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[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You wanted him to fight an entire horde that decimated the forces at Ostagar -- and would've completely destroyed the entire army there had he charged -- on open plains with only his Teyrnir's forces and one Bann's forces to help him?

<HUGE SNIP OF STUFF>

The failure here being that the people that wrote the Ostagar scenario -- not the Cailan moment, but the Tower of Ishal thing and Loghain's ignorance on the entire fortress -- is a critical failure in military warfare knowledge and consistent writing of Loghain Mac Tir. 

As such, the blame falls on Bioware.

Wow... that was epic o_o.

Most of this stuff can be considered metagame knowledge. As such it really has no bearing on how I roleplay my character, which I think is true for most of the arguments about Loghain. Your character only knows what she experienced or was told later on. I feel that any decisions made regarding Loghain should be based on that if you're going to be roleplaying your character.

That said, I found all of that very interesting and it does change my outlook a bit, in the same vein as reading The Stolen Throne changed my opinions about Loghain after having initially played DAO. However, that does not change any actions my character might take.

And damn... every time I read one of these things I'm sorely tempted to spare him just once so I can talk to him. But... Alistair... That's a hard decision to make after going through 50 hours of playtime.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 30 décembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[Plaintiff]

alex90c wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm sure I'll take great pleasure in decapitating anyone who is even slightly like Loghain.

You're such a pleasant person.

I'm a damn sight more pleasant than Loghain. At least I didn't sell people into slavery, declare war on my own countrymen, or accuse people of crimes I knew they had not committed, and subsequently place bounties on their head.

Loghain might be a great character, but he is a terrible person. The sheer scale of his crimes is beyond measure. He's up to his eyeballs in the blood of his own people, there is no redemption. A clean execution is better than he deserves.

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

... or accuse people of crimes I knew they had not committed, and subsequently place bounties on their head.

I think this is what gets me the most, really.

[Vilegrim]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Shenrai wrote...

So when I have the choice of saving him or killing him... I actually think about it.

So what is your reason for sparing him? I mean I see lots of reasons for executing him but none for sparing him, seriously somebody please tell me what it is they believe made Loghain such a great villian because I am honestly drawing a blank here.

Because his actions made sense, if you believe as he did that the Blight isn't real, and you know, as he did, that the chivalry obssesed niave king had invited Orlesian troops in to help fight said Blight, and you had reason to hate the Orlesians (as again he did) and did not trust them to leave, then his actions while extreme make internal sense.   He believed he acted in the best interests of the kingdom, to save it from reoccupation by a cruel empire.   He is a cruel and vicious pragmatist, since that is a perfectly legitimate way to play the WC , having them be closer to each other than either is to Alistair in ways of looking at the world, and knowing that Loghian is a decent general (as opposed to Alistiar who is untested at best) choosing Loghian over Alistair makes pragamtic sense (For a really nasty pragmatist)

Modifié par Vilegrim, 30 décembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Eilaras]

 Loghain and the Arishok alone are Basalit-an. The more characters like that in the next game, the better. 

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]it was not an Orlesian plot[/quote]

That's easy to say when you know for certain. It's harder to be so sure when history says Orlais has used the Blights as a pretense for conquering other nations, even going so far as to use the Wardens to their advantage.


[quote]the Grey Wardens really were important[/quote]

Also easy to say when you know why they're so important. If all you have to go off of are their "feelings" and grandiose tales on how they've been present in every Blight -- which says nothing of their necessity, only their presence -- then you're not going to really know if they're truly needed to defeat a Blight.

Never mind how historical events pointed to the Wardens helping Orlais throughout the centuries.
[/quote]

You are going to have to show me your source for that as I can find nothing on the matter of Orlais using the blight to as a pretense to conquer nations nor can I see anything that suggests that the Wardens have assisted Orlais in their conquest, In fact the only thing I can recall is that the Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]Could have fooled me, is Lothering not a part of Ferelden? Or just a part of it that isnt worth keeping safe?[/quote]

You wanted him to fight an entire horde that decimated the forces at Ostagar -- and would've completely destroyed the entire army there had he charged -- on open plains with only his Teyrnir's forces and one Bann's forces to help him?

I'm sorry, but that is so militarily unsound it's not even funny.
[/quote]

I never suggested that, if he had never pulled out at Ostagar then perhaps they could have stopped the Blight from spreading even reaching Lothering. You keep saying that the battle at Ostagar was unwinnable but everything I see in the game seems to suggest that it was Loghain's betrayal that caused their defeat. The only thing that suggests it wasnt is Loghain's own testimony (who also claims that part of the reason the battle was lost is because the Grey Wardens betrayed them) and a half a dozen fan theory based on little more than speculation.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]I fail to see what poisoning Eamon has to do with keeping the country safe, in fact it nearly destroyed Redcliffe. [/quote]Eamon would've been too blinded by his familial relation to Cailan to understand how Ostagar truly was unwinnable and that Cailan did cause his own death. Eamon would've rallied the nobility to fight Loghain because he would've believed him a simple king-killer, out for power.

[/quote]

So Eamon would have been to emotionally blinded by the death of Cailan to veiw Loghain's actions rationally yet he will still back a Warden who actively MURDERS his son?

What do you want to call this one? More evidence of the ineptitude of Dragon Age's writers? Or a load of rubbish?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]I also fail to see what abandoning half the army and the king to die at Ostagar has to do with keeping the country safe. You claim it was because the Darkspawn threat was too great and he did it to save the other half of the army yet you also claim that Loghain diddnt see it as a major threat, the 2 statements contradict each other my dear[/quote]

No they don't.

Loghain saw the Darkspawn as being incredibly numerous and ackowledged that the Darkspawn incursion was a threat.

[/quote]

Yet he did nothing about it, every move he made was either made to thwart some imaginary Orlesian plot or simply show everyone how much of a dick he was to fulfill the role of antagonist.

Tell me again how selling Elves to Tevinter was somehow in the best interests of the safety of Ferelden?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]If Loghain saw the Darkspawn horde as such a threat that he feels the need to withdraw half the army in order to keep it from being destroyed then perhaps it is a big enough threat to actually take seriously and do something about rather than ignore it and focus on an imaginary threat from Orlais.[/quote]

I suppose him trying to rally the Landsmeet to unify under his leadership to deal with the Darkspawn immediately after Ostagar was really just him using code words, where "Darkspawn" truly means "Orlesians".
[/quote]

Pretty sure he used the world "Orlesian" far more than the word "Darkspawn" during the Landsmeet.


As for the rest of your post I will not address it as it is hardly evidence of how Cailan cocked up the battle and forced Loghain to retreat (As I dont believe Loghain ever mentioned how Cailan refused to stick to the plan) but more evidence that shows that the Dragon Age team also suck as much at depicting realistic medieval battles as they do in creating believable antagonists, if we are going to take that as evidence why dont we also comment on the lack of pikes and horses?

[Althix]

Gandalf there was no sign of Archdemon at Ostagar, so even Cailan would won that battle, he could lose a war, because of casualties. And you can't trust Orlesians, wound of their defeat in Ferelden was still fresh.

Also - no offence - but i saw you stated that Loghain betrayed you, i don't think that is correct, and perhaps it's also have it's impact of your judgement.

[TEWR]

[quote]nightscrawl wrote...

Most of this stuff can be considered metagame knowledge.[/quote]

Not really. Most of it's in the form of codexes. Some of it's metagame knowledge, but not all or even most of it. Ostagar being unwinnable was something Xanthos Aeducan picked up when he saw the strength of the Darkspawn engagement and how the soldiers at Ostagar were acting.

[quote]Gandalf the Fabulous wrote...

You are going to have to show me your source for that as I can find nothing on the matter of Orlais using the blight to as a pretense to conquer nations nor can I see anything that suggests that the Wardens have assisted Orlais in their conquest, In fact the only thing I can recall is that the Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral.[/quote]

History of the Free Marches, Nevarra, and IIRC the Anderfels.

As for Warden neutrality, they only signed off on that during the Third Blight when nations were refusing to help one another and they had to be the mediators.

That didn't stop Orlais from using Blights to their expansionist advantage, and the Wardens didn't care who was ruling so long as they weren't targeted.

[quote]You keep saying that the battle at Ostagar was unwinnable but everything I see in the game seems to suggest that it was Loghain's betrayal that caused their defeat[/quote]

Then you weren't paying attention. You can see how far back the Darkspawn horde goes in that screenshot I posted on the previous page.

David Gaider himself said that the Darkspawn were far more numerous then anyone had expected and that if Loghain felt the battle could've been won, he would've charged.

[quote]The only thing that suggests it wasnt is Loghain's own testimony (who also claims that part of the reason the battle was lost is because the Grey Wardens betrayed them) and a half a dozen fan theory based on little more than speculation.[/quote]

Read my post on the previous page and you'll understand just why the man felt the Grey Wardens helped Cailan create his own demise.

[quote]Pretty sure he used the world "Orlesian" far more than the word "Darkspawn" during the Landsmeet.[/quote]

*ahem*

[quote]TEWR wrote...

I suppose him trying to rally the Landsmeet to unify under his leadership to deal with the Darkspawn immediately after Ostagar was really just him using code words, where "Darkspawn" truly means "Orlesians".[/quote]

[quote]as it is hardly evidence of how Cailan cocked up the battle[/quote]

Except that it is, because he found tactics and strategy to be boring and was solely focused on glory.

[quote]As I dont believe Loghain ever mentioned how Cailan refused to stick to the plan[/quote]

Explicitly no, but it's incredibly obvious when you see how Cailan ruined the Hammer&Anvil strategy by having his men charge out into the open as opposed to using the walls of Ostagar to protect their left and right flanks.

[quote]ut more evidence that shows that the Dragon Age team also suck as much at depicting realistic medieval battles[/quote]

Not contesting this. They know jack **** about warfare.

[quote] we are going to take that as evidence why dont we also comment on the lack of pikes and horses?[/quote]

Ferelden has horses, actually. The HN can remark upon them and there are some cavalry units in Ferelden's army IIRC.

But they don't have many horses.

[quote]Tell me again how selling Elves to Tevinter was somehow in the best interests of the safety of Ferelden?[/quote]

Ignoring how from a military standpoint it was unable to be saved during the Blight -- barring a miracle, which is the Warden -- there's the following:

Economically, it was his only option. Had the Circle been allied with him, he could've made use of the Lucrosians and the Formari to raise money for Ferelden's coffers.

But once Wynne opened her fat yap about Ostagar, the Circle refused to support Loghain.

During times of war -- especially civil war -- the treasury will often empty out faster. So it's crucial for Loghain to trade with other nations -- Orzammar and the Free Marches being the two he would interact with.

But he can't do that as Ferelden's only real source of earning goods would be the Circle. With them not on his side, he's left with slavery.

The idea being, I think, that he was forced to sell some people into slavery so that he could save the rest of the nation. He had to sell a few Elves into slavery in order to save the rest of the nation -- other Elves included, as there are other Alienages besides Denerim's.

Additionally, by this time Howe's worked his way into manipulating Loghain's mind. Howe shows absolutely no compassion for the Elves, citing them as "animals needing to be put down". He's a complete monster who does things For the Evulz. So I can't say it's too far-fetched to assume it was originally Howe's idea.

So it's equal parts "last resort" and "Howe's idea". Is it still bad? Of course. Does he bear blame for authorizing it? Yes, and he will say a few times that he's done a lot of things wrong -- even if his intentions were in the right place.

But when you look at everything else, can you understand why he had to do it? For me, yes.

[quote]So Eamon would have been to emotionally blinded by the death of Cailan to veiw Loghain's actions rationally yet he will still back a Warden who actively MURDERS his son?[/quote]

Hardly applicable. Connor was an Abomination. He's going to be upset, of course, but he's not going to hold it against the Warden because the Warden actually did do what he/she thought was best and Eamon regrettably understands that.

And he'll probably blame Loghain for what happened to Connor anyway. Had Loghain not hired Jowan to give him a poison meant to incapacitate him, Isolde wouldn't have sent the knights of Redcliffe out on some mad quest and Connor wouldn't have turned to the Desire Demon -- which was unnecessary, but Connor didn't know that.

Cailan on the other hand was a man-child and Eamon would rather believe he was murdered by Loghain in a mad grab for power then that Cailan doomed himself. Cailan was in complete control of his senses.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

declare war on my own countrymen[/quote]

He never declares war on them. He says things that antagonize them and definitely put them off, sure. But he never declares war on them. They geared up for war first and demanded he step down from the Regency, which realistically would've probably resulted in him being tried for high treason against the crown and regicide based on what people believed he did as opposed to Ostagar's truth of the matter.

Which isn't the case. He never betrayed Cailan.

Then he would've been imprisoned and stripped of his titles at best and executed at worst. Then his allies would've launched a war anyway probably.

What he does do is fight the Civil War to try and bring them to line after they've struck the first blow. After they saw fit to rather fight amongst themselves then unify -- even temporarily -- to defeat the Darkspawn and settle matters of politics later.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

accuse people of crimes I knew they had not committed, and subsequently place bounties on their head.[/quote]


But he didn't know they hadn't committed those crimes. Read my post on the previous page to understand why it seemed like the Wardens were in cahoots with Orlais in his mind.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 décembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Savber100]

The fact that we can debate over Loghain's qualities is proof of his complexity as a character. Try to argue the same about The Illusive Man post-ME3... The qualities of a character comes through the perspectives that one sees him or her. 

Modifié par Savber100, 30 décembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[Dorrieb]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He deliberately led them into a slaughter and had planned to do so well in advance.

Wrong.

You're ignoring Loghain's sinister aside toward the camera. It's about as subtle as a brick in screaming 'here is a man planning dastardly deeds'.

The rest of his behaviour is consistent with betrayal. He hides the truth. He abducts, imprisons, and tortures people who know what happened. He lies his arse off at the Landsmeet. You do know he's lying when he says 'You goaded him into that charge!' Who, me? I was busy drinking that poison blood that I found in the swamp. Duncan? I heard him specifically tell Cailan the exact opposite. Why else would Howe think that he could get away with what he did to the Couslands? Only because he was in it with Loghain from the very beginning. Cailan would not have stood for it, but with the regent on his side...

And yes, he may have had his reasons to suspect an Orlesian plot, but the fact is that he was wrong. Wrong as in not correct. As in, he was certain that it was the case when it was in fact not the case at all. And the result was that thousands of people lost their lives and homes, because Loghain didn't even once consider the possibility that he might be wrong.

[Dorrieb]

Plaintiff wrote...

Loghain might be a great character, but he is a terrible person.

This I think we can all agree on. At least the first bit.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 30 décembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[HiroVoid]

Dorrieb wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He deliberately led them into a slaughter and had planned to do so well in advance.

Wrong.

You're ignoring Loghain's sinister aside toward the camera. It's about as subtle as a brick in screaming 'here is a man planning dastardly deeds'.

I think you ignored the part where we mentioned originally this was the case because he knew about Cailan going to run off with Anora which was cut in the final game meaning this wasn't the case anymore.

[Chewin]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
Greed is the only excuse that even has a chance of lending the story any sense of credibility.

No, it isn't. I thought I made that clear already.

 I fail to see what poisoning Eamon has to do with keeping the country safe, in fact it nearly destroyed Redcliffe.

B/c Eamon was a fool. He blindly believed that the events at Ostagar were all Loghain fault (including the death of Cailan, which was his own doing), and b/c of that would have rallied the nobles against Loghain simply b/c he believed Loghain was power hungry, which wasn't the case. This would have lead to the country to even more caos than it already was.

And about Redcliffe's being nearly destoryed, well he couldn't predict the attack of the undead, but though luck.

I also fail to see what abandoning half the army and the king to die at Ostagar has to do with keeping the country safe. You claim it was because the Darkspawn threat was too great and he did it to save the other half of the army yet you also claim that Loghain diddnt see it as a major threat, the 2 statements contradict each other my dear

There are two sides on the coin.

What Loghain witnessed at Ostagar was that the darkspawn was too large of a threat for them to be able to defeat. Hence why he withdrew. But what he didn't acknowledge--or refused too in the beginning--was that it was a Blight.

What he concidered the logical option was to withdraw and reorganize the army, have the darkspawn defeated, and then focus on the prime enemy, Orlais. 

If Loghain saw the Darkspawn horde as such a threat that he feels the need to withdraw half the army in order to keep it from being destroyed then perhaps it is a big enough threat to actually take seriously and do something about rather than ignore it and focus on an imaginary threat from Orlais.

Imaginery? A lot of Orlesian nobles had been ploting to re-conquer Ferelden, which rouse tension in the country. This was against Empress Celene's wishes, hence why she strived for peace with Cailan.

And even if not for that, it's completely understandable for Loghain to be paranoid for another attack from Orlais, since it wasn't that long ago Ferelden was part of Orlais.

[Dorrieb]

HiroVoid wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He deliberately led them into a slaughter and had planned to do so well in advance.

Wrong.

You're ignoring Loghain's sinister aside toward the camera. It's about as subtle as a brick in screaming 'here is a man planning dastardly deeds'.

I think you ignored the part where we mentioned originally this was the case because he knew about Cailan going to run off with Anora which was cut in the final game meaning this wasn't the case anymore.

And yet there it is. Not cut out of the game or anything.

[HiroVoid]

Dorrieb wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He deliberately led them into a slaughter and had planned to do so well in advance.

Wrong.

You're ignoring Loghain's sinister aside toward the camera. It's about as subtle as a brick in screaming 'here is a man planning dastardly deeds'.

I think you ignored the part where we mentioned originally this was the case because he knew about Cailan going to run off with Anora which was cut in the final game meaning this wasn't the case anymore.

And yet there it is. Not cut out of the game or anything.

I was talking about the part where Loghain knew about Cailan and Empress Celene which was his entire motivation for leaving Cailian under that situation.

[Dorrieb]

Scenes from Loghain's adventures as a Grey Warden.

YOU:            I sense massive darkspawn, heading toward Southtown!
LOGHAIN:   Nonsense. My tactical military genius tells me they'll be heading toward Northtown.
YOU:            Gee, Logs, I know you're the greatest general ever and all, but I have a really strong magic  blood                                       vision thingie, and they're definitely heading to Southtown.
LOGHAIN:   Very well, lead on. (You turn your back) THUNNK!! Oh don't look so shocked everyone, it was for the best.                       Now let's go save those people in Northtown.

And that's how everyone in Southtown got eaten.

-----------------------------------

YOU:            Loghain, what's wrong?
LOGHAIN:   Are you blind? Leliana! She is an Orlesian spy!
YOU:            No she's not.
LELIANA:    Yes I am.
YOU:            Okay, yes she is, but she isn't being one at the moment. Do you think you could lend a hand? We're in                      the middle of a battle here.
LOGHAIN:   Who cares about the battle! Orlesian! Waaargh!
LELIANA:    Ow! Stop hitting me, you maniac! Zut alors!

Modifié par Dorrieb, 30 décembre 2012 - 06:39 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

accuse people of crimes I knew they had not committed, and subsequently place bounties on their head.

But he didn't know they hadn't committed those crimes. Read my post on the previous page to understand why it seemed like the Wardens were in cahoots with Orlais in his mind.

It is still a stupid conclusion to get to. Wardens had little to do with what the Orlesian army was allowed to do after the blights ended, and Duncan also tried to get Cailan to be out of the front lines. It seems more like he branded them traitors to save his own face after retreating from the death of the king, but I'm sure you wouldn't agree.

[In Exile]

Vilegrim wrote...
Because his actions made sense, if you believe as he did that the Blight isn't real, and you know, as he did, that the chivalry obssesed niave king had invited Orlesian troops in to help fight said Blight, and you had reason to hate the Orlesians (as again he did) and did not trust them to leave, then his actions while extreme make internal sense.  

No, no. His motives are understandable. His actions don't make any sense, even if you start from his own POV. Let's assume that Cailan actually goes with what he says. At Ostagar, he realizes Loghain is right, and retreats (or leaves the GWs to die, or whatever).

Well, suddenly Loghain has already been responsible for executing Teryn Cousland and poisoning Eamon. 

[Herr Uhl]

In Exile wrote...

Well, suddenly Loghain has already been responsible for executing Teryn Cousland and poisoning Eamon. 

Well, he might not have pardoned Howe for slaughtering the Couslands if there was no civil war. And we have WoG that Howe acted on his own behalf in that matter.

[Murdario]

wow, people are STILL trying to make loghain seem like some misunderstood anti-hero instead of an utterly evil semi-retarded scumbag that he was clearly portrayed as? LOL!

please stop wasting bandwith. im sure there are plenty of imprisoned serial killers in real life who you can write love letters to and subsequently marry.

[Paragon Gabriel]

Murdario wrote...

wow, people are STILL trying to make loghain seem like some misunderstood anti-hero instead of an utterly evil semi-retarded scumbag that he was clearly portrayed as? LOL!

please stop wasting bandwith. im sure there are plenty of imprisoned serial killers in real life who you can write love letters to and subsequently marry.

And there are also people who know jacksh*t about characterization and who has never even had Loghain as party member to explore them.

Go troll some other forum, since that is obviously the only thing you are good at.

[TEWR]

Dorrieb wrote...

You're ignoring Loghain's sinister aside toward the camera. It's about as subtle as a brick in screaming 'here is a man planning dastardly deeds'.

 

Sure, it's not subtle at all. But that's simple foreshadowing that ****'s gonna hit the fan in some way or another and is no longer applicable in saying "LOL Loghain's so evil he planned to kill his son-in-law well in advance!" since Loghain, as we see him in-game due to cut ideas, no longer has any reason to do so because he doesn't know of the correspondence between Cailan and Celene.

As it stands, all it happens to be is a foreshadowing remark that has no subtlety. But it has nothing to do with Loghain's actions any longer.

The rest of his behaviour is consistent with betrayal. He hides the truth. He abducts, imprisons, and tortures people who know what happened.

Howe did that, and based on his character it was mostly for his own ambitions. The son of the lord of the Dragon's Peak Bannorn would be great leverage for him to gain that piece of land. The brother of the ruling lady of the Waking Sea Bannorn would be great for him to gain that piece of land as well.

Remember, this is the man who betrayed his liege lord for his lands, imprisoned another lord for his lands, and when he dies says "Maker spit on you! I... deserved.... MOAR!!"

Rendon Howe would never be satisfied. He would've sold Ferelden to Orlais if it meant he got more power.

He lies his arse off at the Landsmeet. You do know he's lying when he says 'You goaded him into that charge!' Who, me? I was busy drinking that poison blood that I found in the swamp. Duncan? I heard him specifically tell Cailan the exact opposite.

Duncan didn't say anything to try and get Cailan to stay out of the battle.

The Wardens as a whole said nothing to get Cailan to stay out of the battle.

By not saying anything to convince him to stay out of the field, they were -- in Loghain's mind -- trying to get him to be out there. Cailan believed, with all of his foolish person, that the Wardens would be enough to turn the tide of battle -- strategy and consequence be damned.

Why else would Howe think that he could get away with what he did to the Couslands? Only because he was in it with Loghain from the very beginning. Cailan would not have stood for it, but with the regent on his side...

Except David Gaider has said Howe did that on his own, of his own volition, with no backing from Loghain. Loghain did not have any connection to Howe prior to Ostagar. Loghain is innocent of the Cousland's murder at Howe's hands and only allied with Howe for two reasons:

1) Howe's supposed political mind -- which I find to be a crock, though I have conjectured in the past that Howe manipulated Loghain into believing Anora would be too grief-stricken from Cailan's death to help or too conflicted on who to believe.

2) Howe is in control of the greater part of the Coastlands. Highever, Amaranthine, and Denerim are all in his control after Ostagar. From a military standpoint, if Loghain has to get in bed with a treacherous snake like Howe to do what he needs to do, then he'll do it. It's not wise to antagonize a man who has that much power at his disposal.

Up until the Blight was dealt with. I imagine that Anora and Loghain would've brought Howe to answer for his crimes. At the very least they would've granted Highever and Denerim to some other people, because that's what the ruling lords of this type of government would do if one land's nobility was destroyed entirely. They'd place a new name in control of those lands.

And it's astonishing how people are willing to say "Loghain caused the Civil War" when the friggin' Bannorn were the first to make accusations and the first to gear up for civil war, when they weren't at Ostagar. God, the hypocrisy...

In Exile wrote...

poisoning Eamon

Happened after Ostagar, since we hear in the HN and Mage origins that Loghain is with the king at Ostagar and Jowan will say he met Loghain in Denerim.

But even if Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar -- when in-game events and dialogue indicate otherwise, despite Donall's "Eamon was sick before Cailan's death* -- Loghain had the antidote.

*Could really have been anything from allergies to a natural sickness that only made it easier for the poison to take effect, and is not necessarily indicative of Eamon having been poisoned at that point in time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 décembre 2012 - 12:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Exile wrote...

poisoning Eamon

Happened after Ostagar, since we hear in the HN and Mage origins that Loghain is with the king at Ostagar and Jowan will say he met Loghain in Denerim.

But even if Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar -- when in-game events and dialogue indicate otherwise, despite Donall's "Eamon was sick before Cailan's death* -- Loghain had the antidote.

*Could really have been anything from allergies to a natural sickness that only made it easier for the poison to take effect, and is not necessarily indicative of Eamon having been poisoned at that point in time.

Eamon was involved in the seemingly scrapped Celene plot. Might have something to do with it.