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[fantasypisces]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

@fantasypisces.......if as you say Loghain is stark raving mad (which does fit his irrational viewpoints) then how can you justify killing him when he clearly is not in control of rationl thinking. Also If you let him live and talk to him on the roof you find out he does realize his mistakes finally and thanks you for allowing him to make up for it. Much like Sten who at first just wants to be left to die and doesnt really make any redemption offer until you bring it up.

Because I can't trust him to become sane once I spare his life.

He only says that on the roof (from my point of view) so that you will have him make the sacrifice, making him not only a hero, but not having to live on as a Grey Warden.

[Herr Uhl]

Xandurpein wrote...

oh, and if repentant murderers aren't your thing, I suppose that means Leliana is out too...?
You don't really believe she got all her fighting skills from seducing people?

STD:s can be an effective weapon.

The only non-murderers are probably Ali, Wynne and Dog pro-recruitment.

[Dennis Carpenter]

I definitely find the fringe morality of this game sometimes difficult to deal with (from my perspective) but after all it is only a game and no one really suffers because of you decisions. I do try to stay in character as much as I can and attempt to understand or rationalize my actions based on that characters belief system. But I have not found one yet that doesn't somewhere have to bend his beliefs to make some choice. perhaps that is why I like this game so much.

[Xandurpein]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

yes I definitely am I have often been told i have no gray area even by my shrink who says I need to open that up more so actually playing this game is sort of therapeutic for me in the fact that I have to make choices that are incomprehensible for me in real life. Which is why I asked about other peoples opinions as to why they would travel with two murderers yet Kill a betrayer.

Well... I want to improve the world and make it a better place. Punishment does nothing except remove a bad person. Making a bad person start doing good things is better for the world than just removing him. So redeeming a bad person leads to a better world than a world without the person.

On a personal level I suppose I'm the sort of person who can be very upset with people who I feel treat me badly, but I almost always become easy as a puppy dog as soon as someone says "I'm sorry" and apologize. But that's jsut me...

[Asylumer]

fantasypisces wrote...

The difference with Loghain is that he was not hired to do what he did, and he did not feel remorse over it. Listen to his dialogue with companions after you recruit him, he doesn't regret it. He is stark raving mad. He alone killed hundreds of soldiers and a King, he attempted to kill a very important noble, he sold Elves into slavery. That goes beyond killing one family, or killing because you are hired to do it, and if you don't comply, you are killed instead

Maybe you're the one who should go back and listen to his dialogue... seriously, your blind hatred for the guy makes you see nothing good in him but it's right in front of your face. Shale even taunts him because "I'll do anything for Ferelden" Loghain couldn't bring himself to kill his own daughter and get the throne before serious challenge could be made.

The PC only wins in the end because of Loghain's Achilles heel.

[Dennis Carpenter]

fantasypisces wrote...


Because I can't trust him to become sane once I spare his life.

He only says that on the roof (from my point of view) so that you will have him make the sacrifice, making him not only a hero, but not having to live on as a Grey Warden.

Or perhaps he knows he has failed all his family as well as rowan and maric and realizes that if someone must die to defeat this demon then it should be him as a fitting penance for what he has done.

Just another viewpoint based on the character i was playing at the time.

I also played a character who let him live and slept with morrigan so he didnt have to die but that character was a scuz and only wanted to get in good with anora and be king.

[Xandurpein]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...


Because I can't trust him to become sane once I spare his life.

He only says that on the roof (from my point of view) so that you will have him make the sacrifice, making him not only a hero, but not having to live on as a Grey Warden.

Or perhaps he knows he has failed all his family as well as rowan and maric and realizes that if someone must die to defeat this demon then it should be him as a fitting penance for what he has done.

Just another viewpoint based on the character i was playing at the time.

I also played a character who let him live and slept with morrigan so he didnt have to die but that character was a scuz and only wanted to get in good with anora and be king.

I think that Loghain puts it quite well himself on Fort Drakon. "I've done so much wrong, let me do this one thing right". Whether that is a way to atone for his sins or a way to earn unwarranted glory is really up to you to decide for yourself, that is why you have a choice of possible responses.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The most fitting punishment for Loghain would be to put him on public display, so people can throw rotten tomatos on him and he'll live with his shame and guilt...and then you banish him.



Killing the Archdemon isn't really redemption, he's a dead many anyway, and besides, he doens't deserve the honor.



For someone who betrays a king and kills thousands, a quick death is actually mercifull. Historicly, he would he probably been thrown to hte torutures for a while, nefore being killed.



It depends on the following:

- how mercifull do you feel

- if you think he deserves redemption

- if you think he deserves the honor of being a GW



Hmm... the best punishment would be to leave him alive, doing demeaning community work...but not joining the wardens.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
...and then you banish him.

To Orlais [insert maniacal laughter]

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The most fitting punishment for Loghain would be to put him on public display, so people can throw rotten tomatos on him and he'll live with his shame and guilt...and then you banish him.

Killing the Archdemon isn't really redemption, he's a dead many anyway, and besides, he doens't deserve the honor.

For someone who betrays a king and kills thousands, a quick death is actually mercifull. Historicly, he would he probably been thrown to hte torutures for a while, nefore being killed.

It depends on the following:
- how mercifull do you feel
- if you think he deserves redemption
- if you think he deserves the honor of being a GW

Hmm... the best punishment would be to leave him alive, doing demeaning community work...but not joining the wardens.

You did  leave one very important question out, but I suppose that's to be expected:
- if you think there are other things than punishment that are more important, such as stopping the Blight.

[Bagheeris]

Loghain is not my personal hero and i have not read the novels but i would like to come to his defense a bit. Let's ask ourselves a few questions:

- Why he retreated from Ostagar battle?
He sees Cailan is an incompetent military leader who just seeks personal glory and is a threat for Ferelden safety. And i tend to agree. If you discuss Cailan's immaturity with Duncan, he does not protest either. When Loghain suggests to wait for Redcliffe forces before engaging the main darkspawn horde, Cailan brings up Orlesians. That is an insult to older Ferelden liberators and in Loghain' s eyes can dangerously close to betrayal of Ferelden. Loghain gives the king one last chance (he tries to persuade the king it is too risky to stay in the front line) but the king refuses to listed to the advice.


- Why he tries to kill Grey Wardens who are essential to end the Blight?
First, no one except Wardens really know it's a real Blight. The last Blight ended 400 years ago and most previous Blights avoided Ferelden so very little is known about them. Second, no one but (senior) Grey Wardens know how to kill Archdemon. Loghain is a military commander. Even if one Grey Warden is worth 10-20 normal soldiers, there's only handful of them. They cannot make a real difference in defeating the major force of the darkspawn horde. Ostagar outcome confirms that. And third, i have not played Warden's Keep DLC yet but i believe there is a reason to be suspicious about Grey Wardens' intentions towards Ferelden. After all, they are a "trans-national" order, they would not really care if Ferelden is occupied by Orlais, so long as the Blight is defeated.


- Why he framed Grey Wardens to be responsible for the king’s death?
Well, Duncan was in a delicate position so he did not really tried to oppose to Cailan’s kinda naive tactics and invitation of Orlesian forces. In this sense, he is co-responsible for the outcome.

- Why he tries to kill Arl Eamon?
We don't know exactly when Loghain decided to poison him. Time sequence is not quite clear here. During mage origin, Jowan is still in the tower. When you reach Lothrien, there are already Redcliffe knights there searching for the Urn. It is probable that Loghain decided to get Eamon out of the way right after Ostagar, as an pre-emptive strike against expected resistance from nobles. Ruthless, but if you look at the real Middle Ages, not exceptional. Duncan kills Ser Jory the moment he sees he's a threat to Grey Wardens. With regret, but without hesitation. Mercy is not a typical virtue of successful Middle Age rulers.

- Why is agrees to sell elves to slavery?
For money, ofc. Few people really care about elves. Rebuilding an army takes priority and it costs money. Loghain’s philosophy is clearly “the end justifies the means“. Talk to Duncan about using blood magic against darkspawn. Substitute "the Blights must be stopped (at all costs)“ for "Ferelden must be protected (at all costs)“.
 
In the end i still don't like Loghain but i think i mostly understand what he does and why.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Does punishing him prevent you from stopping the blight? No. Wether you kill him or throw him in the dungeon or do whatever.

Since that is the case, then the Blight is of minor concern here.

To Orlais [insert maniacal laughter]

yes, I was thinking the same thing, but didn't write it. That might be..too cruel.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Does punishing him prevent you from stopping the blight? No. Wether you kill him or throw him in the dungeon or do whatever.
Since that is the case, then the Blight is of minor concern here.

The question can be phrased: Would it be useful to have the former leader of the loosing faction in the civil war stand by the victor's side to show that Ferelden is truly united, or do you feel that it's more important to show everyone that the looser is punished. I believed in the former, you obviously in the latter.

Arguing that Loghain is not needed, becuase you know that you managed to beat the game without him is ridiculous and dishonest and it's of course pure metagaming. It's like saying that the treaties with the elves and dwarves are useless as when I play I can reach Fort Drakon without them, or saying Wynne is a useless character because I never use her in my party.

At the time the choice is made all we know is that it'll be touch and go if the armies of Ferelden and a few Grey Wardens can defeat the enemy at Denerim or not. It's very reasonable to think that any help you can get is useful.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:42 .

[tallon1982]

Wasn't the plan at Ostagar Loghain's to begin with? It wasn't Calian's plan. And Calian was proving that if Loghain wanted to wait for the armies from Redcliffe then they should also wait for more Wardens from Orlais while they were at it.

[Popemaster123]

tallon1982 wrote...

After reading so many books and seeing a lot of movies it really didn't surprise me that Loghain was evil. When I read the prequel novels after playing the game it made me hate him even more. I had no pity for him whatsoever. Basically he is Lancelot in a much darker form.

ummmm lancelot does not actually have a place in history as he never existed but small detials....]

I see what youre saying though and i agree

[Zan Mura]

Have to agree here. Even way before the game just following the boards it came obvious real fast who was going to be the bad guy there. Of course, Loghain's not one-dimensional. Still, that doesn't do much to alleviate the fact that his move was obvious from a billion miles off. Same with JE too, and to be honest I'm pretty thick with these things, usually I just go along with the story without really thinking or criticizing. I'm rarely the first one to notice these things among my friends for example.

There doesn't need to be any big alarm signs before someone betrays you, much like with Yoshimo, it's far better if there were none to *very* few. The kind that can only be understood AFTER the betrayal. Not knowing beforehand does nothing to reduce the very real reasons that could've motivated the deed after all. Just that you should find out about it after.

[fantasypisces]

Asylumer wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

The difference with Loghain is that he was not hired to do what he did, and he did not feel remorse over it. Listen to his dialogue with companions after you recruit him, he doesn't regret it. He is stark raving mad. He alone killed hundreds of soldiers and a King, he attempted to kill a very important noble, he sold Elves into slavery. That goes beyond killing one family, or killing because you are hired to do it, and if you don't comply, you are killed instead

Maybe you're the one who should go back and listen to his dialogue... seriously, your blind hatred for the guy makes you see nothing good in him but it's right in front of your face. Shale even taunts him because "I'll do anything for Ferelden" Loghain couldn't bring himself to kill his own daughter and get the throne before serious challenge could be made.

The PC only wins in the end because of Loghain's Achilles heel.

I never brought up Anora. I do not have blind hatred for the guy, my first couple playthroughs I listened intently to what he had to say. My third playthrough I saved him to get the achievement. Went through every dialogue option with him, gave him gifts to unlock more, went around the world to see the conversations with opinions, and I was still not impressed. I gave the man a shot, that is not blind hatred.

I never said there was nothing good about the man, he clearly loves his daughter, I think I agreed with another poster on that point.

But just because he cannot kill his daughter does not make him redeemable for all the other actions he has done. I said he doesn't regret anything he did, and you know what, I'm right. He doesn't regret killing Cailan. He tells Wynne he knew the names and families of every soldier on that field, he knows "exactly how much he lost" at the battle, but never once says it was wrong, never once really shows regret. He essentially says, I know who they are, but it doesn't matter. When Shale mocks him about not killing his daughter he agrees with Shale... you know why? Because he doesn't regret letting his daughter live.... Like I said, he regrets nothing.

Based upon my view of the character, at the top of the tower, he wants to kill the archdemon so he will be forgiven in the eyes of the people, so he will die a hero. That however, still does not mean he regrets anything he did, having the people forgive you =/= remorse. In fact, dying to the archdemon is the easy way out. Unless you are in a romance with Alistair, it is the same with him, dying to the archdemon is the easy way out, that way he does not have to become King. Both of the decisions from both men are very rational and I have no complaints with them. The difference is I may let one person do it while not letting the other.

Trust me, my eyes are wide open.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The most fitting punishment for Loghain would be to put him on public display, so people can throw rotten tomatos on him and he'll live with his shame and guilt...and then you banish him.

Personally, I think the best punishment for Loghain is to be exhiled to Orlais to either serve as a court gimp, or sold to a ****house in Val Royeaux. But that's just me.

Killing the Archdemon isn't really redemption, he's a dead many anyway, and besides, he doens't deserve the honor.

Agree here. I myself hold little reverence for "glorious death, honorable death", but, in the eyes of the massess, he will be remembered as a hero. Which, I do not think he really deserves. Especially after allowing the sale of elves into slavery to Tevinter blood mages.

For someone who betrays a king and kills thousands, a quick death is actually mercifull. Historicly, he would he probably been thrown to hte torutures for a while, nefore being killed.

Very true. After seeing what happens to prisoners of the darkspawn in the deep roads, and knowing that many at ostagar were dragged down into the deep roads to potentially become broodmothers or ghouls, a quick chop to the head was actually a very charitable thing to do.

It depends on the following:
- how mercifull do you feel
- if you think he deserves redemption
- if you think he deserves the honor of being a GW

Mercy: By Landsmeet, I'm fresh out of it. Part of it got spent on the kinky little elf I keep in bondage in my tent. the same one Loghain sent my way to assassinate me.

Redemption: Real redemption requires remorse. When I spared Loghain and exhausted the conversations with him, I found no evidence of such. He submits bitterly because I am stronger, not because he thought he was wrong in the many things he did. He is only remorseful that he failed to see my "strength". He just wasn't helping his case much. Screw my "strength". I want to hear him wail and scrape over the elves, Uldred, Jowan, and Howe. But nope. I think he suffers more from the possession of the Pride Demon than Uldred ever did.

GW: I don't consider it an honor, more a curse. But it's my damned curse, and I sure as hell don't want a bond in blood with someone like him.

Hmm... the best punishment would be to leave him alive, doing demeaning community work...but not joining the wardens.

I still say life as an Orlesian's ****. But, I'm a bit sadistic.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 07 janvier 2010 - 09:13 .

[jon 45]

Bagheeris wrote...

Loghain is not my personal hero and i have not read the novels but i would like to come to his defense a bit. Let's ask ourselves a few questions:

- Why he retreated from Ostagar battle?
He sees Cailan is an incompetent military leader who just seeks personal glory and is a threat for Ferelden safety. And i tend to agree. If you discuss Cailan's immaturity with Duncan, he does not protest either. When Loghain suggests to wait for Redcliffe forces before engaging the main darkspawn horde, Cailan brings up Orlesians. That is an insult to older Ferelden liberators and in Loghain' s eyes can dangerously close to betrayal of Ferelden. Loghain gives the king one last chance (he tries to persuade the king it is too risky to stay in the front line) but the king refuses to listed to the advice.



- Why he tries to kill Arl Eamon?
We don't know exactly when Loghain decided to poison him. Time sequence is not quite clear here. During mage origin, Jowan is still in the tower. When you reach Lothrien, there are already Redcliffe knights there searching for the Urn. It is probable that Loghain decided to get Eamon out of the way right after Ostagar, as an pre-emptive strike against expected resistance from nobles.

Two points:

-It's pretty clear to me that Loghain urging Cailin to not fight on the frontlines is Loghain pushing the glory seeking king to do exactly that. Just like Cailan brings up the Orlesians when he wants to shut Loghain up. Both know each other well enough to know which buttons to push, only Loghain uses this knowledge to kill the king.

-It is made perfectly clear that Loghain hired Jowan before the battle at Ostagar. He has been plotting against Cailan for a while and is comitted to his path by the time you meet him there.

[tallon1982]

He became what he hated most.

[bobsmyuncle]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

Interesting I guess you all freed sten and had him join your party to redeem himself and perhaps also Zevran............one a convicted murderer of an entire family including children .........the other a murderer for hire..........yet someone who betrays somebody you barely know does not get a chance to redeem his soul. Now Arl Howe (if your a noble) well he killed .............well the targets were different. So anyone want to justify why 2 murderers are ok and can be best buds and a third cannot??

Sten is repentant in a weird Qunari way, and Zevran was trying to commit suicide, not kill you. Loghain not only left half the army including his king to die, but forfeiting Ostagar caused other losses due to the Blight running unchecked across Ferelden until the Warden PC assembles a second army and confronts the horde at Denerim. Furthermore he isn't sorry about it either. He considers it a tactical error, at most.

[Herr Uhl]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

... and Zevran was trying to commit suicide, not kill you...

But still, he does kill you if you do not kill all the other assassins and knock him out first. Bad way of committing suicide, no?

[bobsmyuncle]

Herr Uhl wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

... and Zevran was trying to commit suicide, not kill you...

But still, he does kill you if you do not kill all the other assassins and knock him out first. Bad way of committing suicide, no?

I suppose in that case he didn't realize the warden he was fighting was so much fail

But in reality, people who are suicidal don't always go for the easiest way out. Sometimes they want to go out in a way that is somehow symbolic to them, or they just choose to engage in progressively riskier behavior and hope it catches up to them.

Anyway, If you become good friends with Zevran, he'll tell you that nobody was going to take Loghain's contract against you because of the reputation of the Wardens, and he'll admit that he chose to take it for the same reason.

[Herr Uhl]

bobsmyuncle wrote...
I suppose in that case he didn't realize the warden he was fighting was so much fail

But in reality, people who are suicidal don't always go for the easiest way out. Sometimes they want to go out in a way that is somehow symbolic to them, or they just choose to engage in progressively riskier behavior and hope it catches up to them.

Anyway, If you become good friends with Zevran, he'll tell you that nobody was going to take Loghain's contract against you because of the reputation of the Wardens, and he'll admit that he chose to take it for the same reason.

I thought he said that it a subconscious decision. I know why he did it, I quite like the chap.

But he still does try to kill you. I don't see it as betrayal though since he does not have any relation to you to betray.

[Dennis Carpenter]

so then betrayal is worse then murder?????????? Did you kill the soldiers in the tavern after leliana told you they surrendered. They werent sorry about attacking you they were sorry they didnt realize how strong you were. My point is if you give second chances then you might want to consider giving everyone that option.