597 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
Cailan did want to wait for reinforcements. From Orlais. Loghain did not.

Duncan wanted to wait for reinforcements from Orlais too. He tells you this. You ask him, "What would you have him do then?" Duncan says, "Wait for the Grey Wardens from Orlais" or something similar. Cailan refused his uncle's troops which were much closer than the Orlesians, telling me that Cailan really wasn't interested in reinforcements at all and just wanted to get on with it already. Cailan telling Loghain that he wanted to wait for the Orlesians was really just pushing his buttons.

[Plaintiff]

Monica21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Cailan did want to wait for reinforcements. From Orlais. Loghain did not.

Duncan wanted to wait for reinforcements from Orlais too. He tells you this. You ask him, "What would you have him do then?" Duncan says, "Wait for the Grey Wardens from Orlais" or something similar. Cailan refused his uncle's troops which were much closer than the Orlesians, telling me that Cailan really wasn't interested in reinforcements at all and just wanted to get on with it already. Cailan telling Loghain that he wanted to wait for the Orlesians was really just pushing his buttons.

Cailan was the one who took initiative to invite non-Warden Orlesian troops.

Even if Cailan was only trying to get a rise out of Loghain, so what? What Cailan may or may not have really wanted is unkowable and now irrelevent. The simple fact of the matter is that he offered a sensible suggestion, which Loghain refused.

Cailan never refused Eamon's help. He jokes that Eamon just wants to share in the glory, but he does not at any point turn down the offer of reinforcements.

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
Cailan was the one who took initiative to invite non-Warden Orlesian troops.

Even if Cailan was only trying to get a rise out of Loghain, so what? What Cailan may or may not have really wanted is unkowable and now irrelevent. The simple fact of the matter is that he offered a sensible suggestion, which Loghain refused.

Cailan never refused Eamon's help. He jokes that Eamon just wants to share in the glory, but he does not at any point turn down the offer of reinforcements.

Duncan reminded Cailan that his uncle's forces could be there soon. Cailan laughed. Cailan had already refused. Any other interpretation is, quite frankly, just wrong.

Orlesian troops coming from the Orlesian border (because we know they never crossed the border, don't we?) is certainly not sensible when Redcliffe troops are closer.

[Plaintiff]

Monica21 wrote...
Duncan reminded Cailan that his uncle's forces could be there soon. Cailan laughed.

Which means nothing at all, except that Cailan is in a good mood. Or pretending to be in a good mood for the sake of morale.

Cailan had already refused.

Obviously he had not, if Eamon's troops were mobilising. If Cailan had already turned down his offer of help, then they wouldn't be coming.

Any other interpretation is, quite frankly, just wrong.

You are making things up. Provide legitimate proof or admit that your argument is unfounded nonsense.

Orlesian troops coming from the Orlesian border (because we know they never crossed the border, don't we?) is certainly not sensible when Redcliffe troops are closer.

Cailan never said that he was unwilling to wait for Eamon. He invited the Orlesians himself, so is clearly open to the notion of waiting for reinforcements generally, regardless of whether they come from Redcliffe or elsewhere.

[The Hierophant]

Actually Cailan didn't care for Eamon's reinforcements as he claimed that his forces won the previous battles, and that the next wouldn't be any different.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 01 janvier 2013 - 03:27 .

[Monica21]

Plaintiff wrote...
<some stuff>

This really isn't that difficult. All it requires is some sense. Why would Duncan remind Cailan that Eamon's troops were available unless they'd already discussed it? Reminding means it's come up at least once and Cailan has either refused Eamon or simply declined to ask for his aid. Really not that hard.

[eye basher]

Stupidity is a disease and loghain had plenty of it and the only cure for stupidity is dead.

[TEWR]

Obviously he had not, if Eamon's troops were mobilising. If Cailan had already turned down his offer of help, then they wouldn't be coming.

Cailan did, if you think about it.

Eamon's closer to Ostagar then two groups: the Orlesians and the Couslands. The Couslands received a summons and their troops were mobilized and made it to Ostagar before the Warden did.

Eamon could've been there already. He's closer, his forces are smaller then the Couslands, and yet he has to remind Cailan of all of this. He has to remind his nephew of how close he is. Which indicates that Cailan refused Eamon being there in the past.

Given how the two of them had a falling out -- such that they haven't spoken in a year -- over Anora, it seems evident that Cailan didn't really want to see his uncle again because it might just remind him of the whole issue.

Or the issue would be brought up again.

Actually Cailan didn't care for Eamon's reinforcements as he claimed that his forces won the previous battles, and that the next wouldn't be any different.

Plus this.

[TEWR]

[quote]Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Oh this is just rediculous, now we are using your own character's testimony (which you made up with metagame knowledge and explained as "a vibe from the soldiers") as evidence that Ostagar was unwinnable?[/quote]

Strawman. A poor one at that. And my patience is being tested a bit. If you're going to reply to my posts, kindly do so by addressing what I say and not what you'd like to believe I'm saying.

NO, I am not using my character's beliefs as evidence of Ostagar being unwinnable. I'm using the damn facts regarding the situation that my character can plainly see as knowledge.

NO, I am not using "a vibe from the soldiers" as justification. That's your own percepetion of my words, twisted like a root from a tree.

I said "how the soldiers were acting". Not their mindsets, but their actions. Loghain's been Teyrn for 19 years and is described as wanting to know where his nation's borders end and how best to defend them, yet only bothers to look at Ostagar's layout just now?

That is not only a contradiction of his character -- and thus a failing on Bioware's part -- but indicates to me that they don't know a damn thing about their fortress' pros and cons.

I can hear about how there are Darkspawn 20 feet tall -- Ogres, which have historically been noted -- which tells my Dwarven Warden that they have what essentially amounts to living siege engines, just like the Dwarves have Golems.

I can see how fortified they bothered to make the fortress, which tells me and my character that... well... they didn't fortify the fortress enough.

I can see just how far the horde stretches in-game. I don't need Word of God to tell me they're far more numerous then was anticipated, because it's so goddamn easy to see. The WoG only reinforces it.



[quote]
Again SHOW me your source dont just tell me about it, I still see nothing.[/quote]

I did. I showed you my sources by way of telling you where I got that information from.

Here. During the Second blight -- which occurred not long after the Divine Age was formed -- the Anderfels were abandoned by the Imperium. The Orlesians and the Wardens swooped in and helped save them and for many decades the Anderfels was ruled by the Orlesians.

It wasn't until 20 years after Drakon's death that they declared their independence by force.

The History of Kirkwall, part 3 codex shows us that the Orlesians will use any excuse to conquer new territories. They used the Qunari regime installed there 2 centuries prior to the Dragon Age as grounds to conquer the city, under guise of "liberation".

Kirkwall had to rebel to kick them out and regain their independence.

The Grey Wardens converted to the Chantry's beliefs and helped spread the faith. When one reviews history, one finds out that Drakon was the one that built the Grand Cathedral and proclaimed that he would see the Chantry's faith spread to the corners of the Orlesian empire. And he was noted as an expansionistic person -- something that Celene was also described as talking about, though Bioware's been wishy-washy on portraying her as expansionistic or peace-loving.

Drakon was also noted as wanting to expand his borders into the Free Marches, but the pressure from the Dales was interfering with that goal.

From the Towers Age description:

3:25 Towers: The armies of Orlais and the Tevinter Imperium meet in Hunter Fell and join the Grey Wardens in the last battle of the Third Blight. Toth is destroyed, and the darkspawn are slaughtered in one of the bloodiest battles in history. The darkspawn carcasses are piled into mounds as high as 100 feet and then burned. The people of the Free Marches will not soon forget the image of the burning darkspawn. Their goodwill is quickly crushed by the victorious armies as they decide to occupy the territories liberated from the darkspawn. Orlais takes Nevarra, while Tevinter takes Hunter Fell. These holdings don't last long, with Hunter Fell breaking away from Tevinter in 3:49 Towers and Nevarra achieving independence in 3:65 Towers.




[quote]


What you mean this one[/quote]

No.

This one and this one

KoP's images were created to illustrate what would've happened had Loghain's men charged into that horde, based on what you can see in-game from the bridge. And hear about from people who say the scouts report more and more numbers with each sighting.


[quote]It was a long post so just point it out for me, all I can see is that you think it was the Warden's fault for not being as forthcomming with information about how they knew it was a blight as they should have been. I hardly see how that can be blamed for the outcome of the battle.[/quote]

You should read the post, otherwise this discussion will go nowhere because you won't actually be addressing my points. You'll only be addressing what you think are my points.

I'm looking at it from Loghain's perspective and I even said in that post -- or I thought I did, but if I didn't I am now -- that I personally ascribe more fault to the army for not pressing the Wardens for information then I do to the Wardens for not being forthcoming. 

How much blame other people ascribe to the two groups varies, but it is indeed true to say both parties bear their own blame.


[quote]

I already told you I am not going to debate these points as you are reading far too much into Bioware's inability to depict realistic medieval warfare, if Cailan's actions were truely not a part of Loghain's battle plan then dont you think he would have brought it up in his defense at the landsmeet?[/quote]

What he'll say if you immediately confront him on Ostagar during the debate portion of the Landsmeet:

You goaded him into making that charge! He believed the tales! He believed your men would turn the tide of battle alone, strategy and consequence be hanged!

Bolded mine.

Jives well with what we see Cailan do. He charges. Out into the open.


[quote]

Yet the only reason Loghain gives in game for doing it is "The Alienage sucks and I suppose living as a Tevinter slave cant be worse than living in an Alienage right?". Besides I find it quite hard to believe that Ferelden's only source of income is the Mages tower and slavery, source?[/quote]

During a war, that's their only source of income. Ferelden's not really advanced culturally to warrant much income coming in without using external resources.

Orlais has a university. Kirkwall is a trading port city that sees a lot of... well... trading. Tevinter has its arcane knowledge. The Dwarves have their skill at the forges, Golems, lyrium, runecrafting, and enchanting goods.

Ferelden only has, prior to the Blight, the Circle to use for garnering coin. Had the Ashes been known about prior to the Blight -- location and everything -- they could've taken coin from believers on pilgrimages.

Ferelden's not really able to churn out much goods worth trading. At least, not fast enough that they could profit off of it. 

The Mages and the Formari on the other hand have an entire fraternity dedicated to raising coin. The Lucrosians.

[quote]
Yet you also claim that Loghain was only doing what he thought was best as well, so why would Eamon hold a grudge against Loghain for abandonning his nephew in an unwinnable battle and not the Warden for actively MURDERING his only son even when there is still a way to save him without sacrficing anything?[/quote]

Because Eamon didn't know about that better option? Because doing that better option still would've run the risk of Abomination Connor rising up again and trying to take back control of the village?

That it doesn't is just by luck -- and Bioware failing to really give it any weight -- but is not a certainty one could realistically expect to happen.



[quote]

So what you are suggesting is dispite how suspicious everything looks the nobility should have put all this aside and blindly followed him under the assumption that "Loghain knows best (even when he is clearly wrong about everything)"? You are suggesting that the Nobles should do for Loghain what Loghain clearly couldnt do for the Wardens? Hypocracy anyone?[/quote]

I'm saying that they should put it aside temporarily. They can still believe things are suspicious, but should take the lesser of two evils -- in their mind, he'd be evil anyway -- so they can defeat the greater evil: the Darkspawn.

Loghain told them about Ostagar, not all of it erroneous. 

Warden: You don't believe Loghain?
Teagan: What, that he pulled his men in order to save them? That Cailan risked everything in the name of glory? Hardly. Loghain calls the Grey Wardens traitors, murderers of the King. I do not believe it. It is the action of a desperate man.

The first two parts -- the retreat and Cailan's glory-hounding persona -- are true. The next part -- the Wardens being traitors and king-killers -- is what he believes to be the case based on what he knows historically and recently.

It's wrong, of course. But Loghain didn't have enough to go off of to convince him otherwise, other then tales and vague comments about feelings the Wardens made.

Whereas the nobility know Loghain's persona. They know his mindset. They have information to go off of. But they choose to label him a liar, a king-killer, and a usurper.

When Anora, the Queen of the nation who is known to have actually been the one ruling, is okay with him being her Regent. It's not wise for him to be heavily involved in politics since he's a horrible politician -- I imagine a Larry Caul/Lilly Caul dynamic was going on for why she allowed him to remain there -- but she was okay with it.

Meaning the Bannorn went against the Queen herself. And the Banns know she's the brains behind the throne.

[quote]

Nor did he have any proof or reason to believe that they might have committed such crimes, the only reason he has to make such claims is to create a smokescreen in order to hide his own crimes.[/quote]

See above where I outline a history of the Anderfels, Nevarra, Kirkwall, etc. During Blights, Orlais used the Wardens as a pretense for conquering territories. The Wardens had even converted to the Chantry faith and helped spread its influence.

And the Chantry is intertwined with Orlais very much, which you can see from the History of Kirkwall, part 4 codex and IIRC how Drakon named the first Divine. What benefits one ultimately benefits the other.

[quote]
Yet it is still there for no reason other than to make Loghain look evil. It is the same with all of his actions, he poisons Eamon, sells elves into slavery and generally performs all manner of evil actions for no real reason other than to have him fill the role of antagonist. [/quote]

Yet all of those have reasons for why they were done. Real reasons. Whether they're morally justifiable depends on who you ask. For Loghain, what's necessary isn't always morally justifiable. But he's willing to bear the guilt and weight of those crimes.

[quote]
His actions (and the sinister aside) have no reason to be in game other than to show off how evil he is and yet you wonder why we cant take the game seriously when we are told that Loghain was only doing what he thought was right?

Contradiction does not = complexity nor does it make for good writing, Loghain was a poorly written mess and it bogles the mind why anyone with at least half a brain would consider him to be well written, but then I guess all it takes these days for a Villain to be considered "well written" is to slap on some "good intentions" no matter how irrelevant they are to the actions the villain performs.[/quote]

Well, I and a few others believe that Loghain being as deep as he appeared was an unintentional accident and that Bioware couldn't recreate a character like him if they were given an in-depth guide on how to do it.

Their original idea was for him to essentially appear as an EVIL villain -- with for some reason good intentions still -- which would've been even more absurd than the portrayal we received of him in-game. He would've done even more idiotic things when there would've been better ways to go about them.  What I'm talking about is the scrapped idea where he knew about Cailan's marriage idea to Celene, which would've been why he abandoned the king during the battle.

Which would've made him seem like a card-carrying villain who is evil. He could've easily done other things that would've rendered Cailan out of the picture -- whether they would be fatal methods or not depends on the person, but there are other things that could've been done -- while still preserving Cailan's forces.

As it stands, what we have is a far sight better and a lot more deep then what was originally planned. And there's evidence in-game for all of it. How much varies from miniscule -- but still vital -- to a crapton.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 janvier 2013 - 05:03 .

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't make sense. It means that Howe is quite literally nuts - he kills Bryce because, what, exactly? There had to have been a plan in motion. Otherwise, he has to know that every single noble in Ferelden would see his head on a pike. There's no way the nobles could condone this kind of Warlord-escque behaviour, and Howe is a coward. There's no way he'd make this ploy without more political support.

Well, he did. Loghain had no knowledge of what Howe was planning and had not approved of it, and that's because he had nothing to do with it.

Howe's not exactly a smart person, if you haven't realized.

Monica21 wrote...

Kudos to Ethereal for continuing to fight the good fight. However, I'm beginning to find it boring trying to argue in favor of a complex and subtle antagonist to people who want to be spoon fed the bad guy. That's how we got Meredith, who shot lasers out of her eyes in her death throes. C'mon people. We're better than that.

If not me, then who I ask you? 

Seriously though, I'm starting to get tired of arguing it myself. I'm finding it easier and easier for me to get infuriated by people's comments about him -- mostly because they're not actually valid comments -- or in response to me because I'm often on the receiving end of strawman arguments.

Don't know why I keep bothering, but perhaps it's because I want to create my own character who inspires as much love and hate as Loghain that I will defend him as much as I do.

Then again, I'm the same person who will defend Merrill to the death for no reason other then just my love of her character. So maybe it's just my love of Loghain that prompts me to do it, despite my mind going "No.. don't get yourself wrapped up in this again."

It's exhausting and it saddens me that we got a menagerie of clear villains in DAII. I'm okay with the occasional one or two clear villains but for bigger conflicts I'd like to see some people with depth.

Addai67 wrote...

and was poisoning Eamon in order to take him out of the equation for a showdown with Cailan over his (Cailan's) dealings with Orlais.

I never bought into DG's WoG saying that. You can find out in both the Magi Origin and the HN origin that Loghain is with Cailan at Ostagar. And that all of the battles they've won have been because of Loghain.

And you find out Loghain met Jowan in Denerim.

So how in the hell Loghain could've poisoned Eamon before Ostagar is... well... not consistent with the timeline of events.

It had to happen after. David Gaider's explanation for when Eamon was poisoned meant to incapacitate Eamon -- but not kill him, and Loghain had the antidote in the event death was creeping up on Eamon -- doesn't hold water because in-game events contradict his statement.

Plaintiff wrote...

Rightfully so. Loghain's claim is illegitimate, and if he'd left Anora to act in her capacity as a legit monarch, which the people would've likely accepted, he wouldn't be haivng this problem.

Illegitimate? Wouldn't it be a legitimate claim if Anora the Queen is okay with him being there? I give my reasons for why I view that up above in my reply to Gandalf the Grey White Fabulous. Wasn't wise for her to be okay with it, but I  think it was due to a Lilly Caul/Larry Caul father-daughter relationship, where the father's essentially going "Let me handle this!" no matter how much the daughter protests.

The Bannorn picked the worst possible time to fight over the claim. A Blight was on their doorstep.

Let's assume they followed him after Ostagar. If Loghain had continued to claim himself Regent after the Blight was dealt with, then that would've been the time to contest it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Kudos to Ethereal for continuing to fight the good fight. However, I'm beginning to find it boring trying to argue in favor of a complex and subtle antagonist to people who want to be spoon fed the bad guy. That's how we got Meredith, who shot lasers out of her eyes in her death throes. C'mon people. We're better than that.

If not me, then who I ask you?

Seriously though, I'm starting to get tired of arguing it myself. I'm finding it easier and easier for me to get infuriated by people's comments about him -- mostly because they're not actually valid comments -- or in response to me because I'm often on the receiving end of strawman arguments.

Oh, I know. I know why KoP stopped arguing it. Loghain might as well be a Scooby Doo villian to some people. Shouting at the Landsmeet, "And I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" It's very tiresome. Some of us prefer deeper characters who make us think about their motivations and their intentions, instead of villian who shoots lasers out of her eyes. Meredith was anything but subtle.

Most of these arguments against Loghain and his "evil villian" status are pretty ridiculous, simply because no one bothers to look under the surface and they're just fine believing him to be an "evil villian."

[Monica21]

krul2k wrote...

soooo basically you're all in agreement that choices in a rpg game confuse the crap out you and thus because of the choices the bioware team offer you and the limited "forwarding" of these choices into other games render most of you stupid an thus render the story full of plotholes an highlights "cheap" writing?

you know something, see for all your fancy pant writing of posts and all so elequent wording of posts, the majority of you are full of nothing but ****

yip an that has me at the n1 top spot

What are you talking about? Most of what you've written is not grammatically correct, nor does it have proper punctuation or capitalization, so your inference to others being "stupid" is somewhat ironic.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote..
Well, he did. Loghain had no knowledge of what Howe was planning and had not approved of it, and that's because he had nothing to do with it.
Howe's not exactly a smart person, if you haven't realized.

That doesn't make any sense. This is far beyond stupidity. This is unsurivable execution without any hope of reward. At all. The only possible result here is that Howe gets executed after months of painful torture, and his entire line is possibly snuffed out by the Crown.

The only way his actions make sense if he has some plan. DA:O proves over and over that he's a resourceful coward.

Otherwise this is beyond bad writing.

I never bought into DG's WoG saying that. You can find out in both the
Magi Origin and the HN origin that Loghain is with Cailan at Ostagar.
And that all of the battles they've won have been because of Loghain.

Oh, you just disagree with the writer where it's convenient to you. That certainly makes it worthwhile to discuss this point.

[lil yonce]

Monica21 wrote...

Meredith was anything but subtle.

I take exception to that in the same way you two take exception with how Loghain is written off. I enjoyed Loghain, but I also think Meredith was an appropriately nucanced character. She doesn't get enough credit in comparison.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 janvier 2013 - 05:34 .

[In Exile]

Monica21 wrote...
Some of us prefer deeper characters who make us think about their motivations and their intentions, instead of villian who shoots lasers out of her eyes. Meredith was anything but subtle.

Loghain is an idiot. He has conflicted motivations, which are relatedable - but they're as conflicted as Meredith's oppresive dictatorship because her sister lost it. The thing is, both are idiots. Especially Loghain, because he's talked up as being something other than an idiot.

Loghain's key is that he loves Ferelden, believes Cailain will betray it to Orlais, disbelieves that there is a blight, and is willing to go to any lengths to protect his homeland.

Meredith's key is that she loves, well, mundanes, believes that there is no article to the Circle because apostates will eventually be overtaken by demones like her sister, and is willing to be an oppresive dicator to prevent tragedies like those she experienced in her youth.

Most of these arguments against Loghain and his "evil villian" status are pretty ridiculous, simply because no one bothers to look under the surface and they're just fine believing him to be an "evil villian."

The same applies to Meredith. You can give her the same gloss if you're willing to ignore how disastrous and nonsensical her actions are.

[Monica21]

krul2k wrote...
its ironic because your one of the ****s im referening to :innocent:

You're writing a sentence. Sentences start with capital letters. Your first letter should be a capital "I." Also, "its" used in this sense is a contraction for "it is" and should be "It's." You're using "your" to mean "you are" which is also a contraction. "You're" in this case. Same for "I'm." A contraction for "I am" and should have an apostrophe. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that "referening" is not a word. And you forgot the period at the end of the sentence.

Seriously though, your (see what I did there?) earlier post made no sense. Good luck in life.

[lil yonce]

In Exile wrote...

The thing is, both are idiots.

They aren't idiots. They both would've got what they wanted cleanly had it not been for the Grey Warden in Loghain's situation and the Lyrium Idol in Meredith's-- two exceptional gamechangers. Loghain was named Regent and Meredith had annuled the Circle of Magi.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 janvier 2013 - 05:54 .

[Monica21]

Filament wrote...
Alternatively, some people are just so wrapped up in the Loghain fandom (sigs and all) that they can't stand people having different opinions about a supposedly deep character. When here I thought the difference of opinions was the signature of a deep character. Apparently both sides of this argument disagree with me; he is either one-dimensionally justified or one-dimensionally an idiot.

Hey, I like my sig! Anyway, it's not LoghainFandom! so much as yes, most people who are "Loghain fans" agree that there are two ways to see him. Most of us agree that he's a terrible politician and he makes quite a few mistakes. The point we agree on is that he did not commit regicide at Ostagar. The problem is the argument of "oh, but he made a sinister face" and that's impossible to defend against because it's so obviously a strawman. You're left talking about everything but the actual battle and who knew what when.

I certainly believe he did many questionable things, but I don't think any of those things deserves death, especially when a seasoned Grey Warden says, oh hey, might want to not kill him just yet. There are good arguments and bad arguments, and it's the ones making the bad arguments that are the most vehement and those are the arguments that are the most tiresome to defend, if only because they're so repetitive.

Edited to add: sigs don't mean much, or else I'd have posted in the Cullen thread more recently than two years ago.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 janvier 2013 - 05:56 .