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Can we get an enemy similiar to Loghan?


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#151
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Monica21 wrote...

krul2k wrote...
its ironic because your one of the ****s im referening to :innocent:

You're writing a sentence. Sentences start with capital letters. Your first letter should be a capital "I." Also, "its" used in this sense is a contraction for "it is" and should be "It's." You're using "your" to mean "you are" which is also a contraction. "You're" in this case. Same for "I'm." A contraction for "I am" and should have an apostrophe. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that "referening" is not a word. And you forgot the period at the end of the sentence.

Seriously though, your (see what I did there?) earlier post made no sense. Good luck in life.


you wouldnt believe the amount of luck i have in life, what your missing in that "intellectual" paragraph of tobacco spit is regional dialect an the way it transfers into how ppl type an phrase words relevant to there actually life expextances, but hey your prob some "intellectual"  teacher who "knows" everything an everyone else who doesnt punctuate or write to your standards is, well shall wee say beneath you, which is true since well you type correcting everything i say with dictionary responses an no doubt will point out everything thats wrong about this aswell, but hey :wub: <<<<<< i got a lorra luv, :innocent: <<< plus am a angel

#152
Monica21

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In Exile wrote...
Loghain's key is that he loves Ferelden, believes Cailain will betray it to Orlais,

Well, he's not wrong, is he?

disbelieves that there is a blight,

He has no reason to believe it. Even Cailan says, "This is no true Blight."

and is willing to go to any lengths to protect his homeland.

I don't see the problem with that, especially since Maric told him explicitly that no single person was more important than Ferelden.

#153
lil yonce

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Filament wrote...

And that's quite an assumption to think anyone here thought Meredith was a well-executed villain.

Have you seen my sig? :D

#154
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Youth4Ever wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The thing is, both are idiots.

They aren't idiots. They both would've got what they wanted cleanly had it not been for the Grey Warden in Loghain's situation and the Lyrium Idol's in Meredith's-- two exceptional gamechangers. Loghain was named Regent and Meredith had annuled the Circle of Magi.


Loghains a idiot if the pc turns up as the youngest cousland, the implications of the cousland turning up an both cailin and loghain ignoring it is beyond stupidity an cailin saying "wee deal with it when done here" is tantamount to a supreme ruler of stupidity beyond even my megre understanding of things

Meredith?? tbh i feel for her until as far as im concerned she is "corrupted" by the lyrium blade

#155
TEWR

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That doesn't make any sense. This is far beyond stupidity. This is unsurivable execution without any hope of reward. At all. The only possible result here is that Howe gets executed after months of painful torture, and his entire line is possibly snuffed out by the Crown. 

The only way his actions make sense if he has some plan. DA:O proves over and over that he's a resourceful coward.

otherwise this is beyond bad writing


I'm leaning towards bad writing, but I'm going to try and see it from Howe's perspective.

*puts on Complete Monster who does things For the Evulz hat*

I think the idea was that he would take advantage of the Blight to eliminate his political rivals that would stand in his way of garnering power and keeping it. The Couslands being first on his list. Hell, he has two relatives of nobles imprisoned in his dungeons -- which he could use as leverage to gain further lands -- and Berwick was supposed to report to one of Howe's men if Eamon's illness worsened to the point where death was possible.

And Howe's man would report to Howe. And while Howe would've been duty-bound to tell Loghain so Loghain could send the antidote, he'd probably just put it off until Eamon died so he could plan out how to take Redcliffe for himself.

This is a man who'd sell out Ferelden to Orlais if it meant he got more power.

He obviously wasn't expecting one of the Couslands to survive, so he has to come up with a lie about how they're traitors.

I highly doubt that would've been believed, save for a few minor lords and what few allies Howe has from Amaranthine. How much that was used in real life, I don't know.

Anyway, while people detest him there's no real proof of what he's done unless you've survived a HN origin -- in which case Loghain knows, but I doubt Howe knows Loghain knows.

After Ostagar, he's amassed so much power -- two arlings and a teyrnir -- that he can't be contested openly. Indeed, Loghain only allies with him because of his supposed political mind -- which I personally think he doesn't have much of -- and because he poses a threat from a military perspective, if antagonized or challenged.

Now, Loghain and Anora probably would've teamed up to remove him from that much power after the Blight. I'd like to think that Anora would lure him in with ideas of him becoming chancellor to the throne -- feeding his massive ego and lust for power.

Then Loghain would have some of his men ready to apprehend Howe and he'd be tried for treason, because Anora would've seen what he was.

In any kingdom like this, if a ruling family is exterminated then it falls to the crown to place new lords in the vacant seats.

People in Highever detest Howe's presence though.

I dunno. I'm not too savvy on how nobles betraying liege lords in real life played out and was justified enough to not warrant a trip to the hangman's noose.

Oh, you just disagree with the writer where it's convenient to you. That certainly makes it worthwhile to discuss this point.


Not when it's convenient. When there's enough clear in-game evidence to dispute Word of God.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:03 .


#156
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on a side note the only "boss" in da2 worthy of any mention is the Arishok, prob only boss wee met in the da games worthy of any mention

#157
In Exile

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Monica21 wrote...
Well, he's not wrong, is he?


That depends on whether you believe that a marriage between Celene and Cailan is a bad thing. Any child of their is as much a Calenhand as a whatever the hell Celene is.

He has no reason to believe it. Even Cailan says, "This is no true Blight."


It doesn't matter. He's still an idiot, even "just" if it is an unprecedent darkspawn raid that parallels those that only occur during a blight and hasn't happened ever in Ferelden, even during a Blight.

I don't see the problem with that, especially since Maric told him explicitly that no single person was more important than Ferelden.


Because they're stupid lengths. If he decides to order mass executions of all men with mustaches because he believes a mustache is the secret sign that someone is an Orlesian bard, he's not justfieid, he's a loon. His actions in DA:O are closer to that than sensible.

#158
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Youth4Ever wrote...

Filament wrote...

And that's quite an assumption to think anyone here thought Meredith was a well-executed villain.

Have you seen my sig? :D

:lol: I read your post after writing that and felt a bit silly. But I didn't notice the sig.

Needless to say I disagree (at least, I understand there was an effort to give her development that would be poignant, but it felt very, "underexposed" still). But um, yea, sorry for kinda totally dismissing your point of view and all.

#159
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Youth4Ever wrote...
They aren't idiots. They both would've got what they wanted cleanly had it not been for the Grey Warden in Loghain's situation and the Lyrium Idol in Meredith's-- two exceptional gamechangers. Loghain was named Regent and Meredith had annuled the Circle of Magi.


If it wasn't for the GW, then all of Ferelden would have been lost to the Blight. Riordan would have died in the Denerim dungeons, and even if he escaped somehow, he would have fled to Orlais. Celen and the Orlesian GWs wouldn't have been stupid enough to save Ferelden, and Loghain would have watched his entire country burn under the Blight.

#160
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I think the idea was that he would take advantage of the Blight to eliminate his political rivals that would stand in his way of garnering power. 


Or the idea was that he was working toghether with Loghain to remove Bryce from the start, since his lines about how Cailan is an idiot mirror Loghain's. There's no evidence it was a blight, remember? Just a "large darkspawn raid".

Anyway, while people detest him there's no real proof of what he's done unless you've survived a HN origin -- in which case Loghain knows, but I doubt Howe knows Loghain knows.


Well, no. The proof is that all of highever burden without there being any evidence of any darkspawn.

After Ostagar, he's amassed so much power -- two arlings and a teyrnir -- that he can't be contested openly.


He doesn't have anything other than his arling in Amaranthine and the sacked ruins of Highever. And the entire might of the Couslands - plus Fergus! is at Ostagar. Even if Fergus dies, the entire might of Highever would still be intact unless it gets broken at Ostagar. Somehow. Presumably through magic. Or the plot with Loghain.

Now, Loghain and Anora probably would've teamed up to remove him from that much power after the Blight. I'd like to think that Anora would lure him in with ideas of him becoming chancellor to the throne -- feeding his massive ego and lust for power.

Then Loghain would have some of his men ready to apprehend Howe and he'd be tried for treason, because Anora would've seen what he was. 


Loghain is an idiot, so the chance of this happening is null.

I dunno. I'm not too savvy on how nobles betraying liege lords in real life played out and was justified enough to not warrant a trip to the hangman's noose.


It invovled less sacking of their keep with military might, unless they had support from other nobles. Say, the other Teyrn and future regent when the King were to die in a betrayal during a battle.

Not when it's convenient. When there's enough clear in-game evidence to dispute Word of God.


Oh, you mean other things that writer personally wrote? And only when they fit with your pre-existing opinion, right? Because you're very happy to declare bad writing instead of a conspiracy between Howe and Loghain, which explains Highever perfectly and is no different than what Loghain already would have done with Eamon.

Indeed, if Loghain and Howe conspired from the start, that explains both Eamon and Bryce. It's the best explanation.

Modifié par In Exile, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:07 .


#161
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Monica21 wrote...

Most of these arguments against Loghain and his "evil villian" status are pretty ridiculous, simply because no one bothers to look under the surface and they're just fine believing him to be an "evil villian."


Indeed. It's sad that people will view him as obviously evil when he isn't. It's fine if they view him as a man who's done too many wrong things -- even in the name of good -- to keep from being executed, provided they give a reasonable and intelligent reason for why they feel that way.

And not just "But Alistair, he'll leave!"

Hell, I've seen villains who were so obviously evil that you couldn't help but want to see them dead, and they were much better written then what Bioware's been churning out recently. And that's because care was given to their characters.

Aerys the Mad King of Westeros and Ashnard the Mad King of Daein. Insane, obviously evil, but incredibly well-written if you ask me. Very nuanced.

#162
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Plotholes, damn games full of them, but do you know something , the game series is bloody amazing, brilliant to play, immersing as fook, replay value of a high end hooker and all the fun of Dirty Harry meeting Roland Deschain in a lowtown bar.

ok to far i guess

#163
lil yonce

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In Exile wrote...

If it wasn't for the GW, then all of Ferelden would have been lost to the Blight. Riordan would have died in the Denerim dungeons, and even if he escaped somehow, he would have fled to Orlais. Celen and the Orlesian GWs wouldn't have been stupid enough to save Ferelden, and Loghain would have watched his entire country burn under the Blight.

And that sort of situation might have been avoided if the Grey Wardens would weren't so secretive. If they didn't keep everyone in the dark. If they would have told Loghain and Cailan the real reason their order was needed instead of allowing themselves to be potrayed simply as storybook heroes. Loghain didn't believe the Grey Wardens were necessary to defeat the Archdemon and you can't blame him for that. If his plan was based on a falsehood, it's one he couldn't have possibly known.

He still would've done everything else right, however, after disposing of Cailan. Organizing the necessary support for the final battle etc. He was after all, and then a few Warden backroom deals with the Queen, the Arl of Redcliffe, and a bastard Prince later, his plan came undone.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:15 .


#164
Monica21

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In Exile wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Well, he's not wrong, is he?


That depends on whether you believe that a marriage between Celene and Cailan is a bad thing. Any child of their is as much a Calenhand as a whatever the hell Celene is.

Okay then. If you don't realize that Ferelden would become part of the Orlesian empire, then I don't know what to say. If you do realize it and still think it wouldn't be a bad thing, then, I just don't know what to say. If Ferelden wants to maintain independence, that marriage can't happen.

It doesn't matter. He's still an idiot, even "just" if it is an unprecedent darkspawn raid that parallels those that only occur during a blight and hasn't happened ever in Ferelden, even during a Blight.

Okay. Opinion noted.

Because they're stupid lengths. If he decides to order mass executions of all men with mustaches because he believes a mustache is the secret sign that someone is an Orlesian bard, he's not justfieid, he's a loon. His actions in DA:O are closer to that than sensible.

"They're stupid." Again, opinion noted.

#165
Monica21

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I feel as though it's worth mentioning that it's 2013 where I am. Happy New Year! :)

#166
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Monica21 wrote...

I feel as though it's worth mentioning that it's 2013 where I am. Happy New Year! :)


happy new year m8, hope you n family have a good yin, spelling mistakes n all :wub:

#167
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In Exile wrote...

Because you're very happy to declare bad writing instead of a conspiracy between Howe and Loghain


Says the person who first brought up the notion of "Otherwise this is just bad writing" when he was told Word of God absolved Loghain of being complicit in the Couslands' deaths.

Pot calling the kettle black.

It's the best explanation.


Also a case of pot calling the kettle black. You tell me that I'm only disagreeing with Word of God because it's convenient for me, yet when you were told Word of God proved Loghain innocent you dispute it because it's convenient for you.

I'm disputing it because the things Bioware wrote in-game and the things David Gaider said on here do not mesh together. They contradict each other.

You're just going "This is right, because it's the only logical explanation" when there's absolutely nothing in-game to support the idea other then.... well...

Or the idea was that he was working toghether with Loghain to remove Bryce from the start, since his lines about how Cailan is an idiot mirror Loghain's. There's no evidence it was a blight, remember? Just a "large darkspawn raid".


That's your evidence? Similar viewpoints on Cailan?

Jesus, then my Warden must've been allied with Loghain from the very beginning of the game because he told Duncan "He(Cailan) seems like a fool to me".

By that logic, every noble that wanted Bryce on the throne -- and loved the man -- instead of Cailan because the former was more qualified was in cahoots with Loghain.

Loghain is an idiot, so the chance of this happening is null.


Never said it'd be Loghain's idea.

In my view, Anora would come up with the idea while Loghain would provide the military insurance to apprehend Howe. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:28 .


#168
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Monica21 wrote...

I feel as though it's worth mentioning that it's 2013 where I am. Happy New Year! :)


It's 2013 where I am too!

We need a Loghain pic that fits this occasion, genuine or fan-made! :P

#169
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Image IPB

#170
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Works for me!

#171
Monica21

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Hugs and drinks all around in a Loghain thread! Unprecedented! I'll sing Auld Lang Syne to myself though. It's better that way.

#172
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sooo aye, loghain the arishok an meredith go for a pint in the pub, guess what was spoke about lol

#173
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Monica21 wrote...

Hugs and drinks all around in a Loghain thread! Unprecedented! I'll sing Auld Lang Syne to myself though. It's better that way.


i double dare ya to do it out loud an record it :innocent:

#174
Dorrieb

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Monica21 wrote...
However, I'm beginning to find it boring trying to argue in favor of a complex and subtle antagonist to people who want to be spoon fed the bad guy.


I don't believe I've said anything like that.

Edit: I think the problem is that some people can't reconcile the idea of a complex and subtle antagonist with the concept of 'villain'. To them, if a character has complex motivations, hidden depths, and even virtues, then obviously that character couldn't possibly be a baddie. They think that a villain can only be a one-dimensional psychopath who goes 'mwahahaha' a lot and cooks children on sticks just for laughs.

In this you are wrong. Loghain is a complex and rounded character and still a villain.

Modifié par Dorrieb, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:55 .


#175
In Exile

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Youth4Ever wrote...
And that sort of situation might have been avoided if the Grey Wardens would weren't so secretive. If they didn't keep everyone in the dark. If they would have told Loghain and Cailan the real reason their order was needed instead of allowing themselves to be potrayed simply as storybook heroes. 


They're also idiots. But they think that their recruitment would drop if people knew the cost. Which is silly, because one would think that people that don't know it - i.e., Jory - don't have the fortitude to be a GW anyway and so you're not really giving up anything.

Loghain didn't believe the Grey Wardens were necessary to defeat the Archdemon and you can't blame him for that. If his plan was based on a falsehood, it's one he couldn't have possibly known.


He's an idiot not for not putting faith in a legend, but in ignoring the raw evidence of how dangerous this 'raid', even if that's all it was, would be to Ferelden.

He still would've done everything else right, however, after disposing of Cailan. Organizing the necessary support for the final battle etc. He was after all, and then a few Warden backroom deals with the Queen, the Arl of Redcliffe, and a bastard Prince later, his plan came undone.


No - he was in the middle of a civil war. Eamon was against him, but Eamon would have died. Redcliffe would have been overrun by demons, the circle tower would have been overrun by pride demonds... even if Denerim could Marshall reinforcemens to hold back the Tower, Redcliffe itself would probably be lost, with Connor lose.

Eventually Orzammar would sort itself out, but it would be locked out - Darkspawn outside its gates and darkspawn at the Deep Roads.

Without a Warden, Loghain loses. He wouldn't have known he'd lose, so that's not his fault,  but he had no chance to win. His actual best case outcome is getting spared at the Landsmeet.

Modifié par In Exile, 01 janvier 2013 - 07:11 .