597 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexanderCousland]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

But surely the corruption is a means and not and end? I mean what does it accomplish? If "mission accomplished" surely he'd take it back? Is he trying to prevent sythnetics from destroying their creators? Who knows.

That's like saying that, when god flooded earth, if all the sinners jacked Noah's boat and survived, he wouldn't try and kill them again.

I assume thinking was "The world shall suffer for your blasphemy", not "Im going to kill you all because of the Magister' s",  And the world IS SUFFERING from the same corruption that entered the Golden City thus = mission accomplished.

If the Maker is real then if the chant of light is sung from the 4 corners of the world he will return, if he wanted Thedas destroyed that wouldn't be a possibility.

(isnt Noah himself a sinner, did the flood rid the world of all sin?, if the bible is real arent we all Noah' s ancestor' s? we sin, has God killed us all?)

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I took it that you travel around with Duncan to look for recruits from all of the other Origins that Duncan visits. Just that you don't find any or they all end up among the unnamed dead Wardens at Ostagar.

Not so. In the Dwarf Commoner Origin, Duncan says they're leaving immediately. He even tells the Proving Master, the Guardsmen, and the other Dwarves there what essentially boils down to "Thanks everyone, this has been fun, gotta go."

When in the Dwarf Noble Origin, he doesn't leave until after the events of the DC origin, so he should've seen the DC in action. Such that Rica will say that after the Proving incident, Duncan immediately wanted to recruit him -- but couldn't find him.

Sure, it's implied that the friend Leske's referring to is the DC and he stopped eating, but then that raises a few questions in and of itself:

1) Who killed Beraht? Jarvia? Not likely, as she liked Beraht and gives no indication that she's going to betray him.

And you never hear of the City Elf Warden ever. Soris talks as if he was the only one who did all the stuff from the Origin. Then remember how it was Duncan's weapons that allowed the City Elves to even rescue the Elves Vaughan took, so how did the Elves get rescued? The riots happened because of what Vaughan did and they happen no matter what origin was done and regardless of if the PC was a CE.

Then what about the Mage Warden? The Circle was perfectly fine and it's made clear that the Mage Warden is Irving's pupil, so they wouldn't have failed their Harrowing. So where is he?

Addai67 wrote...

Are you assuming that Loghain always travels with the King's Army so that wherever it goes, he has to be there?

Yes, as he's the General of the Army. And his men are there already, telling me they've gathered up everything.

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan doesn't have to have traveled with Cailan to Ostagar to know (or assume) that Cailan is there. He can have heard a report that Cailan is at Ostagar, or was going there.

But he did. The Grey Wardens went to the King and told him of the Blight, to which he marshalled his forces together and they marched on. Duncan's even seen the horde himself, remember? That places him at Ostagar -- as the Wilds are "the eye of the Blight's storm" -- and he says the King is there.

Addai67 wrote...

Some assumptions on my part...

- Loghain does not set out to Ostagar with Cailan. He's in Denerim, probably waiting for other troops to arrive.

Which, logistically from a military perspective, doesn't make sense either for me. Why would all of Ferelden's forces march to Denerim just to be told "Let's go south now!". Seems way too much like wasting resources.

Wouldn't they be all be heading south? Indeed, that's what Bryce's men do, Urien's men do -- though they're in Denerim already so it just saves time -- and what Eamon says he'll do if Cailan asks him to gather his men. Why would they go to Denerim, when their king is at Ostagar and that's the place they should be going to? 

Wouldn't Loghain head out to Gwaren to muster his own troops together, if he was indeed at Denerim during the time the King was told of the Blight? 

Addai67 wrote...

Jowan was cornered near Redcliffe, so he had probably crossed the lake.

Was this something Irminric said? My mind's saying yes.

EDIT: Indeed, Irminric says as much.

Addai67 wrote...

According to Teagan it's a day's journey across the lake to the Circle

By boat. It'd probably take longer to swim the distance, especially if the water's cold.

Some agents of Loghain (I take it he had people watching Eamon) take him out of the templars' hands and bring him to Denerim to be interrogated by Loghain personally.

The only person watching Eamon was Berwick, and he was working for someone working for Howe -- a person Loghain went to for help after Ostagar. Now, we do know Loghain's men took Jowan from Irminric -- he says he captured Jowan, but the Teyrn's men took Jowan away -- but it's never said anywhere that Loghain had anyone other then Berwick in Redcliffe, at any point.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[DreGregoire]

Duncan talks to Eamon sometime before arriving in Ostagar with the PC warden recruit and I've always assumed that this conversation took place in Redcliff as a stop on the way to or a side trip on the way to Ostagar after obtaining the PC warden recruit. So I also assume before Ostagar things are fine in Redcliff; therefore, the events that happen in Redcliff happen after Loghain has passed through Lothering on his way to Denerim, maybe even as late as after Loghain has returned to Denerim. We are never given a specific time for how long the warden lies in bed injured before awaking. The conversation with Flemeth lets us know that time has indeed passed. In Lothering there is opportunity to discuss what Loghain did once reaching Denerim, this leads me to believe that a good portion of time has indeed passed. Somewhere I have figures on how long it would take to get places in Ferelden on foot, but I don't want to take the time to look it up, because likely somebody would argue anyways. LOL!

This all aside, I like the idea of a character like Loghain but I would like a character that allowed for us to make more choices (than the Loghain story allowed) in how to deal with that character.

Edit: One more thing. There has been many fights between the Kings forces and the darkspawn before Duncan returns to Ostagar with his newest recruit. So I would say it is very difficult to determine what troops arrived when etc etc. No matter if Loghain and Cailan travelled together or not there was plenty of opportunity for one to arrive a bit later. I figure that given who Loghain is he is more likely to travel to Ostagar at the same time as the King or maybe even before. Loghain was definately gone long enough for Howe to brave doing things without Loghain's knowledge.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 10 janvier 2013 - 07:48 .

[AlexanderCousland]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I took it that you travel around with Duncan to look for recruits from all of the other Origins that Duncan visits. Just that you don't find any or they all end up among the unnamed dead Wardens at Ostagar.

Not so. In the Dwarf Commoner Origin, Duncan says they're leaving immediately. He even tells the Proving Master, the Guardsmen, and the other Dwarves there what essentially boils down to "Thanks everyone, this has been fun, gotta go."

When in the Dwarf Noble Origin, he doesn't leave until after the events of the DC origin, so he should've seen the DC in action. Such that Rica will say that after the Proving incident, Duncan immediately wanted to recruit him -- but couldn't find him.

Sure, it's implied that the friend Leske's referring to is the DC and he stopped eating, but then that raises a few questions in and of itself:

1) Who killed Beraht? Jarvia? Not likely, as she liked Beraht and gives no indication that she's going to betray him.

And you never hear of the City Elf Warden ever. Soris talks as if he was the only one who did all the stuff from the Origin. Then remember how it was Duncan's weapons that allowed the City Elves to even rescue the Elves Vaughan took, so how did the Elves get rescued? The riots happened because of what Vaughan did and they happen no matter what origin was done and regardless of if the PC was a CE.

Then what about the Mage Warden? The Circle was perfectly fine and it's made clear that the Mage Warden is Irving's pupil, so they wouldn't have failed their Harrowing. So where is he?

Addai67 wrote...

Are you assuming that Loghain always travels with the King's Army so that wherever it goes, he has to be there?

Yes, as he's the General of the Army. And his men are there already, telling me they've gathered up everything.

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan doesn't have to have traveled with Cailan to Ostagar to know (or assume) that Cailan is there. He can have heard a report that Cailan is at Ostagar, or was going there.

But he did. The Grey Wardens went to the King and told him of the Blight, to which he marshalled his forces together and they marched on. Duncan's even seen the horde himself, remember? That places him at Ostagar -- as the Wilds are "the eye of the Blight's storm" -- and he says the King is there.

Addai67 wrote...

Some assumptions on my part...

- Loghain does not set out to Ostagar with Cailan. He's in Denerim, probably waiting for other troops to arrive.

Which, logistically from a military perspective, doesn't make sense either for me. Why would all of Ferelden's forces march to Denerim just to be told "Let's go south now!". Seems way too much like wasting resources.

Wouldn't they be all be heading south? Indeed, that's what Bryce's men do, Urien's men do -- though they're in Denerim already so it just saves time -- and what Eamon says he'll do if Cailan asks him to gather his men. Why would they go to Denerim, when their king is at Ostagar and that's the place they should be going to? 

Wouldn't Loghain head out to Gwaren to muster his own troops together, if he was indeed at Denerim during the time the King was told of the Blight? 

Addai67 wrote...

Jowan was cornered near Redcliffe, so he had probably crossed the lake.

Was this something Irminric said? My mind's saying yes.

EDIT: Indeed, Irminric says as much.

Addai67 wrote...

According to Teagan it's a day's journey across the lake to the Circle

By boat. It'd probably take longer to swim the distance, especially if the water's cold.

Some agents of Loghain (I take it he had people watching Eamon) take him out of the templars' hands and bring him to Denerim to be interrogated by Loghain personally.

The only person watching Eamon was Berwick, and he was working for someone working for Howe -- a person Loghain went to for help after Ostagar. Now, we do know Loghain's men took Jowan from Irminric -- he says he captured Jowan, but the Teyrn's men took Jowan away -- but it's never said anywhere that Loghain had anyone other then Berwick in Redcliffe, at any point.

I think your pondering too hard on this one my friend. Lohgain is Teryn who has his own Bann' s and Airlings sworn to him, he has his own troops in addition to being the General of the King' s armies. The fact that Lohgain had been in battle with darkspawn prior to Ostagar does not mean he was attached to Cailin' s hip.  Empress Celene was in Denerim (cut content) at some point before Ostagar, Im postive most of the Nobility were there for her presence, explaining Lohgain meeting Jowan (& Eamons plan to depose Anora and arguement in the tent). Like Gaider says "There is a passage of time" between your Origin story and Ostagar why do you think Cailin, Alistair, and other' s "heard so much about you" before you get there? 

[TEWR]

Empress Celene was in Denerim (cut content) at some point before Ostagar

Not so. That was a scrapped idea, and thus wasn't included as part of the lore. RtO shows us that she's been sending Cailan correspondence from Orlais and that she learned of the Blight from the Warden-Commander of Orlais.

She also says she had to postpone the visit indefinitely because of the Blight, until it was dealt with.

Lohgain is Teryn who has his own Bann' s and Airlings sworn to him, he has his own troops in addition to being the General of the King' s armies

I know, but he needs to marshal them together. The Arls and Banns owe him fealty -- and above Loghain, the King -- so he needs to oversee their gathering of troops.

That's what Bryce was doing -- though Howe ended up being a douchebag.

The fact that Lohgain had been in battle with darkspawn prior to Ostagar does not mean he was attached to Cailin' s hip

If by "prior to Ostagar" you mean prior to when the Warden arrives, I disagree. As Loghain is the General of the armies, he would've gone with Cailan. Cailan can't lead men to save his life, as he finds strategy boring and waves Loghain off anytime the man wants to discuss it with his king.

The battles that have been won during the Mage and HN origin were significant victories, not minor skirmishes. 

There's no way Cailan could've led his men to victory when he doesn't know anything about strategy -- indeed, how he acts during Ostagar is damning of him, as it shows he isn't a strategist.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:59 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Even so, Lohgain does not need to be with Cailin in Lock-Step. It's within the realm of possibility the he could be in Denerim between an Origin story and Ostagar, at the very least because of his Daughter.

Edit : Im not going to argue that Cailin is on par with Napoleon as a battle strategist, but he' s certainly capable of winning a few battle's, If Ostagar was indicative of anything its that the dude was Courageous, foolish as he was I doubt that was his first encounter on the Frontlines. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 janvier 2013 - 11:22 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

FreshIstay wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

But surely the corruption is a means and not and end? I mean what does it accomplish? If "mission accomplished" surely he'd take it back? Is he trying to prevent sythnetics from destroying their creators? Who knows.

That's like saying that, when god flooded earth, if all the sinners jacked Noah's boat and survived, he wouldn't try and kill them again.

I assume thinking was "The world shall suffer for your blasphemy", not "Im going to kill you all because of the Magister' s",  And the world IS SUFFERING from the same corruption that entered the Golden City thus = mission accomplished.

If the Maker is real then if the chant of light is sung from the 4 corners of the world he will return, if he wanted Thedas destroyed that wouldn't be a possibility.

(isnt Noah himself a sinner, did the flood rid the world of all sin?, if the bible is real arent we all Noah' s ancestor' s? we sin, has God killed us all?)

Maybe he's retuning to BRING THE PAIN. but what, are you suggesting he's content to just sit there and watch us fight, with a box of popcorn?

as for the bible, of course it's not real, but you can compare the two as works of fiction. And in the fictional world of dragon age, there could well be a god, Andraste Ashes seemed pretty miraculous.

[AlexanderCousland]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
Maybe he's retuning to BRING THE PAIN. but what, are you suggesting he's content to just sit there and watch us fight, with a box of popcorn?

as for the bible, of course it's not real, but you can compare the two as works of fiction. And in the fictional world of dragon age, there could well be a god, Andraste Ashes seemed pretty miraculous.

  Precisely, He's waiting for Thedasonian' s to stroke his Godly ego for their transgressions. (worshipping old gods)

I think he already brought the pain tho, darkspawn.

[Commander Kurt]

FreshIstay wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


I am. Being sarcastic that is. But thing is, that which really killed them was the writers. And the writers played the scene such that you see (through Duncan's eyes) everyone dying. You see the flairing beacon. You see rage and confusion, and you see the killing blow coming. Betrayal killed them in the game, that's the story.

Of course you're right, it was an insane move to have the wardens on the front line. But that seem to be the way to go strategically speaking, we do the same thing when there are only two of us, one possibly being the new king, after all. 

I dont think the writer' s killed anything, i think it's brilliance on their part that this topic is being discussed. I can sympathise with those who feel Lohgain' s move was a Betrayal, but here' s the juice for me, It was merely a betrayal of emotions. Tactically speaking, Lohgain made the right move. It' s important to remember the battle at Ostagar was lost wether or not Lohgain joined the fray. 

Well, they did kill the wardens. If they wanted the wardens to live, they would have lived. That is not really subject to debate, is it? And I agree that they must have done something right looking at this thread.

Also, it's not really THAT important to remember, seeing as it's only speculation. This is fiction after all, and your guess is as good as mine. I take the clues we get in the game to mean that Loghain was the reason for the battle turning to crap.

[AlexanderCousland]

Commander Kurt wrote...


Well, they did kill the wardens. If they wanted the wardens to live, they would have lived. That is not really subject to debate, is it? And I agree that they must have done something right looking at this thread.

Also, it's not really THAT important to remember, seeing as it's only speculation. This is fiction after all, and your guess is as good as mine. I take the clues we get in the game to mean that Loghain was the reason for the battle turning to crap.

Well, here' s the thing.

It' s been confirmed by Gaider that Ostagar was a losing battle, The Darkspawn were going to win regardless of what Lohgain did. So yes, it' s important to remember.

Want proof? The Etheral Writer Redux will provide you a direct link to the forum post Gaider revealed that info if you ask him., he might even provide you with a diagram for the battle to show why Cailin couldnt be saved, and explain why our Warden' s may have had just as much culpability in Cailin' s death as we blame Lohgain for.  but I digress. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 janvier 2013 - 12:16 .

[Commander Kurt]

FreshIstay wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


Well, they did kill the wardens. If they wanted the wardens to live, they would have lived. That is not really subject to debate, is it? And I agree that they must have done something right looking at this thread.

Also, it's not really THAT important to remember, seeing as it's only speculation. This is fiction after all, and your guess is as good as mine. I take the clues we get in the game to mean that Loghain was the reason for the battle turning to crap.

Well, here' s the thing.

It' s been confirmed by Gaider that Ostagar was a losing battle, The Darkspawn were going to win regardless of what Lohgain did. So yes, it' s important to remember.

Want proof? The Etheral Writer Redux will provide you a direct link to the forum post Gaider revealed that info if you ask him., he might even provide you with a diagram for the battle to show why Cailin couldnt be saved, and explain why our Warden' s may have had just as much culpability in Cailin' s death as we blame Lohgain for.  but I digress. 

Actually I just read up on this and Gaider said (as far as I remember) that how the battle would have ended without the treason is for every player to decide for themselves. The point of the post was that Loghain saw it this way.

The diagram is interesting, I'll admit. Still, we only make ourselves look foolish if we think for one moment that we have enough information to KNOW much of anything that isn't spelled out for us in the game. This is fiction, it isn't a historical event. It happens in a fantasy world and is the mind-child of a bunch of writers who are not perfect. The story doesn't always make sense, and what happens "off camera" is really anybodys guess.

Is it LOGICAL to assume that the battle was hopeless? I don't know. I'll never know if I don't know specifics about who fought, their numbers, their strengths, details on the battleground, and so on in all eternity. Seriously, we're throwing around guesses and theories here for a bit of fun, but we don't know anything.

Do I want proof? Yes, I do want proof actually. Just in the traditional sense of the word rather than a mis-quote and a really cool pic someone drew on how they think it would have all gone down.

[AlexanderCousland]

Commander Kurt wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


Well, they did kill the wardens. If they wanted the wardens to live, they would have lived. That is not really subject to debate, is it? And I agree that they must have done something right looking at this thread.

Also, it's not really THAT important to remember, seeing as it's only speculation. This is fiction after all, and your guess is as good as mine. I take the clues we get in the game to mean that Loghain was the reason for the battle turning to crap.

Well, here' s the thing.

It' s been confirmed by Gaider that Ostagar was a losing battle, The Darkspawn were going to win regardless of what Lohgain did. So yes, it' s important to remember.

Want proof? The Etheral Writer Redux will provide you a direct link to the forum post Gaider revealed that info if you ask him., he might even provide you with a diagram for the battle to show why Cailin couldnt be saved, and explain why our Warden' s may have had just as much culpability in Cailin' s death as we blame Lohgain for.  but I digress. 

Actually I just read up on this and Gaider said (as far as I remember) that how the battle would have ended without the treason is for every player to decide for themselves. The point of the post was that Loghain saw it this way.

The diagram is interesting, I'll admit. Still, we only make ourselves look foolish if we think for one moment that we have enough information to KNOW much of anything that isn't spelled out for us in the game. This is fiction, it isn't a historical event. It happens in a fantasy world and is the mind-child of a bunch of writers who are not perfect. The story doesn't always make sense, and what happens "off camera" is really anybodys guess.

Is it LOGICAL to assume that the battle was hopeless? I don't know. I'll never know if I don't know specifics about who fought, their numbers, their strengths, details on the battleground, and so on in all eternity. Seriously, we're throwing around guesses and theories here for a bit of fun, but we don't know anything.

Do I want proof? Yes, I do want proof actually. Just in the traditional sense of the word rather than a mis-quote and a really cool pic someone drew on how they think it would have all gone down.

Here' s were the guessing and speculation ends :

The battle would not have resulted in a victory for anyone other then the darkspawn. David Gaider confirms this. No mis-quote. 

everything else besides ^that is from Lohgain' s perspective and therefore debatable. 

[Commander Kurt]

FreshIstay wrote...


Here' s were the guessing and speculation ends :

The battle would not have resulted in a victory for anyone other then the darkspawn. David Gaider confirms this. No mis-quote. 

everything else besides ^that is from Lohgain' s perspective and therefore debatable. 

Below is a snip from this thread, just a couple pages left;

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider's comment about Loghain and the darkspawn forces at Ostagar:

David Gaider wrote...

dan107 wrote...

However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

Gaider does make the comment a few posts later (on the same page, right here) that Loghain hoped Cailan would see reason, even though he wasn't expecting him to.

That's where I read it (I bolded the text). I'm posting this in the hopes that you actually learn something; tone it down a bit. Having some humility won't kill you.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, as he's the General of the Army. And his men are there already, telling me they've gathered up everything.

That's an assumption, but I don't know of anything that makes it a fact.  Cailan is commanding the armies and he is relying a lot on the Grey Wardens, as we know.

But he did. The Grey Wardens went to the King and told him of the Blight, to which he marshalled his forces together and they marched on. Duncan's even seen the horde himself, remember? That places him at Ostagar -- as the Wilds are "the eye of the Blight's storm" -- and he says the King is there.

He could have seen the horde at an earlier time.  It takes time to muster an army.  And all communications with Cailan could have been by messenger.

Which, logistically from a military perspective, doesn't make sense either for me. Why would all of Ferelden's forces march to Denerim just to be told "Let's go south now!". Seems way too much like wasting resources.

A mustering point, and they wouldn't have to be far-flung.  We know only that Dragon's Peak and White River were called , Denerim's forces, with Highever and Amaranthine coming later.  It makes perfect sense logistically.  You don't send small bands haphazardly into a war zone.  That is dangerous even with modern communications.

Wouldn't Loghain head out to Gwaren to muster his own troops together, if he was indeed at Denerim during the time the King was told of the Blight?

He doesn't seem to have been in Gwaren personally very often.  He was based out of Denerim.

The only person watching Eamon was Berwick, and he was working for someone working for Howe -- a person Loghain went to for help after Ostagar. Now, we do know Loghain's men took Jowan from Irminric -- he says he captured Jowan, but the Teyrn's men took Jowan away -- but it's never said anywhere that Loghain had anyone other then Berwick in Redcliffe, at any point.

So you can't assume that Berwick was the only one there.  You say it yourself- if we know Loghain's men took Jowan from the templars, there had to be more than just him.

I really think this is simply a matter of your assumptions not being flexible enough to allow for events, not any actual logical inconsistency.  No offense.  Timeline is a b*tch, I know.  For events after Ostagar to work, we also have to assume the Warden and Alistair were in the Wilds for some time, otherwise Redcliffe's knights could not be in the Lothering area already looking for the Urn.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If by "prior to Ostagar" you mean prior to when the Warden arrives, I disagree. As Loghain is the General of the armies, he would've gone with Cailan. Cailan can't lead men to save his life, as he finds strategy boring and waves Loghain off anytime the man wants to discuss it with his king.

The battles that have been won during the Mage and HN origin were significant victories, not minor skirmishes. 

There's no way Cailan could've led his men to victory when he doesn't know anything about strategy -- indeed, how he acts during Ostagar is damning of him, as it shows he isn't a strategist.

Again, I think you're making serious assumptions here and possibly overthinking.  Cailan was trained by Maric and Loghain.  His "ugh, strategy" is, I think, partly just a breezy attitude.  He's no genius and is subject to hubris, but there's no reason to think that he, his guard and the majority of Ferelden's Grey Wardens couldn't have won a few victories without Loghain being personally present.  We don't even know what sort of engagements these were- they could have been the AD flinging a few genlocks at the fortress to test its defenses.  This would be sound strategy on his part.

[Plaintiff]

FreshIstay wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

But surely the corruption is a means and not and end? I mean what does it accomplish? If "mission accomplished" surely he'd take it back? Is he trying to prevent sythnetics from destroying their creators? Who knows.

That's like saying that, when god flooded earth, if all the sinners jacked Noah's boat and survived, he wouldn't try and kill them again.

I assume thinking was "The world shall suffer for your blasphemy", not "Im going to kill you all because of the Magister' s",  And the world IS SUFFERING from the same corruption that entered the Golden City thus = mission accomplished.

If the Maker is real then if the chant of light is sung from the 4 corners of the world he will return, if he wanted Thedas destroyed that wouldn't be a possibility.

(isnt Noah himself a sinner, did the flood rid the world of all sin?, if the bible is real arent we all Noah' s ancestor' s? we sin, has God killed us all?)

Not to say that I give any credence to the Bible, because I don't, but it does state that Noah is a "righteous" man, as opposed to everyone else on the planet, who is apparently not. If he does sin, it is not with the same frequency or order of magnitude as his fellows.

Also, after the flood recedes and Noah and his family disembark, God agrees to a covenant with Noah, that the Earth shall never again be destroyed by a flood. According to the myth as related in the Holy Bible, rainbows are a sign of this covenant.

You can keep talking about Dragon Age now.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 janvier 2013 - 05:56 .

[Pelle6666]

Logain was a true nemesis with an interesting back story, that is something that we need to have in a game like this. We had it in DA:O and we had it in ME so I agree! We need a Logain-like nemesis!

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Plaintiff wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

But surely the corruption is a means and not and end? I mean what does it accomplish? If "mission accomplished" surely he'd take it back? Is he trying to prevent sythnetics from destroying their creators? Who knows.

That's like saying that, when god flooded earth, if all the sinners jacked Noah's boat and survived, he wouldn't try and kill them again.

I assume thinking was "The world shall suffer for your blasphemy", not "Im going to kill you all because of the Magister' s",  And the world IS SUFFERING from the same corruption that entered the Golden City thus = mission accomplished.

If the Maker is real then if the chant of light is sung from the 4 corners of the world he will return, if he wanted Thedas destroyed that wouldn't be a possibility.

(isnt Noah himself a sinner, did the flood rid the world of all sin?, if the bible is real arent we all Noah' s ancestor' s? we sin, has God killed us all?)

Not to say that I give any credence to the Bible, because I don't, but it does state that Noah is a "righteous" man, as opposed to everyone else on the planet, who is apparently not. If he does sin, it is not with the same frequency or order of magnitude as his fellows.

Also, after the flood recedes and Noah and his family disembark, God agrees to a covenant with Noah, that the Earth shall never again be destroyed by a flood. According to the myth as related in the Hily Bible, rainbows are a sign of this covenant.

You can keep talking about Dragon Age now.

But I don't want to. Cool story bro, I'm actually now amazed how much of an analogy the flood can be used for Darkspawn. So maybe we need to have the Darkspawn kill all the sinners to get a covenant from the maker?

[AlexanderCousland]

Commander Kurt wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...


Here' s were the guessing and speculation ends :

The battle would not have resulted in a victory for anyone other then the darkspawn. David Gaider confirms this. No mis-quote. 

everything else besides ^that is from Lohgain' s perspective and therefore debatable. 

Below is a snip from this thread, just a couple pages left;

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider's comment about Loghain and the darkspawn forces at Ostagar:

David Gaider wrote...

dan107 wrote...

However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

Gaider does make the comment a few posts later (on the same page, right here) that Loghain hoped Cailan would see reason, even though he wasn't expecting him to.

That's where I read it (I bolded the text). I'm posting this in the hopes that you actually learn something; tone it down a bit. Having some humility won't kill you.

passive aggressiveness certainly wont do anything for the Hope' s you have.
Pax video 2010 ustream, check it out.
The part your leaving out is, "IN MY MIND (Gaider' s)"  Lohgain would have joined the battle if he thought he could win, which imply' s that  Gaider Himself beleive' s Lohgain would have helped if he thought they could win, which also means regardless of what happend his intentions were not for Cailin to die, which then means this "terrible betrayal" was only a betrayal of emotions.  " He left the King to die:crying:"........<_<

sure, he leaves it open for you to interpret Lohgain' s character yourself, but if we are gonna read & bold words to prove a point  let' s discuss all the words that were typed. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:03 .

[AlexanderCousland]

oopps.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:01 .

[Commander Kurt]

FreshIstay wrote...

oopps.

It seems we are at an inpasse. I either believe that you have managed to forget what we were actually discussing and that is the reason for the change in subject, or I don't.

Well, to save you from holding your breath; I don't. Good luck with life and everything.

[AlexanderCousland]

Commander Kurt wrote...

It seems we are at an inpasse. I either believe that you have managed to forget what we were actually discussing and that is the reason for the change in subject, or I don't.

Well, to save you from holding your breath; I don't. Good luck with life and everything.

sure, same to you.