127 réponses à ce sujet

[fantasypisces]

Well Jason, I always let Alistair do it too, "I chop his head off" mostly meant I give the command to do it.

[tallon1982]

Pity we can't cut his head off with a spoon...It would of hurt more.

[fantasypisces]

Tallon and I pretty much post the same reasoning, both in long posts, at the same time... it's getting creepy, I might go read some. Cheers for now.



And a spoon would be.... damm, you do like to torture people.

[JasonPogo]

I would have been cool with just stabing him in the gut and letting him bleed out slowly. Maybe put him in prison with Anora so she could watch him die.



On a side not I think tallon, fantasy and I should go to bed we have more or less taken over these boards tonight heh.

[fantasypisces]

JasonPogo wrote...

I would have been cool with just stabing him in the gut and letting him bleed out slowly. Maybe put him in prison with Anora so she could watch him die.

On a side not I think tallon, fantasy and I should go to bed we have more or less taken over these boards tonight heh.

Agreed

But since I do suffer from Insomnia, I will be up for hours yet.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:14 .

[NKKKK]

I think I'm the only one here who likes Loghain, then again I am veteran of the Legacy of Kain games, so that may factor.

Modifié par NKKKK, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:16 .

[Xandurpein]

Jaldecir wrote...

The problem with Loghain's betrayal to me has always been how weak and confusing the reasons behind the betrayal itself. Consider this, Loghain is a jerk, that's a fact and we know it. Even after being a Grey Warden at the end (if you choose so), he still acts like a jerk. But then we get to another fact of his, he loves Ferelden like no others. He's the one person that would do anything for the country. Then there's another fact, he hates the outsiders. He doesn't want any outsiders to come and meddle in Ferelden's affair.

Now let's focus on the two latter points that I brought up:
1. Loghain loves Ferelden and would do anything for the country.
2. Loghain hates outsiders so much that he doesn't want them in the country.

So which one is more important for him? His love for his country or his hatred for outsiders? To me, Loghain was supposed to put more importance on his country than his hatred for outsiders. But then the game showed that it seemed that his hatred toward outsiders is the one more important. In my opinion, this weakens Loghain's character's depth by A LOT.

I'm not sure I even understand what you mean by this. He is above all else committed to Ferelden's independance. He has fought a long hard war against Orlais with Maric and made some personal sacrifices in that war too. He hates Orlais and is passionate about defending Ferelden against Orlais. He also has a strong obsessive streak, as witnessed by among others Anora, and this makes him blind to the evil he does in the name of his hatred for Orlais. This does not make him a cuddly person, but I do not see how any of it can be construed as weakening the character's depth.

Jaldecir wrote...
Consider the following:

1. Loghain knew that they needed Grey Warden to end the Blight
But what did he do? He betrayed the king and planned to kill all Grey Wardens at Ostagar, and refuse entry for outsider Grey Wardens. This action directly puts Ferelden at risk which doesn't make much sense to me because he keeps on saying over and over again that he's doing it for Ferelden. His idea of what's best for Ferelden might be questionable, but his love for Ferelden is obvious. Yet, he would put Ferelden of such high risk of being destroyed by the Blight.

It would make much more sense to remove Cailan and the Grey Warden AFTER the Blight if he wanted to. But by doing it so early at Ostagar, he made contradictory move.

No he did not. Neither the player nor Loghain is told a Grey Warden is needed to end the Blight until Riordan explains it. Until then it is merely a 400 year old legend as far as anyone knows. There is no reason for him to assume that a reasonably efficient army couldn't defeat an Archdemon without any Grey Wardens until Riordan explains it.

Jaldecir wrote...

2. Loghain knew that Anora would create trouble to him, but he didn't do anything about it.
Granted, we know that it's never easy to eliminate your own daughter, but for someone like Loghain, his refusal to kill Anora is questionable because he just ended up being in the middle doing nothing. He doesn't want to dethrone Anora and took the throne for himself. But he wants to overrule Anora in making decisions. It doesn't work that way at all because he's keeping the biggest threat around. It should be either you're willing to do anything for the country (including killing your own daughter), or you don't (which means that you should be able to tolerate outsiders helping out the nation as well). But Loghain's character ended up being in the middle of that which makes him lose depth to me.

So... um... because he is not a totally extreme character, he looses depth??? Because he is a patriot that hates Orlais, but still loves his daughter and won't sacrifice her when it's not even necessary his character looses depth???  I don't know how I can state the fact that you obviously don't know what you are talking about, better than you just did yourself.

Jaldecir wrote...

So we go back to the original topic about betrayals. Why did Loghain betray Cailan at all? Of course he doesn't really like Cailan, Cailan is rather a weak king, and he wants to get rid of Grey Warden. Fair enough, but then what does Loghain actually gain from the betrayal? Absolutely nothing because Anora was still the one in charge theoritically. Putting himself as a regent is a very weak gain after pulling such a bold move at Ostagar.

So basically Loghain's gain was only the chance to lead Ferelden to end the Blight without outsiders help, and that's unfortunately a very weak gain. He could've and should've been deeper than that.

You are repeatedly falling into the trap of assuming he has the same goals you think he ought to have. To Loghain the chance to lead Ferelden to end the Blight without having to invite Orlesian knights is EVERYTHING. He is convinced that if an Orlesian army is allowed to enter Ferelden, then the country's independence is over and all he and Maric fought for will be lost.

Your whole line of reasoning ends up in being that he is a weak character because he doesn't think like you do.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 janvier 2010 - 07:04 .

[fantasypisces]

I agree with Xanderpein, it isn't so much what he gains, it is more Orlais cannot enter the country no matter the cost.

[tallon1982]

Loghain's hate blinded him. He was suppose to protect Calian and he ended up doing the opposite.

[Xandurpein]

tallon1982 wrote...

Loghain's hate blinded him. He was suppose to protect Calian and he ended up doing the opposite.

In Loghain's view, Cailen should be defending Ferelden and he isn't. Loghain respected Maric's strength, even if they had personal differences over women, Loghain was always loyal to Maric. Cailen is weak and let's not forget that he is cheating on Anora, Loghain's daughter. In Loghain's paranoid mind Cailen is the traitor and he the only one who can save Ferelden from Cailen.

[tallon1982]

Cailan is the son of the woman he loved dearly. He did respect Maric to a point and he was told by Maric to watch over his son. Regardless of what Calian does Loghain had no right to commit treason. Anora said that the cheating happened early on in their relationship but their love grew. She says he "had" his women. Loghain ruined the life of his daughter and pretty much spit on the graves on Rowan and Maric with what he did.

[Xandurpein]

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 janvier 2010 - 07:03 .

[Vicious]

think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.

THANK YOU. 100% agree completely.



Anyway Loghain's party banter sheds a lot of light on his personality.



http://dragonage.wik...nion's_Dialogue



Particularly his dialogue with Dog.



He is, at best, a deeply disturbed man.

[fantasypisces]

I need to go back and play Baldur's Gate II again. I did it when I was younger so don't remember a lot. And I always created my own six man party, so missed out on a lot of the characters.



Will have to buy it again through, no idea where my discs are (don't think a friend ever returned them).

[fantasypisces]

Vicious wrote...

think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.

THANK YOU. 100% agree completely.

Anyway Loghain's party banter sheds a lot of light on his personality.

http://dragonage.wik...nion's_Dialogue

Particularly his dialogue with Dog.

He is, at best, a deeply disturbed man.

The sad part is, as much as I hate the man, a lot of his dialogue is beautiful, especially to Dog, damn the writers.

[Xandurpein]

Vicious wrote...

think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.

THANK YOU. 100% agree completely.

I have to say that after all the s**t Bastila gave me about duty it took same gall for her to betray me to the Dark side...

[Xandurpein]

fantasypisces wrote...

Vicious wrote...

think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.

THANK YOU. 100% agree completely.

Anyway Loghain's party banter sheds a lot of light on his personality.

http://dragonage.wik...nion's_Dialogue

Particularly his dialogue with Dog.

He is, at best, a deeply disturbed man.

The sad part is, as much as I hate the man, a lot of his dialogue is beautiful, especially to Dog, damn the writers.

You actually get one of the most beautiful scenes in the whole game if you kill Loghain yourself, when he talks to Anora about duaghters always being six years old in the eyes of their fathers.

[fantasypisces]

Xandurpein wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Vicious wrote...

think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.

THANK YOU. 100% agree completely.

Anyway Loghain's party banter sheds a lot of light on his personality.

http://dragonage.wik...nion's_Dialogue

Particularly his dialogue with Dog.

He is, at best, a deeply disturbed man.

The sad part is, as much as I hate the man, a lot of his dialogue is beautiful, especially to Dog, damn the writers.

You actually get one of the most beautiful scenes in the whole game if you kill Loghain yourself, when he talks to Anora about duaghters always being six years old in the eyes of their fathers.

Yup.

"Hush Anora it is Over"
Anora: Do not speak to me like I am a child
Loghain: Daughters never grow up, they remain six years old forever, with skinned knees and pigtails.

(or something along those lines)

[Xandurpein]

maxernst wrote...

As well-written as the game is, I was disappointed that they telegraphed Loghain's betrayal so obviously.  I'm tired of seeing the character that's going to turn traitor be so easily recognized as shifty that you wonder why on earth anybody would trust him.  It happens so often in games...I think Bioware has had at least one "surprise" betrayal in every RPG they've made, but only one (Yoshimo in BG2) was even remotely surprising.  Not that I should single out Bioware, traitors who practically wave a flag to announce themselves in advance are rife in so many games.  I was actually hoping they would not take the obvious route.

That said, the dialogue has really been very good.  I'm really enjoying the back and forth between Morrigan and Alistair.  Bioware's writing has come a LONG way since the first Baldur's Gate.

I think the whole idea about Loghain is actually the opposite. First he is set up as an obvious arch-villian, and then we slowly get to see other sides of him to make it less certain. To me the real purpose of Loghain is to make us ask ourselves just how like him are we willing to become in order to win...

That aside, I REALLY want to thank you for the last line. I am a bit tired of the "best RPG since Baldur's Gate 2" description of Dragon Age. Bioware's writing is on the whole a lot stronger now than back in Baldur's Gate. Characters are, on the whole, much deeper now.

[Dennis Carpenter]

Interesting I guess you all freed sten and had him join your party to redeem himself and perhaps also Zevran............one a convicted murderer of an entire family including children .........the other a murderer for hire..........yet someone who betrays somebody you barely know does not get a chance to redeem his soul. Now Arl Howe (if your a noble) well he killed .............well the targets were different. So anyone want to justify why 2 murderers are ok and can be best buds and a third cannot??

[Xandurpein]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

Interesting I guess you all freed sten and had him join your party to redeem himself and perhaps also Zevran............one a convicted murderer of an entire family including children .........the other a murderer for hire..........yet someone who betrays somebody you barely know does not get a chance to redeem his soul. Now Arl Howe (if your a noble) well he killed .............well the targets were different. So anyone want to justify why 2 murderers are ok and can be best buds and a third cannot??

The easy answer is that we never got a chance in the game to recruit Howe even if we wanted to. But in all honesty you seem to the type who prefers easy black-white moral situations. I should say that it takes a certain amount of selective blindness to navigate this game with that attitude.

[fantasypisces]

Because Sten is clearly repentant of it from the start. Clearly there was something more at play than what was being said on the surface. He wants to attone killing darkspawn, fine, I'll let him. He feels guilty, clearly it was not his intention to do so.



Zevran I saw it more as it was his job to do so. Maybe it was choice, who knows. But what are the Warden's, we are technically glorified assassins, when you think about all the quests we get. We kill a few dwarf nobles, a lot of mages, a keeper of the Dalish, the list goes on. He mentions not having loyalty to Loghain, that he was hired to do it and failed. He prefers living. He is very upfront about it all.



Every single character in this game is a murderer in some form or another.



The difference with Loghain is that he was not hired to do what he did, and he did not feel remorse over it. Listen to his dialogue with companions after you recruit him, he doesn't regret it. He is stark raving mad. He alone killed hundreds of soldiers and a King, he attempted to kill a very important noble, he sold Elves into slavery. That goes beyond killing one family, or killing because you are hired to do it, and if you don't comply, you are killed instead.



Heck, in a couple of my playthroughs I kill Connor. I killed a kid. I consider myself a murderer for that, but there were sane reasons for why I did it. Sten's response when he wakes up is not sane and he regrets it. Zevran shows no remorse but he is sane in his actions, he wants to live.

[Dennis Carpenter]

yes I definitely am I have often been told i have no gray area even by my shrink who says I need to open that up more so actually playing this game is sort of therapeutic for me in the fact that I have to make choices that are incomprehensible for me in real life. Which is why I asked about other peoples opinions as to why they would travel with two murderers yet Kill a betrayer.

[Xandurpein]

oh, and if repentant murderers aren't your thing, I suppose that means Leliana is out too...?

You don't really believe she got all her fighting skills from seducing people?

[Dennis Carpenter]

@fantasypisces.......if as you say Loghain is stark raving mad (which does fit his irrational viewpoints) then how can you justify killing him when he clearly is not in control of rationl thinking. Also If you let him live and talk to him on the roof you find out he does realize his mistakes finally and thanks you for allowing him to make up for it. Much like Sten who at first just wants to be left to die and doesnt really make any redemption offer until you bring it up.