127 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

As well-written as the game is, I was disappointed that they telegraphed Loghain's betrayal so obviously.  I'm tired of seeing the character that's going to turn traitor be so easily recognized as shifty that you wonder why on earth anybody would trust him.  It happens so often in games...I think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.  Not that I should single out Bioware, traitors who practically wave a flag to announce themselves in advance are rife in so many games.  I was actually hoping they would not take the obvious route.

That said, the dialogue has really been very good.  I'm really enjoying the back and forth between Morrigan and Alistair.  Bioware's writing has come a LONG way since the first Baldur's Gate.

[TheMadCat]

Yeah it was pretty obvious with the camera shift and his expression at the meeting, but I actually liked that. You knew he was up to something but you didn't know what. What he actually did and how soon it was done did surprise me though simply because I didn't expect him to be willing lose to the Darkspawn which from all I've heard the whole game are the ultimate threat and must be defeated. So while it was telegraphed, the how and when did surprise me and that's the important part I think.

[tallon1982]

After reading so many books and seeing a lot of movies it really didn't surprise me that Loghain was evil. When I read the prequel novels after playing the game it made me hate him even more. I had no pity for him whatsoever. Basically he is Lancelot in a much darker form.

[fantasypisces]

tallon1982 wrote...

After reading so many books and seeing a lot of movies it really didn't surprise me that Loghain was evil. When I read the prequel novels after playing the game it made me hate him even more. I had no pity for him whatsoever. Basically he is Lancelot in a much darker form.

Omg thank you!
I played the game and hated Loghain. Read The Stolen Throne and hated Loghain more. Just got The Calling today (only 100 pages in) and so far not liking the guy.

Yet, whenever I read discussions on the novels, people seem to like Loghain after they finish them. I never understand it.

Yes his betrayel is sort of telegraphed, but the manner of the betrayel was the shocker for me. I thought his actions were going to reveal themselves much later in the game, not at the very beginning where he betrays the King and a whole army, that caught me by surprise.

EDIT: Appaently my grasp of the English language is limited.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:01 .

[JasonPogo]

I read the books before I played the game. And I HATED Loghain from the very start. I actualy stoped reading The Stolen Trhone for a while since I was so pissed Rowan was going to fall for Loghain. I really liked Meric and was hopeing him and Rowan would hook up but instead he fall s for the elf. Well anyway back on point I am very glad I get to kill Loghain I never liked him.

[tallon1982]

I'm going to defend Rowan here...Rowan was totally taken advantage of. I believe she had every intention of sleeping with Maric that night but Katriel beat her to it. And what does Loghain do? He tries to move in. What a ******! He wanted her from the get go despite being told upfront she's off limits.



As for Maric...He fell for a pretty face. Sort of typical for most guys plus he was wounded. Did he really know what he was doing? Probably not but he did really love her and it pissed me off at what Loghain did about that situation too. Seriously...The Witch of the Wilds was right.

[JasonPogo]

tallon1982 wrote...

I'm going to defend Rowan here...Rowan was totally taken advantage of. I believe she had every intention of sleeping with Maric that night but Katriel beat her to it. And what does Loghain do? He tries to move in. What a ******! He wanted her from the get go despite being told upfront she's off limits.

As for Maric...He fell for a pretty face. Sort of typical for most guys plus he was wounded. Did he really know what he was doing? Probably not but he did really love her and it pissed me off at what Loghain did about that situation too. Seriously...The Witch of the Wilds was right.

I agree with you 100% poor Rowan...  And to top off Loghain's jerkness he kills the son of his sapposed true love.  I'm shure Rowan would have seen that it was for the good of Fareldan.  He is a grade A dick.

[fantasypisces]

tallon1982 wrote...

I'm going to defend Rowan here...Rowan was totally taken advantage of. I believe she had every intention of sleeping with Maric that night but Katriel beat her to it. And what does Loghain do? He tries to move in. What a ******! He wanted her from the get go despite being told upfront she's off limits.

As for Maric...He fell for a pretty face. Sort of typical for most guys plus he was wounded. Did he really know what he was doing? Probably not but he did really love her and it pissed me off at what Loghain did about that situation too. Seriously...The Witch of the Wilds was right.

Exactly!
F Loghain.

In my opinion, he had Katriel killed for two reasons.
1) So he wouldn't be tempted to want Rowan, but would still try to take advantage of her anyway. He wanted to be chivalrous about it, but went about it the wrong way.
2) He wanted Maric to suffer in the same way he suffered, having someone he loves be taken away from him, so that Maric would finally see the Orlesians as a threat. Because, somehow, after the death of his mother he still didn't?

F Loghain.

[fantasypisces]

To add on. my #2 option becomes apparent when Rowan talks with Loghain saying "you did tell Maric that she really did love him, right?" Even Rowan felt bad about the whole situation, not angry, which is saying something to Loghain's character.

[tallon1982]

I really doubt Rowan wanted her dead.

[fantasypisces]

tallon1982 wrote...

I really doubt Rowan wanted her dead.

That was my point, I might have just worded it wrong.
I was meaning, that even she, the one who is supposed to be his Queen, did not want the women that stole his heart to be dead. But Loghain ignored both of their viewpoints and misguided the young king.

I'm at the part in the Calling right now where Maric walks away from the campfire, seeing Cailan's face and thinking about what could have been. It's sad.

Blast you David Gaider and your awesome characters, you give me fits!

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:31 .

[JasonPogo]

Was I the only one who was SO sad and pissed when Rowan was just killed off in the epiloge? I mean she was by far my fav character in that book and then she just withers away and died in like two sentances. Hers is a sad story.

[tallon1982]

I think she died broken hearted. She was torn between two men she loved and it just ate her soul. Her love for Maric never faded despite her being around Loghain but she also wanted him too. It was most likely the broken heart and the guilt that killed her which is why she could never be saved.



OMG! She died a Padmé death! She lost the will to live!

[fantasypisces]

JasonPogo wrote...

Was I the only one who was SO sad and pissed when Rowan was just killed off in the epiloge? I mean she was by far my fav character in that book and then she just withers away and died in like two sentances. Hers is a sad story.

It was a bit upsetting, maybe could have been longer. Wasn't my favorite character so I didn't get distraught over it, but it was upsetting.

[SnakeStrike8]

Pish. They revealed that Loghain would betray you BEFORE the game actually released.

[fantasypisces]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Pish. They revealed that Loghain would betray you BEFORE the game actually released.

which makes me glad I read the books after playing the game, hehe.

[tallon1982]

I wish I could have sent him to Fort Drakon...Or fed him to the archdemon before I chopped it's head off. And when I say feed him to the archdemon I don't mean making him a Grey Warden either.

[JasonPogo]

haha I remeber before the game came out there were rumers that Loghain would be a secret companion and everyone was ll happy about it. I was just like "Why would I want him in my party?" I was far happyer when I found out I could cut his head off.

[errant_knight]

fantasypisces wrote...

tallon1982 wrote...

After reading so many books and seeing a lot of movies it really didn't surprise me that Loghain was evil. When I read the prequel novels after playing the game it made me hate him even more. I had no pity for him whatsoever. Basically he is Lancelot in a much darker form.

Omg thank you!
I played the game and hated Loghain. Read The Stolen Throne and hated Loghain more. Just got The Calling today (only 100 pages in) and so far not liking the guy.

Yet, whenever I read discussions on the novels, people seem to like Loghain after they finish them. I never understand it.

Yes his betrayel is sort of telegraphed, but the manner of the betrayel was the shocker for me. I thought his actions were going to reveal themselves much later in the game, not at the very beginning where he betrays the King and a whole army, that caught me by surprise.

EDIT: Appaently my grasp of the English language is limited.

I could tell that there was something goiing on with him, but it didn't occur to me that he would throw a major battle, destroy the Grey Wardens, and kill his king. I mean, OMG, this guy is supposed to be a war hero! I was just horrified when he left the field. I really don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to spare his life, even if it means missing a bunch of game possibilities. He deserved to die just for retreating when the battle depended on his reinforcements, let alone for causing the deaths of (almost) all the wardens in Fereldan or the king.

[tallon1982]

I can't bring myself to save him for the achievement either. What I might do is do it for the sake of getting it since it's easy then reload to kill him again. Then enjoy locking Anora in the tower after calling her a ****.

[Jaldecir]

The problem with Loghain's betrayal to me has always been how weak and confusing the reasons behind the betrayal itself. Consider this, Loghain is a jerk, that's a fact and we know it. Even after being a Grey Warden at the end (if you choose so), he still acts like a jerk. But then we get to another fact of his, he loves Ferelden like no others. He's the one person that would do anything for the country. Then there's another fact, he hates the outsiders. He doesn't want any outsiders to come and meddle in Ferelden's affair.



Now let's focus on the two latter points that I brought up:

1. Loghain loves Ferelden and would do anything for the country.

2. Loghain hates outsiders so much that he doesn't want them in the country.



So which one is more important for him? His love for his country or his hatred for outsiders? To me, Loghain was supposed to put more importance on his country than his hatred for outsiders. But then the game showed that it seemed that his hatred toward outsiders is the one more important. In my opinion, this weakens Loghain's character's depth by A LOT.



Consider the following:



1. Loghain knew that they needed Grey Warden to end the Blight

But what did he do? He betrayed the king and planned to kill all Grey Wardens at Ostagar, and refuse entry for outsider Grey Wardens. This action directly puts Ferelden at risk which doesn't make much sense to me because he keeps on saying over and over again that he's doing it for Ferelden. His idea of what's best for Ferelden might be questionable, but his love for Ferelden is obvious. Yet, he would put Ferelden of such high risk of being destroyed by the Blight.



It would make much more sense to remove Cailan and the Grey Warden AFTER the Blight if he wanted to. But by doing it so early at Ostagar, he made contradictory move.



2. Loghain knew that Anora would create trouble to him, but he didn't do anything about it.

Granted, we know that it's never easy to eliminate your own daughter, but for someone like Loghain, his refusal to kill Anora is questionable because he just ended up being in the middle doing nothing. He doesn't want to dethrone Anora and took the throne for himself. But he wants to overrule Anora in making decisions. It doesn't work that way at all because he's keeping the biggest threat around. It should be either you're willing to do anything for the country (including killing your own daughter), or you don't (which means that you should be able to tolerate outsiders helping out the nation as well). But Loghain's character ended up being in the middle of that which makes him lose depth to me.



So we go back to the original topic about betrayals. Why did Loghain betray Cailan at all? Of course he doesn't really like Cailan, Cailan is rather a weak king, and he wants to get rid of Grey Warden. Fair enough, but then what does Loghain actually gain from the betrayal? Absolutely nothing because Anora was still the one in charge theoritically. Putting himself as a regent is a very weak gain after pulling such a bold move at Ostagar.



So basically Loghain's gain was only the chance to lead Ferelden to end the Blight without outsiders help, and that's unfortunately a very weak gain. He could've and should've been deeper than that.

[fantasypisces]

errant_knight wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

tallon1982 wrote...

After reading so many books and seeing a lot of movies it really didn't surprise me that Loghain was evil. When I read the prequel novels after playing the game it made me hate him even more. I had no pity for him whatsoever. Basically he is Lancelot in a much darker form.

Omg thank you!
I played the game and hated Loghain. Read The Stolen Throne and hated Loghain more. Just got The Calling today (only 100 pages in) and so far not liking the guy.

Yet, whenever I read discussions on the novels, people seem to like Loghain after they finish them. I never understand it.

Yes his betrayel is sort of telegraphed, but the manner of the betrayel was the shocker for me. I thought his actions were going to reveal themselves much later in the game, not at the very beginning where he betrays the King and a whole army, that caught me by surprise.

EDIT: Appaently my grasp of the English language is limited.

I could tell that there was something goiing on with him, but it didn't occur to me that he would throw a major battle, destroy the Grey Wardens, and kill his king. I mean, OMG, this guy is supposed to be a war hero! I was just horrified when he left the field. I really don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to spare his life, even if it means missing a bunch of game possibilities. He deserved to die just for retreating when the battle depended on his reinforcements, let alone for causing the deaths of (almost) all the wardens in Fereldan or the king.

Yuppers. I only saved him once for the achievements, then reloaded to an earlier save point to finish the game how I would. Have not once saved him and not reloaded. I can't do it. I almost scream at my screen with a maniacle tone every time I chop his head off and the blood splashes on Anora "YEAH, that's what you get!!" While envisioning Alistair in the background going "woot woot, fist pump"

[JasonPogo]

fantasypisces wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

tallon1982 wrote...

After reading so many books and seeing a lot of movies it really didn't surprise me that Loghain was evil. When I read the prequel novels after playing the game it made me hate him even more. I had no pity for him whatsoever. Basically he is Lancelot in a much darker form.

Omg thank you!
I played the game and hated Loghain. Read The Stolen Throne and hated Loghain more. Just got The Calling today (only 100 pages in) and so far not liking the guy.

Yet, whenever I read discussions on the novels, people seem to like Loghain after they finish them. I never understand it.

Yes his betrayel is sort of telegraphed, but the manner of the betrayel was the shocker for me. I thought his actions were going to reveal themselves much later in the game, not at the very beginning where he betrays the King and a whole army, that caught me by surprise.

EDIT: Appaently my grasp of the English language is limited.

I could tell that there was something goiing on with him, but it didn't occur to me that he would throw a major battle, destroy the Grey Wardens, and kill his king. I mean, OMG, this guy is supposed to be a war hero! I was just horrified when he left the field. I really don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to spare his life, even if it means missing a bunch of game possibilities. He deserved to die just for retreating when the battle depended on his reinforcements, let alone for causing the deaths of (almost) all the wardens in Fereldan or the king.

Yuppers. I only saved him once for the achievements, then reloaded to an earlier save point to finish the game how I would. Have not once saved him and not reloaded. I can't do it. I almost scream at my screen with a maniacle tone every time I chop his head off and the blood splashes on Anora "YEAH, that's what you get!!" While envisioning Alistair in the background going "woot woot, fist pump"

Naw I let Alistair do it. It's good for him puts hair on his chest. and I fist pump and yell "Oh SNAP" at Anora when the blood hits her.

Modifié par JasonPogo, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:08 .

[fantasypisces]

Jaldecir wrote...

The problem with Loghain's betrayal to me has always been how weak and confusing the reasons behind the betrayal itself. Consider this, Loghain is a jerk, that's a fact and we know it. Even after being a Grey Warden at the end (if you choose so), he still acts like a jerk. But then we get to another fact of his, he loves Ferelden like no others. He's the one person that would do anything for the country. Then there's another fact, he hates the outsiders. He doesn't want any outsiders to come and meddle in Ferelden's affair.

Now let's focus on the two latter points that I brought up:
1. Loghain loves Ferelden and would do anything for the country.
2. Loghain hates outsiders so much that he doesn't want them in the country.

So which one is more important for him? His love for his country or his hatred for outsiders? To me, Loghain was supposed to put more importance on his country than his hatred for outsiders. But then the game showed that it seemed that his hatred toward outsiders is the one more important. In my opinion, this weakens Loghain's character's depth by A LOT.

Consider the following:

1. Loghain knew that they needed Grey Warden to end the Blight
But what did he do? He betrayed the king and planned to kill all Grey Wardens at Ostagar, and refuse entry for outsider Grey Wardens. This action directly puts Ferelden at risk which doesn't make much sense to me because he keeps on saying over and over again that he's doing it for Ferelden. His idea of what's best for Ferelden might be questionable, but his love for Ferelden is obvious. Yet, he would put Ferelden of such high risk of being destroyed by the Blight.

It would make much more sense to remove Cailan and the Grey Warden AFTER the Blight if he wanted to. But by doing it so early at Ostagar, he made contradictory move.

2. Loghain knew that Anora would create trouble to him, but he didn't do anything about it.
Granted, we know that it's never easy to eliminate your own daughter, but for someone like Loghain, his refusal to kill Anora is questionable because he just ended up being in the middle doing nothing. He doesn't want to dethrone Anora and took the throne for himself. But he wants to overrule Anora in making decisions. It doesn't work that way at all because he's keeping the biggest threat around. It should be either you're willing to do anything for the country (including killing your own daughter), or you don't (which means that you should be able to tolerate outsiders helping out the nation as well). But Loghain's character ended up being in the middle of that which makes him lose depth to me.

So we go back to the original topic about betrayals. Why did Loghain betray Cailan at all? Of course he doesn't really like Cailan, Cailan is rather a weak king, and he wants to get rid of Grey Warden. Fair enough, but then what does Loghain actually gain from the betrayal? Absolutely nothing because Anora was still the one in charge theoritically. Putting himself as a regent is a very weak gain after pulling such a bold move at Ostagar.

So basically Loghain's gain was only the chance to lead Ferelden to end the Blight without outsiders help, and that's unfortunately a very weak gain. He could've and should've been deeper than that.

Because in my opinion the man has gone stark raving mad from fear and prejudice. He can't get past Orlais, why? Because of what they did to his mother. So he see's Orlais as the biggest threat of all. Now, had Cailan called for help from the Free Marches I don't think it would have been the same scene. The Free Marches have a very strong military, but are not intersted in Ferelden outside of trade.

So to say that Loghain hates outsiders is not, technically, correct, he hates Orlais, the Chevalier's and the pompous court of Val Royeax. Afterall, he lets Tevinter slavers into the country to gather slaves from the Alienage to fund his civil war. Cailan could have called for any nation except for Orlais, hell, he probably could have called for help from the Qunari who most certainly would have stayed to try and conquer Ferelden, but Loghain would not have cared nearly as much. It was always only about Orlais.

[tallon1982]

Jaldecir wrote...

The problem with Loghain's betrayal to me has always been how weak and confusing the reasons behind the betrayal itself. Consider this, Loghain is a jerk, that's a fact and we know it. Even after being a Grey Warden at the end (if you choose so), he still acts like a jerk. But then we get to another fact of his, he loves Ferelden like no others. He's the one person that would do anything for the country. Then there's another fact, he hates the outsiders. He doesn't want any outsiders to come and meddle in Ferelden's affair.

Now let's focus on the two latter points that I brought up:
1. Loghain loves Ferelden and would do anything for the country.
2. Loghain hates outsiders so much that he doesn't want them in the country.

So which one is more important for him? His love for his country or his hatred for outsiders? To me, Loghain was supposed to put more importance on his country than his hatred for outsiders. But then the game showed that it seemed that his hatred toward outsiders is the one more important. In my opinion, this weakens Loghain's character's depth by A LOT.

Consider the following:

1. Loghain knew that they needed Grey Warden to end the Blight
But what did he do? He betrayed the king and planned to kill all Grey Wardens at Ostagar, and refuse entry for outsider Grey Wardens. This action directly puts Ferelden at risk which doesn't make much sense to me because he keeps on saying over and over again that he's doing it for Ferelden. His idea of what's best for Ferelden might be questionable, but his love for Ferelden is obvious. Yet, he would put Ferelden of such high risk of being destroyed by the Blight.

It would make much more sense to remove Cailan and the Grey Warden AFTER the Blight if he wanted to. But by doing it so early at Ostagar, he made contradictory move.

2. Loghain knew that Anora would create trouble to him, but he didn't do anything about it.
Granted, we know that it's never easy to eliminate your own daughter, but for someone like Loghain, his refusal to kill Anora is questionable because he just ended up being in the middle doing nothing. He doesn't want to dethrone Anora and took the throne for himself. But he wants to overrule Anora in making decisions. It doesn't work that way at all because he's keeping the biggest threat around. It should be either you're willing to do anything for the country (including killing your own daughter), or you don't (which means that you should be able to tolerate outsiders helping out the nation as well). But Loghain's character ended up being in the middle of that which makes him lose depth to me.

So we go back to the original topic about betrayals. Why did Loghain betray Cailan at all? Of course he doesn't really like Cailan, Cailan is rather a weak king, and he wants to get rid of Grey Warden. Fair enough, but then what does Loghain actually gain from the betrayal? Absolutely nothing because Anora was still the one in charge theoritically. Putting himself as a regent is a very weak gain after pulling such a bold move at Ostagar.

So basically Loghain's gain was only the chance to lead Ferelden to end the Blight without outsiders help, and that's unfortunately a very weak gain. He could've and should've been deeper than that.

Apparently Loghain has hatred for Therin line if you factor in the novels. In The Stolen Throne Loghain loses his father and the woman he wanted to Maric. Flemeth (Witch of the Wilds) tells Maric that Loghain will betray him. So that right there is something to consider. It's true he hates outsiders but more importantly he hates Orlaisians. They basically raped his mother in front of him. In The Calling they are behind a plot to capture him but instead capture Maric due to a misled Grey Warden mission to the Deep Roads.

As for what he gains...Well he does gain nothing. I don't think he would kill his daugher as long as he could control her. When she got out of hand she ended up in Howe's hands and we all know Howe wouldn't think twice about killing her. Also she truly is like her father. If she doesn't get her way she has no issues stabbing you in the back too.