamon beforehand, but also that he was with Cailan at Ostagar. I'm just wondering how that's possible given it's Jowan who does the poisoning, he was supposedly brought to Denerim for his execution, and said that Loghain himself appeared to offer him the deal. Was that a plot-hole created when the story changed regarding Jowan, or was Jowan always the one meant to poison Eamon? It
seems rather impossible for Loghain to have met Jowan in Denerim while being at Ostagar for the battles.

Err... I'm not sure I understand? There is a "passage of time" involved between the end of the origin story and the beginning of the plot at Ostagar. Loghain and the King's army was not in Ostagar that entire time.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[In Exile]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Oh, and to IN EXILE; Wardens are the stuff of legends. Naturally, they would all have survived had it not been for betrayal.

As if a mere horde could stop them.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the betrayal didn't kill them: it left them without reinforcements. And they all seemed to do a good job of dying painfully.

[Commander Kurt]

In Exile wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

Oh, and to IN EXILE; Wardens are the stuff of legends. Naturally, they would all have survived had it not been for betrayal.

As if a mere horde could stop them.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the betrayal didn't kill them: it left them without reinforcements. And they all seemed to do a good job of dying painfully.

I am. Being sarcastic that is. But thing is, that which really killed them was the writers. And the writers played the scene such that you see (through Duncan's eyes) everyone dying. You see the flairing beacon. You see rage and confusion, and you see the killing blow coming. Betrayal killed them in the game, that's the story.

Of course you're right, it was an insane move to have the wardens on the front line. But that seem to be the way to go strategically speaking, we do the same thing when there are only two of us, one possibly being the new king, after all. 

[AlexanderCousland]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Archdemon' s, if you consider the story of how they came about, arent really pointless Evil. (Or if you consider the Architect wants to taint the world and make free thinking darkspawn) The point, I think, of the darkspawn is for them to taint the world like the mages tainted the Golden City, punishment.

I actually find pointless evil easier to swallow than the convoluted Golden CIty thing, lest we fall into the same trap as whether reapers are naughty or not. I mean if it's the manifestation of god's will to punish them, shouldn't the religious folk of thedas accept their fate?

So, Loghain with his less otherworldly motivations tends to be more compelling.

But in the end, who's more of a main baddie is quite subjective, RIGHT?

I dont it' s the Maker' s will to punish the people, I think it was the Maker' s  will to corrupt Thedas like the Magister' s corrupted the Golden City.  An Coryepheus is an example that the story has some validity to it, wether or not the chantry version of the story is 100% accurate is irrelevant.

All in all, Lohgain was a more compelling adversary within the setting of DAO, but I find the Darkspawn (especially free thinking ones) more compelling as enemy's in the Lore of Thedas (Grey Wardens etc etc.) 

[AlexanderCousland]

Commander Kurt wrote...


I am. Being sarcastic that is. But thing is, that which really killed them was the writers. And the writers played the scene such that you see (through Duncan's eyes) everyone dying. You see the flairing beacon. You see rage and confusion, and you see the killing blow coming. Betrayal killed them in the game, that's the story.

Of course you're right, it was an insane move to have the wardens on the front line. But that seem to be the way to go strategically speaking, we do the same thing when there are only two of us, one possibly being the new king, after all. 

I dont think the writer' s killed anything, i think it's brilliance on their part that this topic is being discussed. I can sympathise with those who feel Lohgain' s move was a Betrayal, but here' s the juice for me, It was merely a betrayal of emotions. Tactically speaking, Lohgain made the right move. It' s important to remember the battle at Ostagar was lost wether or not Lohgain joined the fray. 

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

FreshIstay wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Archdemon' s, if you consider the story of how they came about, arent really pointless Evil. (Or if you consider the Architect wants to taint the world and make free thinking darkspawn) The point, I think, of the darkspawn is for them to taint the world like the mages tainted the Golden City, punishment.

I actually find pointless evil easier to swallow than the convoluted Golden CIty thing, lest we fall into the same trap as whether reapers are naughty or not. I mean if it's the manifestation of god's will to punish them, shouldn't the religious folk of thedas accept their fate?

So, Loghain with his less otherworldly motivations tends to be more compelling.

But in the end, who's more of a main baddie is quite subjective, RIGHT?

I dont it' s the Maker' s will to punish the people, I think it was the Maker' s  will to corrupt Thedas like the Magister' s corrupted the Golden City.  An Coryepheus is an example that the story has some validity to it, wether or not the chantry version of the story is 100% accurate is irrelevant.

All in all, Lohgain was a more compelling adversary within the setting of DAO, but I find the Darkspawn (especially free thinking ones) more compelling as enemy's in the Lore of Thedas (Grey Wardens etc etc.) 

Going off topic here, but I think the topic has been done to death anyway.

Is that such a big difference anyway? So the Maker *wants* thedas to be corrupted, why are people finding this corruption? Aren't they basically fighting the maker? Why do people say prayers and war cries to the maker while engaging Darkspawn? I think Maker would have his money on his lovelies.


Oh other thing you said though, are there any other canon alternative theories to the origin of the darkspawn? I never played awakening and it seems to tangle it that maybe.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 10 janvier 2013 - 01:02 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

edit- Glancing through the old Loghain thread, it seems DG was of two minds about this.  He says that Loghain had been at Ostagar for some time and seen what Cailan was capable of, but when specifically asked about timeline basically says what I was saying (I knew I wasn't making it up):

David Gaider wrote...

Asylumer wrote...
If you don't mind answering another question.

You seem to imply that Loghain did poison Eamon beforehand, but also that he was with Cailan at Ostagar. I'm just wondering how that's possible given it's Jowan who does the poisoning, he was supposedly brought to Denerim for his execution, and said that Loghain himself appeared to offer him the deal. Was that a plot-hole created when the story changed regarding Jowan, or was Jowan always the one meant to poison Eamon? It
seems rather impossible for Loghain to have met Jowan in Denerim while being at Ostagar for the battles.

Err... I'm not sure I understand? There is a "passage of time" involved between the end of the origin story and the beginning of the plot at Ostagar. Loghain and the King's army was not in Ostagar that entire time.

This is precisely why I do not take what he says about when Eamon was poisoned in that thread as being the truth of the matter. Duncan will state in two origins that the King's Army is at Ostagar.

But DG wants to say that Loghain and the King's army weren't at Ostagar from the beginning of the game to when we get there.

It doesn't jive together. You can't have Duncan say he's met the king, went with him to Ostagar, the king's army has fought a few major battles already and won easily, and say the king and his forces are waiting at Ostagar and then go on to say in a thread "No, they weren't there the entire time."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[AlexanderCousland]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Going off topic here, but I think the topic has been done to death anyway.

Is that such a big difference anyway? So the Maker *wants* thedas to be corrupted, why are people finding this corruption? Aren't they basically fighting the maker? Why do people say prayers and war cries to the maker while engaging Darkspawn? I think Maker would have his money on his lovelies.


Oh other thing you said though, are there any other canon alternative theories to the origin of the darkspawn? I never played awakening and it seems to tangle it that maybe.

Im saying that the Maker corrupted Thedas as a consequence of the Magisters corrupting the Golden city, mission accomplished, Im not saying he wants the Darkspawn to kill everything, the Maker would have completely ruled out his return had he wanted Thedas destroyed, the whole 4 corners of the earth theory says otherwise, I suppose thats why the people fight.

The only canonical semblance of proof that at least some part of the Chantry's theory on the Darkspawn is true would be Corryepheus (spell check) in DA II DLC he talk' s about the Golden City, apparently he' s one of the original magisters.

[AlexanderCousland]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

edit- Glancing through the old Loghain thread, it seems DG was of two minds about this.  He says that Loghain had been at Ostagar for some time and seen what Cailan was capable of, but when specifically asked about timeline basically says what I was saying (I knew I wasn't making it up):

David Gaider wrote...

Asylumer wrote...
If you don't mind answering another question.

You seem to imply that Loghain did poison Eamon beforehand, but also that he was with Cailan at Ostagar. I'm just wondering how that's possible given it's Jowan who does the poisoning, he was supposedly brought to Denerim for his execution, and said that Loghain himself appeared to offer him the deal. Was that a plot-hole created when the story changed regarding Jowan, or was Jowan always the one meant to poison Eamon? It
seems rather impossible for Loghain to have met Jowan in Denerim while being at Ostagar for the battles.

Err... I'm not sure I understand? There is a "passage of time" involved between the end of the origin story and the beginning of the plot at Ostagar. Loghain and the King's army was not in Ostagar that entire time.

This is precisely why I do not take what he says about when Eamon was poisoned in that thread as being the truth of the matter. Duncan will state in two origins that the King's Army is at Ostagar.

But DG wants to say that Loghain and the King's army weren't at Ostagar from the beginning of the game to when we get there.

It doesn't jive together. You can't have Duncan say he's met the king, went with him to Ostagar, and say the king and his forces are waiting at Ostagar and then go on to say in a thread "No, they weren't there the entire time."

I suppose Gaider' s trying to say Lohgain met Jowan sometime between your origin story and Ostagar, it does (theoretically) take some days to travel from any origin location to Ostagar.

[TEWR]

I suppose Gaider' s trying to say Lohgain met Jowan sometime between your origin story and Ostagar, it does (theoretically) take some days to travel from any origin location to Ostagar.

Which, again, makes no sense.

In the Mage Origin, you leave immediately after Jowan's escaped, where you know where the king and his army are.

Ignoring that there really isn't a reason for Loghain to travel to Denerim from Ostagar and then back -- especially when he could send messages other ways, if need be -- how is that Jowan would be caught so soon afterwards and taken to Denerim to meet Loghain when Duncan makes it clear that they leave for Ostagar immediately? And yes it would take a couple of days to get there, that much is true.

Factor in how Jowan has to cross a lake and that there's no way in hell Loghain could be in Denerim to meet him before Ostagar -- much less arrive at Ostagar before you -- and there's a lot that just doesn't add up logistically.

Jowan wouldn't have gotten far, and it would've been wiser to take him back to the Circle if he was caught so soon afterwards then to take him to Denerim where they'd just end up... taking him back to the Circle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:03 .

[DreGregoire]

Another Loghain? Nooooo! It was extremely upsetting not to be able to immediately hunt him down and end his existence. Gish!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:04 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is precisely why I do not take what he says about when Eamon was poisoned in that thread as being the truth of the matter. Duncan will state in two origins that the King's Army is at Ostagar.

But DG wants to say that Loghain and the King's army weren't at Ostagar from the beginning of the game to when we get there.

It doesn't jive together. You can't have Duncan say he's met the king, went with him to Ostagar, the king's army has fought a few major battles already and won easily, and say the king and his forces are waiting at Ostagar and then go on to say in a thread "No, they weren't there the entire time."

I don't really see what your issue is.  Are you assuming that Loghain always travels with the King's Army so that wherever it goes, he has to be there?  Duncan doesn't have to have traveled with Cailan to Ostagar to know (or assume) that Cailan is there.  He can have heard a report that Cailan is at Ostagar, or was going there.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

FreshIstay wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Going off topic here, but I think the topic has been done to death anyway.

Is that such a big difference anyway? So the Maker *wants* thedas to be corrupted, why are people finding this corruption? Aren't they basically fighting the maker? Why do people say prayers and war cries to the maker while engaging Darkspawn? I think Maker would have his money on his lovelies.


Oh other thing you said though, are there any other canon alternative theories to the origin of the darkspawn? I never played awakening and it seems to tangle it that maybe.

Im saying that the Maker corrupted Thedas as a consequence of the Magisters corrupting the Golden city, mission accomplished, Im not saying he wants the Darkspawn to kill everything, the Maker would have completely ruled out his return had he wanted Thedas destroyed, the whole 4 corners of the earth theory says otherwise, I suppose thats why the people fight.

The only canonical semblance of proof that at least some part of the Chantry's theory on the Darkspawn is true would be Corryepheus (spell check) in DA II DLC he talk' s about the Golden City, apparently he' s one of the original magisters.

But surely the corruption is a means and not and end? I mean what does it accomplish? If "mission accomplished" surely he'd take it back? Is he trying to prevent sythnetics from destroying their creators? Who knows.

That's like saying that, when god flooded earth, if all the sinners jacked Noah's boat and survived, he wouldn't try and kill them again.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which, again, makes no sense.

In the Mage Origin, you leave immediately after Jowan's escaped, where you know where the king and his army are.

Ignoring that there really isn't a reason for Loghain to travel to Denerim from Ostagar and then back -- especially when he could send messages other ways, if need be -- how is that Jowan would be caught so soon afterwards and taken to Denerim to meet Loghain when Duncan makes it clear that they leave for Ostagar immediately? And yes it would take a couple of days to get there, that much is true.

Factor in how Jowan has to cross a lake and that there's no way in hell Loghain could be in Denerim to meet him before Ostagar -- much less arrive at Ostagar before you -- and there's a lot that just doesn't add up logistically.

Jowan wouldn't have gotten far, and it would've been wiser to take him back to the Circle if he was caught so soon afterwards then to take him to Denerim where they'd just end up... taking him back to the Circle.

Couple things based on my own assumption of the events...

- Loghain does not set out to Ostagar with Cailan.  He's in Denerim, probably waiting for other troops to arrive.

- Jowan was cornered near Redcliffe, so he had probably crossed the lake.  According to Teagan it's a day's journey across the lake to the Circle.  Some agents of Loghain (I take it he had people watching Eamon) take him out of the templars' hands and bring him to Denerim to be interrogated by Loghain personally.  While this is going on, the Warden and Duncan could have been in Redcliffe for all we know, getting the report of Eamon's words that Duncan later brings to Cailan.

- Jowan is returned to Redcliffe to infiltrate Eamon's household.  Loghain travels to Ostagar. The Warden and Duncan continue their journey, possibly stopping at other recruitment points, and arrive at Ostagar sometime after Loghain does.

I don't see any issue here.  Duncan says he wants to leave immediately, that doesn't mean he doesn't have other stops along the way to Ostagar.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:26 .