597 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

I'm sure I'll take great pleasure in decapitating anyone who is even slightly like Loghain.

[daft inquisitor]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
His relatable personality was part of it, if you ask me. With good verbal skills, you could learn that a lot of what he did was him freaking out in honest fear that his nation would be overrun (either by Darkspawn or political enemies), his daughter taken from him in a variety of ways (or running away, even), or simple erratic paranoia. He was a relatable character because, in tramatic and stressful times, a lot of us have been known to do bad things with good intentions. It's kind of the human way.

He made a great villain because, despite thinking he was a backstabbing lunatic the entire time I was fighting him, it was when I had the chance to talk to him that I found I might just have done the same thing in his shoes.

But he was a backstabbing lunatic, the fact that the writers tried to give him "good intentions" only made the character more laughable. Loghains actions might have been more convincing if he was merely a selfish bastard using the Darkspawn chaos to make a bid for power but the fact the writers tried to make out that Loghain was only doing what he thought was best for the country reeks of bad writing.

But ok, you pull your army back from a real threat to the south (leaving the king to die in the process) to focus on an imaginary threat to the west which in turn allows the Darkspawn to roam unopposed over Fereldan destroying every village they come across and murdering its inhabitants, you send a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon because why the hell not? And then you think "Hmm, I am not convinced the player thinks I am evil enough. I know, lets sell the elves to the Tevinter Imperium as slaves" because you are not only a bastard but a racist too. Are these really the actions you would have performed had you been in Loghains shoes? Do you really think that these are the actions of a man who is only doing what he thinks is best for his country?

While I don't completely agree 100% with the decisions, I can say that, yes, I might have done the same in the pressure of living in his shoes.

He was selling the elven slaves to Tevinter (maybe even human slaves, too, we just never saw them) as a bid for their favor. As someone said earlier, he was trying to get the Tevinter Imperium on his side, hoping they could help with the war effort. Honestly, a league of powerful mages will help a lot more against the darkspawn than a handfull of warriors that would die all too easily. (Gameplay/Story Segregation, here. Normal humans die REALLY EASILY to Darkspawn.) The same with the Circle. He knew he could use their power a lot more efficiently than having them holed up in a tower, so he worked with Ulric to set them free. That... was probably a bad decision on his part. He might not have known Ulric for the blood mage he was, so I can at least justify that one in my head as being an "Oops" moment.

Poisoning Eamon was a great political move on his part, because Eamon was shown to hold a LOT of political power, which made him a huge stepping stone with the other nobles. With Eamon alive, he would just block his progress at every turn. Poisoning a desenter so his voice is never raised against you is a great way to stop him from getting in the way of your plans.

As for sacrificing Cailin, it was blatantly said that his force was just WAY TOO SMALL. What was Loghain supposed to do? Charge into battle and get the rest of the Denerim armies slaughtered and automatically lose the war just over one idiot and a small legion of a couple hundred soldiers? Yeah, because THAT isn't how you lose a nation right there...

They were hard decisions, but they made sense to be made, to an extent. As I said, all of the pressure that was put on him probably made some of the decisions skewed a little, but if not for the interference of the Grey Warden, I'll say that Loghain might have had a decent chance agains the Darkspawn. Err... at least until the Archdemon showed up, anyway. But then, he DID have Roridain and a few of the Orlesian wardens in Denerim at the time, so again, he might have stood a chance.

Plaintiff wrote...
I'm sure I'll take great pleasure in decapitating anyone who is even slightly like Loghain.

Yeah, that sentiment surely isn't going overboard at all.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 29 décembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[nightscrawl]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

Meredith had the potential to approach that level of writing mastery but, as with many other aspects of DA 2, her character was poorly implemented -- we didn't see enough personal nuances to justify her paranoia. We were told about it but the specific examples we saw were limited but some of the best Meredith moments are the rare occasion she genuinely shows remorse for what she thinks she must do (a nice contrast from Loghain, who never showed remorse), such as when she pushes for the right of anulment and, if challenged by pointing out all the innocent victims, she says "I know, and it breaks my heart to do it." Unfortunately, these moments and two-dimensional aspects of her character weren't fleshed out enough and the fact that they relied on the red lyrium as a deus ex machania to drive her insane for purely supernatural reasons, really detracted from her character and cheapened the climax of the game.

If Flemeth or Morrigan turn out to be primary antagonists, they may very well be the most compelling villains yet.

I hope that Flemeth doesn't turn out to be a direct antagonist. I much prefer the elusive omnipotent figure we have currently.

Part of the fault with Meredith was that it was all held off until Act 3. Even then, you don't learn some personal aspects about her unless you explicitly side the with templars in the opening dialog between her and Orsino.

The difference between Loghain and Meredith is that, while Loghain was a villain, he was not the villain. Specifically, he wasn't the "final boss" of the game. Loghain was a stepping stone, which is what made the existence of the choice to spare or kill possible in the first place. The same can be said of the Architect in DAA. You can kill or spare him, but you ultimately fight the Mother in the end.

Having that same choice for an end-game boss like Meredith would certainly be interesting, but I think it requires variable content. If on one path you have this huge battle and this other path you have some additional story stuff, I doubt the devs would see that as an equal tradeoff. The divergent paths would have to be separate but equal, so the player has the same incentive to choose one or the other.

To me, the perfect outcome for DA2 would have been that the boss battle changes depending on who you side with. If you side with the templars you fight Orsino, if you side with mages you fight Meredith. However, this would have required some story elements to be different, such as her descent into madness and usurpation of the viscountship.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 décembre 2012 - 12:44 .

[Chewin]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

What I like in Loghain is that he is a rather a-typical character, because he is not inherently evil. In many ways Loghain is just compassionate about his country to the point of fanatical protection. Loghain began the game as a shady usurper to the throne who seemed to take advantage of a situation for his own goals. As we see throughout the events of Origins he is much deeper than that; his motives are benign for his people, not himself, despite how extreme they are. He is conflicted by these motivations at times, but Loghain constantly keeps them in line, putting the protection of the people from Orlais first, no matter how paranoid or misguided it may be. In the end, Loghain is not exactly a villain in the traditional sense of wanting power for his own ends. In actuality, all of his tactical moves to preserve Fereldens freedom result into a civil war within the country, something he laments towards the end of the Blight.

Loghain is very much a social conservative. He is proud of the Ferelden heritage he fought so hard to regain control of, and does not want to compromise it once again. His motivation is not to gain control of the throne nor to even let the Blight continue. His motivation is the preservation of his country. Other than his daughter Anora, he only wants to preserve Ferelden by any means, and for him the ends will justify his means, no matter how colored the perception may be. Most of this, mind you, is stemmed from a bitter hatred against Orlais. But it is this grudge that becomes his tragic flaw; it begins his own descent in hostilities against the very nation he tries to desperately protect.

Ultimately, Loghain Mac Tir is just a man from a different line of thinking, a socially and politically opposite to the protagonists in the game. This makes him your adversary, but not a true evil force. You can have compassion and pity for his actions as he slowly loses his grip on the situation, and you see it unravel as your player character gains control of things, including his own fate. Loghain is a fascinating look at how ideals can divide us and old grudges can twist these ideals into something malicious. He is a character with character because he is not a bad guy in the usual sense, but rather a man who chose the wrong side because of his past experiences, only to realize close to his own demise that he was wrong in that choice.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Dorrieb wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...
I agree completely. As a plus, he's a badass father-in-law to the Cousland Warden

Considering what he did to his last son-in-law, I'm not sure that's such a great thing. One little disagreement over policy and you'd be constantly looking over your shoulder!

Cailan was an idiot. End of story.

So glad Loghain killed him because if he hadn't then I probably would have.

[daft inquisitor]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...
I agree completely. As a plus, he's a badass father-in-law to the Cousland Warden

Considering what he did to his last son-in-law, I'm not sure that's such a great thing. One little disagreement over policy and you'd be constantly looking over your shoulder!

Cailan was an idiot. End of story.

So glad Loghain killed him because if he hadn't then I probably would have.

He was probably a good king, but he was an AWFUL tactician. If he had just listened to his damned father-in-law, everything would have turned out differently.  And I mean EVERYTHING.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[Herr Uhl]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Cailan was an idiot. End of story.

So glad Loghain killed him because if he hadn't then I probably would have.

He was probably a good king, but he was an AWFUL tactician. If he had just listened to his damned father-in-law, everything would have turned out differently.  And I mean EVERYTHING.

Eh, same thing could be said about how everything would have turned out differently if Loghain listened to his damn son-in-law and accepted Orlesian aid.

Edit: As the main problem with the batte was them being vastly outnumbered.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:44 .

[Fiery Knight]

Chewin3 wrote...

*snip*

Well said! Agreed with all of this!


And concerning DA3, I sure hope the DA team can write a character just as well written as Loghain.

[Althix]

And why Loghain is a bad guy in the first place? He looks like a decent general, warrior and great addition to the Grey Wardens. Besides, when you join the Wardens you left all past behind. The very fact that Alistair is tend to forget.
As a fighting unit he is superior to Alistair, as character he is much better as well.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
His relatable personality was part of it, if you ask me. With good verbal skills, you could learn that a lot of what he did was him freaking out in honest fear that his nation would be overrun (either by Darkspawn or political enemies), his daughter taken from him in a variety of ways (or running away, even), or simple erratic paranoia. He was a relatable character because, in tramatic and stressful times, a lot of us have been known to do bad things with good intentions. It's kind of the human way.

He made a great villain because, despite thinking he was a backstabbing lunatic the entire time I was fighting him, it was when I had the chance to talk to him that I found I might just have done the same thing in his shoes.

But he was a backstabbing lunatic, the fact that the writers tried to give him "good intentions" only made the character more laughable. Loghains actions might have been more convincing if he was merely a selfish bastard using the Darkspawn chaos to make a bid for power but the fact the writers tried to make out that Loghain was only doing what he thought was best for the country reeks of bad writing.

But ok, you pull your army back from a real threat to the south (leaving the king to die in the process) to focus on an imaginary threat to the west which in turn allows the Darkspawn to roam unopposed over Fereldan destroying every village they come across and murdering its inhabitants, you send a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon because why the hell not? And then you think "Hmm, I am not convinced the player thinks I am evil enough. I know, lets sell the elves to the Tevinter Imperium as slaves" because you are not only a bastard but a racist too. Are these really the actions you would have performed had you been in Loghains shoes? Do you really think that these are the actions of a man who is only doing what he thinks is best for his country?

While I don't completely agree 100% with the decisions, I can say that, yes, I might have done the same in the pressure of living in his shoes.

Then we need to ask what kind of a man you are? Now you say that you might have done the same were you in his shoes but what would be your reasons for doing such things? Would you have done them thinking that these actions are what is best for your country or would you perform these actions out of selfish greed using the chaos to take control of Fereldan for yourself?

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
He was selling the elven slaves to Tevinter (maybe even human slaves, too, we just never saw them) as a bid for their favor. As someone said earlier, he was trying to get the Tevinter Imperium on his side, hoping they could help with the war effort. Honestly, a league of powerful mages will help a lot more against the darkspawn than a handfull of warriors that would die all too easily. (Gameplay/Story Segregation, here. Normal humans die REALLY EASILY to Darkspawn.)

You will have to show me your source for this as all I can see on the matter is that Tevinter had payed large sums of money for the privilege of being able to take elven slaves from the Denerim alienage while Loghain's troops looked the other way, that is as far as their deal goes and there is no mention of aid from Tevinter against the Darkspawn. But even if this is true and not some half cocked explanation on your part surely Loghain being the "Genius" he was made out to be a few posts back would see that Tevinter isnt exactly the most faithful ally as evident by the fact that he pretty much gets betrayed the moment the Warden stumbles onto their little slave trading opperation, besides I am not exactly sure Tevinter is really in the best position to be offerring aid due to the fact that they are constantly fighting the Qun.

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
Poisoning Eamon was a great political move on his part, because Eamon was shown to hold a LOT of political power, which made him a huge stepping stone with the other nobles. With Eamon alive, he would just block his progress at every turn. Poisoning a desenter so his voice is never raised against you is a great way to stop him from getting in the way of your plans.

True but is it an action that was made in the best interests of Fereldan or was Eamon just an obstacle to Loghain's selfish bid for power?

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
As for sacrificing Cailin, it was blatantly said that his force was just WAY TOO SMALL. What was Loghain supposed to do? Charge into battle and get the rest of the Denerim armies slaughtered and automatically lose the war just over one idiot and a small legion of a couple hundred soldiers? Yeah, because THAT isn't how you lose a nation right there...

There are a lot of conflicting reports on that, take Aveline's assessment of the situation

"We fell to betrayal not the darkspawn"

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
They were hard decisions, but they made sense to be made, to an extent. As I said, all of the pressure that was put on him probably made some of the decisions skewed a little, but if not for the interference of the Grey Warden, I'll say that Loghain might have had a decent chance agains the Darkspawn. Err... at least until the Archdemon showed up, anyway.

No Loghains actions would have only doomed Fereldan further and to try and claim those actions were "in the best interests of his country" is laughable at best. It would have been more convincing to merely have Loghain as a selfish usurper but to try slap noble intentions on these actions in some lame play at featuring the tragic villain in your story is just plain bad writing.

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
But then, he DID have Roridain and a few of the Orlesian wardens in Denerim at the time, so again, he might have stood a chance.

No he only had Roridain and I am pretty sure Loghain would have had him executed before he let him anywhere near the Archdemon.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Chewin3 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

What I like in Loghain is that he is a rather a-typical character, because he is not inherently evil. In many ways Loghain is just compassionate about his country to the point of fanatical protection. Loghain began the game as a shady usurper to the throne who seemed to take advantage of a situation for his own goals. As we see throughout the events of Origins he is much deeper than that; his motives are benign for his people, not himself, despite how extreme they are. He is conflicted by these motivations at times, but Loghain constantly keeps them in line, putting the protection of the people from Orlais first, no matter how paranoid or misguided it may be. In the end, Loghain is not exactly a villain in the traditional sense of wanting power for his own ends. In actuality, all of his tactical moves to preserve Fereldens freedom result into a civil war within the country, something he laments towards the end of the Blight.

Loghain is very much a social conservative. He is proud of the Ferelden heritage he fought so hard to regain control of, and does not want to compromise it once again. His motivation is not to gain control of the throne nor to even let the Blight continue. His motivation is the preservation of his country. Other than his daughter Anora, he only wants to preserve Ferelden by any means, and for him the ends will justify his means, no matter how colored the perception may be. Most of this, mind you, is stemmed from a bitter hatred against Orlais. But it is this grudge that becomes his tragic flaw; it begins his own descent in hostilities against the very nation he tries to desperately protect.

Ultimately, Loghain Mac Tir is just a man from a different line of thinking, a socially and politically opposite to the protagonists in the game. This makes him your adversary, but not a true evil force. You can have compassion and pity for his actions as he slowly loses his grip on the situation, and you see it unravel as your player character gains control of things, including his own fate. Loghain is a fascinating look at how ideals can divide us and old grudges can twist these ideals into something malicious. He is a character with character because he is not a bad guy in the usual sense, but rather a man who chose the wrong side because of his past experiences, only to realize close to his own demise that he was wrong in that choice.

So what you are saying is that Loghain is such a well writen character is because he is a patriot with good intentions who hates Orlais? Never mind the fact that most of his actions totally contradict these qualities (apart from the "hates Orlais" part) and that there is no real justification for his actions other than the fact the game needed a more human antagonist. At best his actions can be justified as a greedy bid for power (even though the game tries to claim that this is not the case) otherwise there is no real reason for the character to have performed such actions other than the fact that the writers felt the need to make him out to be a villain for the sake of having a human antagonist.

This is not good writing, FAR from it, slapping "good intentions" on a character does not make him deep especially when his actions totally contradict these "good intentions".

[DarthLaxian]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm sure I'll take great pleasure in decapitating anyone who is even slightly like Loghain.

well - yes, i would like that (what i would like even more if this new Loghain like enemy is betraying YOU (like Loghain with Cailan) - and it should not happen all the time, just if you do certain things that he does not like or if you side against him often enough it would be fun hunting down a person you used to trust (and it would get you much more involved on a personal level because of the betrayal ...might be even better if he was your LI (you should be able to find a new LI after the betrayal of course otherwise this ruins the story IMHO)

so...need to go (will write more later)

greetings LAX

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 29 décembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[Chewin]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Never mind the fact that most of his actions totally contradict these qualities (apart from the "hates Orlais" part)

Does he now? While yes certain actions of his are questionable, his motives were always the safety of Ferelden. Everything from the death of Cailan to the poisoning of Arl Eamon had a reason to them. 

and that there is no real justification for his actions other than the fact the game needed a more human antagonist.

Yes there is, and no it wasn't b/c the game needed a human antagonist.

At best his actions can be justified as a greedy bid for power (even though the game tries to claim that this is not the case) otherwise there is no real reason for the character to have performed such actions other than the fact that the writers felt the need to make him out to be a villain for the sake of having a human antagonist.

Greed? I'd hardly consider wanting to unite the country in it's time of crisis and choosing to put Anora as Queen with him reorganizing the resources for defences against the Darkspawn (which he considered a minor threat) and Orlesians as being greedy.

This is not good writing, FAR from it, slapping "good intentions" on a character does not make him deep especially when his actions totally contradict these "good intentions"

Expect that in this case it doesn't contradict his intensions.

[daft inquisitor]

Sure Gandalf, you win. I'm not going to turn this into a damn flame war. You see it how you want to see it, and I'll see it how it was written. Nothing I or anybody else says will sway your decision, so I give up. Have it your way.

@Chewin: Great post.

[Ruairi46]

Loghain is a very well written character, also If you know all his backstory it just backs it up that he is a good strong character. Anyone who say's otherwise I would like to see them create better.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Chewin3 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Never mind the fact that most of his actions totally contradict these qualities (apart from the "hates Orlais" part)

Does he now? While yes certain actions of his are questionable, his motives were always the safety of Ferelden. Everything from the death of Cailan to the poisoning of Arl Eamon had a reason to them. 

Could have fooled me, is Lothering not a part of Ferelden? Or just a part of it that isnt worth keeping safe?

Chewin3 wrote...

and that there is no real justification for his actions other than the fact the game needed a more human antagonist.

Yes there is, and no it wasn't b/c the game needed a human antagonist.

At best his actions can be justified as a greedy bid for power (even though the game tries to claim that this is not the case) otherwise there is no real reason for the character to have performed such actions other than the fact that the writers felt the need to make him out to be a villain for the sake of having a human antagonist.

Greed? I'd hardly consider wanting to unite the country in it's time of crisis and choosing to put Anora as Queen with him reorganizing the resources for defences against the Darkspawn (which he considered a minor threat) and Orlesians as being greedy.

Greed is the only excuse that even has a chance of lending the story any sense of credibility. You claim his actions were made to keep Ferelden safe yet his actions not only failed to keep Ferelden and its people safe but in many cases were actively detrimental to Ferelden's safety, I fail to see what poisoning Eamon has to do with keeping the country safe, in fact it nearly destroyed Redcliffe. I also fail to see what abandoning half the army and the king to die at Ostagar has to do with keeping the country safe. You claim it was because the Darkspawn threat was too great and he did it to save the other half of the army yet you also claim that Loghain diddnt see it as a major threat, the 2 statements contradict each other my dear, If Loghain saw the Darkspawn horde as such a threat that he feels the need to withdraw half the army in order to keep it from being destroyed then perhaps it is a big enough threat to actually take seriously and do something about rather than ignore it and focus on an imaginary threat from Orlais.

[alex90c]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm sure I'll take great pleasure in decapitating anyone who is even slightly like Loghain.

You're such a pleasant person.

[hitenchi]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...
I agree completely. As a plus, he's a badass father-in-law to the Cousland Warden

Considering what he did to his last son-in-law, I'm not sure that's such a great thing. One little disagreement over policy and you'd be constantly looking over your shoulder!

Yup.  Argued, begged, and pleaded with his last son-in-law NOT to fight on the front lines with the Wardens because if something went wrong he couldn't save him.

Loghain tried to save Cailan from himself.  Loghain was being honest when Anora confronted him.

Anora: Did you kill Cailan.
Loghain:  Cailan's death was his own doing.

There is a point to this, since while Loghain did netray Cailan, Cailan didnt seem to be really expecting to win, and from what he said in fact agreeded with Loghain on the fact that the battle was a lost cause, he also does tell him not to go onto the frontlines and return home. Loghain didnt kill Cailhan he let him die in a situation he probably could not of stopped.

[Dorrieb]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...
I agree completely. As a plus, he's a badass father-in-law to the Cousland Warden

Considering what he did to his last son-in-law, I'm not sure that's such a great thing. One little disagreement over policy and you'd be constantly looking over your shoulder!

Yup.  Argued, begged, and pleaded with his last son-in-law NOT to fight on the front lines with the Wardens because if something went wrong he couldn't save him.

Loghain tried to save Cailan from himself.  Loghain was being honest when Anora confronted him.

Anora: Did you kill Cailan.
Loghain:  Cailan's death was his own doing.

Sorry, but I was at Ostagar.  The plan for the battle was made by Loghain himself, just before turning in sinister closeup toward the camera and growling 'yes, Cailan, it will aaaall be over verrry soooon!' and just stopping himself from adding 'mwahahaha!' because it might crack his face in two. He deliberately led them into a slaughter and had planned to do so well in advance. That argument was only a last attempt at changing Cailan's mind before implementing his plan.

And we must remember that he was wrong, about absolutely everything. And goofy Cailan is the one who was right. It was a real blight, it was not an Orlesian plot, the Grey Wardens really were important, the nobles would not fall into line. For a supposed genius he didn't get a single thing right, and he bet the lives of his entire country on it without once stopping to think 'what if I'm wrong?'

[DarthLaxian]

ruairi46 wrote...

Loghain is a very well written character, also If you know all his backstory it just backs it up that he is a good strong character. Anyone who say's otherwise I would like to see them create better.

well creating a better character is no that hard, just take Loghain himself and throw out his paranoia (and his fear that Cailan would send his daughter into exile because firstly he does not love her all that much, secondly because she seems infertile (which was a big problem back then, if you were from a royal family and needed a legitimate heir!) and thirdly because he wants to ally himself with empress celene through marriage!) that Orlais will attack Fereldan anytime now (even if they have enough problems of their own now - rebellion and such things!) and don't make him betray his king, then you have a good and wounderfull character!

but his betrayal negates any good deeds he has done before and thus makes him a bad character IMHO because him betraying Cailan is just so illogical, even more because he is a patriot and should love his king and not kill him in fit of fear (IMHO his betrayal comes from fear, but not for his country - but fear for his daughter and his own position, as Cailan - as stated above wanted to divorce her and he has no love for Loghain himself) that expresses itself in cowardice (he does not face Cailan and ask him to reconsider, he just lets him DIE and tries to grab power via his daugther the queen afterwards - quite illegitimate, too as the queen is not from noble blood and thus has no claim to the throne other then marriage (and that is void because her father killed her husband IMHO)...thus he becomes a power hungry paranoid maniac)

greetings LAX

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

And goofy Cailan is the one who was right. It was a real blight

Which Cailan started to doubt because he didn't get to see any dragons and because it wasn't living up to "the tales in the legends".

it was not an Orlesian plot

That's easy to say when you know for certain. It's harder to be so sure when history says Orlais has used the Blights as a pretense for conquering other nations, even going so far as to use the Wardens to their advantage.

the Grey Wardens really were important

Also easy to say when you know why they're so important. If all you have to go off of are their "feelings" and grandiose tales on how they've been present in every Blight -- which says nothing of their necessity, only their presence -- then you're not going to really know if they're truly needed to defeat a Blight.

Never mind how historical events pointed to the Wardens helping Orlais throughout the centuries.

Not even Alistair or the Warden truly knew why they were needed.

about absolutely everything

Well considering half of Orlais wants to reconquer Ferelden after the Blight weakened them, I don't think he was wrong about mistrusting them!

the nobles would not fall into line

They're the ones who started the civil war in the first place, when a damn Blight was going on. Loghain claimed himself Queen Anora's regent, which she never contested in any fashion -- by default meaning she consented to it.

She even says she's okay with him during that first Landsmeet, to Teagan's face. 

Bann Teagan, my father is doing what is best.

They were the ones gearing up for war, when the damn Queen was fine with what her father was doing.

Is it wise for Loghain to be the Regent considering he's a ****ty politician? No, not really. But that doesn't mean it's okay for the Bannorn to try and force Loghain out when there are Darkspawn on their doorsteps. Deal with Loghain when the nation is safe from the Darkspawn, not during.

The plan for the battle was made by Loghain himself

And he didn't want Cailan out in the field. He says he must repeat his protest to Cailan's notion of fighting on the front lines.

The Hammer&Anvil strategy was devised knowing that the Darkspawn's numbers grew with every engagement, so he wanted to be able to nullify their numbers in the next battle by trapping them between two forces.

But no one was able to anticipate that during that battle their numbers would stretch into the very backwoods of the Wilds itself, thus ruining any plan devised with what forces were present at Ostagar.

That's word of god right there.

Factor in how Cailan ruined Loghain's plan by having his men charge out into the open -- thus exposing their right and left flanks as well as their front -- and Cailan's death was his own doing, though other factors did contribute to Ostagar's failing. And none of them were on the part of Loghain.

Instead of making use of the walls of Ostagar, he sends his men charging out into the open.

He deliberately led them into a slaughter and had planned to do so well in advance.

Wrong.

That argument was only a last attempt at changing Cailan's mind before implementing his plan.

Half-correct. Yes, it was his last attempt at changing Cailan's mind -- which part of him knew wouldn't work, but he still had to make the effort. But he did not have some diabolical plan of evil going on.

DarthLaxian wrote...

IMHO his betrayal comes from fear, but not for his country - but fear for his daughter and his own position, as Cailan - as stated above wanted to divorce her and he has no love for Loghain himself

Your opinion is wrong. Loghain didn't know about Cailan's plan to divorce Anora, as RtO's Loghain dialogue illustrates.

DG originally intended for him to know about it, but Bioware as a whole scrapped that idea, making Loghain in the dark about the whole thing.

Plus, there's the whole promise to Maric thing where if Loghain has to choose between saving the king and saving the nation.... the nation takes priority.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 décembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[TEWR]

Could have fooled me, is Lothering not a part of Ferelden? Or just a part of it that isnt worth keeping safe?

You wanted him to fight an entire horde that decimated the forces at Ostagar -- and would've completely destroyed the entire army there had he charged -- on open plains with only his Teyrnir's forces and one Bann's forces to help him?

I'm sorry, but that is so militarily unsound it's not even funny.

I fail to see what poisoning Eamon has to do with keeping the country safe, in fact it nearly destroyed Redcliffe.

Eamon would've been too blinded by his familial relation to Cailan to understand how Ostagar truly was unwinnable and that Cailan did cause his own death. Eamon would've rallied the nobility to fight Loghain because he would've believed him a simple king-killer, out for power.

Which Loghain isn't.

I also fail to see what abandoning half the army and the king to die at Ostagar has to do with keeping the country safe. You claim it was because the Darkspawn threat was too great and he did it to save the other half of the army yet you also claim that Loghain diddnt see it as a major threat, the 2 statements contradict each other my dear

No they don't.

Loghain saw the Darkspawn as being incredibly numerous and ackowledged that the Darkspawn incursion was a threat.

What he didn't take seriously was that it was a Blight. Not until later on in the game does he come to believe it.

Numbers in and of themselves do not dictate a Blight. A Blight need not occur to see Darkspawn.

If Loghain saw the Darkspawn horde as such a threat that he feels the need to withdraw half the army in order to keep it from being destroyed then perhaps it is a big enough threat to actually take seriously and do something about rather than ignore it and focus on an imaginary threat from Orlais.

I suppose him trying to rally the Landsmeet to unify under his leadership to deal with the Darkspawn immediately after Ostagar was really just him using code words, where "Darkspawn" truly means "Orlesians".

Now for the twelfth time in the past few months, I'm posting my Loghain defense once more.

Loghain was not well written. His Warden recruitment at the end was IMHO, an attempt to fix the cheesy cartoony dark villain he was until the landsmeet.

And he flips 180 degrees. Turns noble, cares about his daughter and the warden.. Very forced and not well written also. But no one can say he was pure evil because he regrets stuff and offers his life.

He always cared about Anora. That whole idea that Loghain would've killed his daughter? Complete BS. Howe approached Loghain with the idea, but Loghain refused to do such a thing -- something he'll tell you if you spare him. 

That wouldn't have stopped Howe from doing such a thing though, because Howe is the very definition of Complete Monster. He does things For the Evulz.

Nope, not buying.

FFS he pratically raised Caillan and left him to die. A good general could have left the battle when he saw their forces outnumbered,

That's what he did. 

You could argue that he should've attempted to save Cailan with a contingent of men ordered to do so -- whether they would succeed is irrelevant, though given how quickly he dies by Ogre and I'm assuming the mass of Darkspawn between Cailan and Loghain he couldn't have been saved -- but he did order a tactical withdrawal from the battlefield when it became apparent that they were outnumbered.

And Cailan's death was his own doing. Cailan was a spoiled brat, wanting to play war and fascinated with glory -- be it glory he wanted or the glory of others in legends.

Had Loghain attempted to rescue Cailan and failed, that would've been a politically sound move to try and get Ferelden to unify under his banner, as he did attempt to save their king.

But no one has ever called Loghain a brilliant politician. He isn't.

but the same good general would not poison the leader of the largest surviving army, refused help and tried to kill the 2 people who could help again the large darkspawn horde he saw with his own 2 eyes.

Writters dropped the ball on Loghain and then tried a Hail Mary saving pass. Didn't save it for me

Yea, no they didn't.

Let's look at if from his perspective, as opposed to the "OMG He's so EVUL!!!" one he's unfortunately painted with all too often.

Eamon was a threat to the nation's well-being after Loghain was forced to make a judgement call at Ostagar. We know that Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar, as Loghain has been with the King at the fortress for the entire time -- something Duncan states in the HN and Mage Origins.

Eamon would've been clouded by his relationship to Cailan and more then likely would've failed to see the actual necessity of the withdrawal. He would've instigated a civil war I'm willing to bet. Loghain didn't want this to happen. So he tasked Jowan -- whom he met in Denerim, as Jowan states -- to go to Redcliffe to teach Connor about magic and administer the poison to Eamon, but this poison was only supposed to render Eamon comatose.

Nothing more. If Eamon's condition worsened to the point of death, Berwick would've reported to someone in Loghain's cadre saying such, and Loghain would send the antidote.

Now, of course, Connor went to the Desire Demon pleading for Eamon to be saved. He didn't know Eamon wouldn't have died -- or that it was an unlikely scenario, anyway -- and so that's why he did so. And the demon did keep Eamon alive. She just kept his state of being from worsening.

Also, I very much doubt Eamon is the leader of the largest surviving army. That'd technically fall to either Loghain himself -- commanding the Teyrnir of Gwaren, as opposed to Eamon's Arling -- or Rendon Howe -- who by the time of the Battle at Ostagar, has claimed Highever and Denerim along with his already claimed Arling of Amaranthine.

As for the Wardens? Again, let's look at it from his perspective.

Here is a man who, for all his time at Ostagar, has not been told just how the Wardens know it's a Blight, other then vague comments where they say they "can feel it". While we the players know for a fact the Wardens are necessary, let's not forget that Loghain doesn't. We know the intricacies of the Joining. He doesn't. Not during Ostagar, anyway.

Duncan failed to tell Cailan or Loghain about these Warden secrets, which may have convinced Loghain that they're truly necessary. Had he known that they were linked to the Darkspawn hive-mind and could actually sense the Archdemon -- specifically, not those vague comments Alistair says Duncan told them -- then he would've realized "These guys are necessary."

All he had to go on were vague notions that they're necessary and tales about their prowess in battle. For all he knew, they were no different then the regular soldier, with only one thing distinguishing the Wardens from a soldier: they just fight Darkspawn all the time. 

That could've been the extent of it as far as he knew.

Now, I'll say for the record that I personally find the army to bear the weight of the blame, but the Wardens aren't without blame either. I give the army 60% of the blame, at most. If not 60%, I often split it evenly, as Duncan's actions prior to Ostagar show that he should've been pressed by the army as to the validity of the claims to the nature of the Blight -- his reason for going to Orzammar is to find evidence of the Archdemon.

But then again, the Wardens are supposed to do whatever it takes to defeat the Blights. One would think this would include lying about finding evidence on the Archdemon to make people believe it's a Blight and telling the heads of state and generals about Warden secrets.

But let's also examine Cailan. Here is a child trapped in a man's body who is fascinated with war so much he wants glory for himself. He finds strategy sessions boring, wants to be the one to kill the Archdemon with his father's blade, and goes on and on about glory.

During the battle, he ruins the plan Loghain put forth -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy -- during the session. Instead of having the men in the back -- maybe a couple of rows -- firing constant volleys of arrows into the Darkspawn ranks, he has them fire only one volley. 

Instead of keeping the Mabari hounds alongside his soldiers, he sends them out as little more then fodder troops where they kill, at most, 1-2 Darkspawn each before dying.

Instead of having the majority of his forces holding the line with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, he orders all of his troops to charge out into the open, where they're then besieged by the Darkspawn on all sides.

While it's extremely unlikely that Ostagar could've been won using what forces they had there, Cailan's idiocy doomed them from the start.

And during the strategy session, the Wardens failed to speak up about their necessity or offering any real insight into how the battle could play out. 

Now, let's jump to what happens in the Tower of Ishal.

We the players are tasked with the duty of lighting the signal fire so that Loghain's men will know when to charge. The opportune moment for such a thing was when all the Darkspawn were in the valley, so that Loghain's men could corral the Darkspawn and begin to take them down. I refer you to KnightofPhoenix's blog images on the subject of Ostagar.



Now, we the players -- as well as Alistair, the Warden, the Mabari, a Mage, and a Soldier in the Tower -- know that the signal was delayed due to the Darkspawn invading the Tower. I'll tackle how this is Bioware's fault on being contradictory in their writing later.

As Alistair himself notes, the signal was surely delayed too much due to the Darkspawn.

Loghain however, did not know the Darkspawn had delayed the signal fire. Because of how late it comes -- and how fractured the army is now -- he believes that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so as to weaken Ferelden's national stability -- what with the King dying, and in his mind them hoping he'd lead his men to death too.

Had he charged, this is what would've happened.



Because if that happened, Ferelden would've had no choice but to rely on Orlesian assistance during the Blight, which would be a repeat of what they've done in Blights past.

In his mind, the Wardens are helping the Orlesians, as they've done in the past. In Blights past, the Orlesians used the Blights as a reason for "aiding" nations too weakened by the Darkspawn to stand on their own, and then after the Blight was ended they made it a point to never leave.

For more insight on that, see the history of Nevarra, the Free Marches, and IIRC the Anderfels.

As such, he truly believed the delay of the signal fire was done on purpose by the Wardens to weaken Ferelden and give Orlais the moment to "aid" the nation. Orlais itself has used the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage by helping further their expansionist policies, of which Empress Celene I was reputed to be an expansionist herself in Origins -- changed to being a peaceloving monarch in DAII.

So let's recap, shall we?

1) He knows little about why the Order is necessary.
2) Cailan believed that the presence of the Wardens was enough to win the battle. In truth, it wasn't, and Ostagar using Loghain's strategy -- or even what forces they did have there -- was unwinnable. This isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won had more forces been present and the place better fortified. I'm certain Ostagar could've been won, had things been different.
3) The Wardens did not speak up on anything that could help fight the Darkspawn.
4) Cailan ruined the battle plan.
5) The signal fire was delayed to the point of being too late -- and not accurate, as Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds. For what reason, Loghain didn't know. But based on history, he had strong inclinations as to why it was so. He was wrong, but he didn't know the real reason.
6) Orlais has a history of using the Wardens and the Blights as grounds to further their expansionist policies, something Loghain brings up at the first Landsmeet.

From all of this alone, his opinions of the Wardens is not very high. He can only view them as Orlesian tools, because that's all the evidence has shown itself to be for him. He didn't have all the facts, but from what he did know it was not painted very well in the Wardens' favor.

Let's not forget the rebellion that happened in centuries past by Sophia Dryden -- a justified rebellion, but the truth was never publicly known. Let's also not forget that what happens in The Calling further adds fuel to the fires of why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens.

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Now, I said I'd tackle the whole Tower of Ishal failure on Bioware's part. This stems from them failing to properly keep their own character -- Loghain -- consistent with how he's portrayed.

He became Teyrn of Gwaren in 9:11 Dragon, so he's been the ruling lord of that area for 19 years. His own codex states that he's a man who wishes to know where his borders end and how best to defend them.

And yet Bioware made it a point to have Loghain completely in the dark about Ostagar's structure. This is a blatant failure of their writing, as David Gaider -- the man who wrote Loghain, IIRC -- failed to keep Loghain consistent.

Then, when we find out about the Tower's lower levels, we find that Loghain's first action was to... explore them? On the eve of a major battle? This is a failure from a military strategy point of view as well as writing, because while you should know the layout of a fortress Loghain should've already known all of this in the 19 years he was Teyrn of Gwaren and general of Ferelden, the man whose strategies kicked the Orlesians out of the nation.

But because he didn't know, we're supposed to be able to believe that the more sensible course of action when Darkspawn are at your heels in the Wilds is to explore these lower caverns? Seriously? NO. It's to immediately seal them up, preferably in such a way that they're unusable by the Darkspawn as it's pretty evident that these caverns will lead to the Wilds -- indeed, they lead into the very valley Cailan was in.

And before anyone goes "So doesn't this mean he deliberately left the Tower open to invasion and used the Darkspawn to justify leaving Cailan", no it doesn't. Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the Tower being invaded by Darkspawn nor did he plan such a thing. It was an unexpected thing.

The failure here being that the people that wrote the Ostagar scenario -- not the Cailan moment, but the Tower of Ishal thing and Loghain's ignorance on the entire fortress -- is a critical failure in military warfare knowledge and consistent writing of Loghain Mac Tir. 

As such, the blame falls on Bioware.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 décembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[HiroVoid]

Yeah. A lot of the confusion comes from the obvious camera angles and other stuff that obviously points at Loghain intending to purposely leave Cailan to die which was planned in the ORIGINAL script. This was when Loghain was aware that Cailan was going to leave Anora to marry Celene which isn't the case in DA:O as was released. At that point, you have to ask why he would kill him at that point. He has no reason to believe Cailan's going to sell out Ferelden to Orlais now. He's not power hungry as any dialogue you have with him when he's in your party should reveal. I feel like these are a lot of the same people who would insist Loghain planning on Uldred nearly destroying the circle of magi tower.