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[Xandurpein]

Asylumer wrote...

Going through the Toolset dialogue I came across this, something for all of us to think about:

If you bring up Ostagar

"Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him."

Comments: He believes this. It's not true, exactly, but he believes it.

Yeah. I think that may be the real truth. It's possible that Loghain could have reached Cailen in time to save them, when the beacon was lit, but somewhere he convinced himself he couldn't. He dragged his feet and told himself it was too late, then he quit the field. Maybe Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar was just that. Hopefully we will learn more when RtO is released.

Do you know who says it?

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Personally, I think the best punishment for Loghain is to be exhiled to Orlais to either serve as a court gimp, or sold to a ****house in Val Royeaux. But that's just me.

I shall have to mod this...

Now all I need is a very profound "NOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" voice clip!


Addendum:  I really don't care if he regreats what he did or not. If he does - good for him and may the Maker have mercy on his soul. If not, may he rot in hell.
Eitehr way, I have no intention whatsoever to allow him to end up in the history books as a hero.

At least it seems we can agree to disagrere on this one I hope:
I think Loghain can and will do more good for Ferelden as a Grey Warden then as dead. That's the only reason I have and need for letting him join. You apparently believe the opposite.

[Asylumer]

Xandurpein wrote...

Do you know who says it?

Loghain does when you confront him at the Landsmeet about Cailen's death.

His logic begins to fall together if he thinks the Warden's deliberately delayed the signal. He'd see it as proof of an Orlesian plot (his paranoia) and that's why he places a bounty on the Grey Wardens. His other actions were in the name of uniting Ferelden in time to stop the Darkspawn and, given his fears, an Orlesian assault. He knows what he did was wrong but saw no other way.

It makes one wonder why it wasn't true, exactly. Could he have saved Cailen, but with great losses? Was it faintly possible, but unlikely? Hopefully RtO will fulfill our wishes and shed more light on his decision.

When Wynne confronts him in their dialogue she backs down after he explains why he didn't go after the King. Notice how she doesn't dispute his claims. If Loghain were lying about the Darkspawn, she'd certainly have called him out on it.

Loghain: You can stop scowling
at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your
permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was
entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly
scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would
benefit me, personally.

Loghain: Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal
with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I
witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to
mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save
him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape
with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to
your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the
head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that
could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to
have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are
cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the
soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to
you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I
knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their
families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of
things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that
day.

[Whailor]

I didn't read any books so can't talk about those, don't think I ever will read them. Computer game is enough for me. As for Loghain and Anora - I don't think that he ever thought that Anora would turn against him. He saw her still as a child and thought that she'll follow him like a child follows a parent, but he underestimated her desire for power. I don't think that Anora even had any plans to turn against Loghain until Arl Eamon, the Grey Warden and Alistair showed up. That's the moment when she realized that if her cards are played right and carefully, there's a chance to "de-throne" Loghain and get the comfy seat of the queen to herself. She didn't consider Alistair to be a serious opponent as she thought that he's just as clueless and "blue-eyed" as Cailan was. But she still was careful, you can see that even when you so-called "rescue" her from Howe - if you in any way blow her cover to Ser Cautherin, she's the first to point a finger at you and yell that it was actually you who tried to kidnap her. But she makes here pretty much the same mistake her father did by underestimating the Grey Warden and Alistair. Loghain considered her to be just a child - his mistake. Anora considered the Grey Warden and Alistair to be just clueless warriors - her mistake.



As for Loghain's betrayal - let's assume I did not know the story from the trailers and teasers, then I would have said that initially I did not think that he'd betray his king and country like he did. It was obvious that he did not like Grey Wardens but it seemed to be not a personal grudge, more like the notion "who the heck the Grey Wardens think they are, like they're the only ones who can swing a sword and kill a darkspawn". Guess he also saw the Grey Wardens as a threat, meaning that there's the young and inexperienced king who's enthralled by the legends about Grey Wardens and that because of this, that king may start to give all kinds of "benefits and bonuses and rights" to Grey Wardens and listen more to them then to him. You know, the jealousy mixed with a fear for his own importance and position. After all, he was known as a hero, but as a hero of the past and human memory is fleeting, remembers only things at hand. His victory over Orlesians was 30 years ago and to some it already was just a story, darkspawn threat however was a real thing and meant the possible raise of new heroes who'll out shadow the old ones. And, of course, the hatred of Orlesians. He hated anyone from Orlais, for a reason, no matter whether they were in any way tied to occupation or not. That was his source of paranoia.



So before the fight went off, and let's say that I didn't know about his upcoming actions, I would have guessed that he would have tried something during the fight. Let's say the king would get into trouble and he would not help him and later blame someone else, like the Grey Wardens. For example. But that he'd turn his back right at the start and run and let so many fereldans to be slaughtered - that was a (small) surprise. But, it also was easiest way straight to power, power what he might have coveted for a long time. Few flies with one hit - smack them pesky Grey Wardens who think they're so tough, smack that uppity young king who dared to question him, smack followers most loyal to the king and later smack that "pesky darkspawn raid on farms" (he didn't believe that it's a Blight for pretty much until the end), chance to become a hero again. King and a hero at once, ain't it sweet. Achieve the power now and become a legend in history.



However, this time the things were different and one set back after another started to hit him. He realizes pretty soon that he doesn't have the control he hoped to have and at some point, when Howe brings in an assassin from Crows, he seems to even think that how bad things have come and how low must one go now to get done what needs to be done, by his views. But he still refuses to acknowledge that things are slipping through his fingers, pretty much all the way until the Landsmeet. I think that when he came to Landsmeet he knew that the things weren't good by far but he still hopes that his "past achievements" and his claims that Grey Wardens killed the king (he can't really prove it, never could and especially not now but then again, Grey Wardens cannot prove otherwise either, so it's a word against word and he hopes that his word has more weight) and want to rule the Ferelden will hold water and bring him out to the top. So how player plays the Landsmeet out determines how Loghain really loses all of his "aces" - will he be found guilty or will he still remain to some as a victim. Player can gather enough evidence and by choosing what to say to remove any credibility from Loghain without a fight, even when Anora supports him. He will call for a duel but that's already grasping for straws. Once he's defeated, he will realize, finally, that he has met his match and that he has lost everything. When player cannot convince the Landsmeet and it breaks into fight, then that's simply an armed coup which removes him from power. He still loses, of course, but to some he'll still be a hero and the ruler who had his position taken from him by force.

[Xandurpein]

Asylumer wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Do you know who says it?

Loghain does when you confront him at the Landsmeet about Cailen's death.

His logic begins to fall together if he thinks the Warden's deliberately delayed the signal. He'd see it as proof of an Orlesian plot (his paranoia) and that's why he places a bounty on the Grey Wardens. His other actions were in the name of uniting Ferelden in time to stop the Darkspawn and, given his fears, an Orlesian assault. He knows what he did was wrong but saw no other way.

It makes one wonder why it wasn't true, exactly. Could he have saved Cailen, but with great losses? Was it faintly possible, but unlikely? Hopefully RtO will fulfill our wishes and shed more light on his decision.

When Wynne confronts him in their dialogue she backs down after he explains why he didn't go after the King. Notice how she doesn't dispute his claims. If Loghain were lying about the Darkspawn, she'd certainly have called him out on it.

I also hope RtO will shed more light on this. It's amazing how it all boils down to what players think happen at Ostagar. We all played it, yet there are just so many different adamant beliefs about what really happened. I have to admit that I forgot the part where Loghain pins Cailen's death on the Grey Wardens for being too late in lighting the beacon. It does make sense, whether it's true or not. If it is true that Loghain really believed so, then just about everything we know about the civil war comes in a different light.

Maybe that is why they delayed RtO. They know fans will be picking every little conversation about what happened apart so they have to recheck everything ten times over.

[Xandurpein]

Whailor wrote...

I didn't read any books so can't talk about those, don't think I ever will read them. Computer game is enough for me. As for Loghain and Anora - I don't think that he ever thought that Anora would turn against him. He saw her still as a child and thought that she'll follow him like a child follows a parent, but he underestimated her desire for power. I don't think that Anora even had any plans to turn against Loghain until Arl Eamon, the Grey Warden and Alistair showed up. That's the moment when she realized that if her cards are played right and carefully, there's a chance to "de-throne" Loghain and get the comfy seat of the queen to herself. She didn't consider Alistair to be a serious opponent as she thought that he's just as clueless and "blue-eyed" as Cailan was. But she still was careful, you can see that even when you so-called "rescue" her from Howe - if you in any way blow her cover to Ser Cautherin, she's the first to point a finger at you and yell that it was actually you who tried to kidnap her. But she makes here pretty much the same mistake her father did by underestimating the Grey Warden and Alistair. Loghain considered her to be just a child - his mistake. Anora considered the Grey Warden and Alistair to be just clueless warriors - her mistake.

As for Loghain's betrayal - let's assume I did not know the story from the trailers and teasers, then I would have said that initially I did not think that he'd betray his king and country like he did. It was obvious that he did not like Grey Wardens but it seemed to be not a personal grudge, more like the notion "who the heck the Grey Wardens think they are, like they're the only ones who can swing a sword and kill a darkspawn". Guess he also saw the Grey Wardens as a threat, meaning that there's the young and inexperienced king who's enthralled by the legends about Grey Wardens and that because of this, that king may start to give all kinds of "benefits and bonuses and rights" to Grey Wardens and listen more to them then to him. You know, the jealousy mixed with a fear for his own importance and position. After all, he was known as a hero, but as a hero of the past and human memory is fleeting, remembers only things at hand. His victory over Orlesians was 30 years ago and to some it already was just a story, darkspawn threat however was a real thing and meant the possible raise of new heroes who'll out shadow the old ones. And, of course, the hatred of Orlesians. He hated anyone from Orlais, for a reason, no matter whether they were in any way tied to occupation or not. That was his source of paranoia.

So before the fight went off, and let's say that I didn't know about his upcoming actions, I would have guessed that he would have tried something during the fight. Let's say the king would get into trouble and he would not help him and later blame someone else, like the Grey Wardens. For example. But that he'd turn his back right at the start and run and let so many fereldans to be slaughtered - that was a (small) surprise. But, it also was easiest way straight to power, power what he might have coveted for a long time. Few flies with one hit - smack them pesky Grey Wardens who think they're so tough, smack that uppity young king who dared to question him, smack followers most loyal to the king and later smack that "pesky darkspawn raid on farms" (he didn't believe that it's a Blight for pretty much until the end), chance to become a hero again. King and a hero at once, ain't it sweet. Achieve the power now and become a legend in history.

However, this time the things were different and one set back after another started to hit him. He realizes pretty soon that he doesn't have the control he hoped to have and at some point, when Howe brings in an assassin from Crows, he seems to even think that how bad things have come and how low must one go now to get done what needs to be done, by his views. But he still refuses to acknowledge that things are slipping through his fingers, pretty much all the way until the Landsmeet. I think that when he came to Landsmeet he knew that the things weren't good by far but he still hopes that his "past achievements" and his claims that Grey Wardens killed the king (he can't really prove it, never could and especially not now but then again, Grey Wardens cannot prove otherwise either, so it's a word against word and he hopes that his word has more weight) and want to rule the Ferelden will hold water and bring him out to the top. So how player plays the Landsmeet out determines how Loghain really loses all of his "aces" - will he be found guilty or will he still remain to some as a victim. Player can gather enough evidence and by choosing what to say to remove any credibility from Loghain without a fight, even when Anora supports him. He will call for a duel but that's already grasping for straws. Once he's defeated, he will realize, finally, that he has met his match and that he has lost everything. When player cannot convince the Landsmeet and it breaks into fight, then that's simply an armed coup which removes him from power. He still loses, of course, but to some he'll still be a hero and the ruler who had his position taken from him by force.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I disagree with some of your points. That's really more opinion than fact so make of it what you want. first of all I don't agree with your description of Anora just out to get rid of her father and rule for herself. I believe she is genuinly torn between her love and respect for her father and her growing suspicion that Loghain may have killed her husband. It's blatantly obvious that she really respects her father, whatever the rest of the world may think of her. She will try to hang on to her crown yes, and even play dirty to keep it, but I think you made her out worse than she is.

There is also the matter of what really happened at Ostagar. We simply do not know what really happened as we only have hearsay. It is concievable that Loghain simply quit the field in a planned move to kill Cailen and the Grey Wardens, but I doubt it. It may be just a huge misunderstanding because the player couldn't light the tower in time so it was to late to save Cailen, or it can be something in between. Maybe Loghain made himself belive it was to late to save Cailen because it would solve his problems.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...

You base your whole argument on the fact that everyone in Ferelden believes Loghain to be evil like you do. It's made perfectly clear in the game that the vast majority of the people in Ferelden has no clue what Loghain has done. Not even the nobles who knows a lot more about politics than the commoners are decided until you can dig up enough make them. I seriously doubt there much of an issue with troop morale for pardoning Loghain at all.

Apparently, more then enough people didn't trust Loghian anymore, or there wouldn't be a civil war.
Furthermore, when you expose him at the Landsmeet, do you think the news won't spread?
Do you think the people wont' be curious as to why he was stripped of his rank and priviliges (or killed)?
So even if most people do not know, they will soon enough.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not everyone can become a Grey Warden. Duncan travels high and low to find good recruits. I do not know what it is he looks for, but it's abundantly clear that only rare individuals fit the bill, and that whatever it is that it takes does not include a high moral standing. Riordan is the senior Grey Warden and he says Loghain makes a good recruit. Fine - I bite the bullet and accept his judgement. It strips Loghain of his power and may even kill him.

And I say again - you have a town full of potential recruits. Rhirdan never sez Loghain is the ONLY one in the town that makes a good recruit.

I agree that the Landsmeet is not really that well concieved, but I can see lots of reasons to make Loghain a Grey Warden. He is NOT a frothing madman, despite what you would have us belive, and unless you think Riordan is a liar, he is a good candidate for the Grey Wardens. He is not just a big man with a sword, he has years of experience leading the war against Orlais - a tactical skill that few can equal. If he is stripped of his power and made to take the right oaths, then he is no longer a political problem.

Frankly, I think Rhiordan is als oa few short, but that's beside the point.
He IS a madman, for only a madman woulddo what he does - even after figuring out he was wrong.
If oyu spare him, he's NOT made a general. His tactical "genius" is worthles, sicne you're hte one leading the armies, not him.

And no. It really doens't work that way. A man who has military power and charisma doesn't suddenly cease to be a threat jsut because you say so. You can stip him of his rank, but there will be plenty of peopel still willing to follow him.

All that remains is to decide what matters most. Your need for vengeance and punishment or your desire to make the Grey Wardens as strong as possible. I do not really hold it aginst those who want to roleplay it that they need vengeance more, but I still think it's a reasonable postiton to feel it's acceptable to make Loghain a Grey Warden if you are able to see beyond the need for vengeance.

And this has been exactly my point, the one you have been missing since day 1.
It's not about choosing between vengacne/justice/duty and the blight/wardens/duty.

TI's a false dillema. Making the wardens stronger has nothing to do with whatever you do to Loghain.
Again, NOTHING in the game tells you that you can't make other people into wardens, so you're NOT weakining the wardens by killing him. If that is your argument, then maybe we should go around holding people down and forcing them to drink from the cup....

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

You base your whole argument on the fact that everyone in Ferelden believes Loghain to be evil like you do. It's made perfectly clear in the game that the vast majority of the people in Ferelden has no clue what Loghain has done. Not even the nobles who knows a lot more about politics than the commoners are decided until you can dig up enough make them. I seriously doubt there much of an issue with troop morale for pardoning Loghain at all.

Apparently, more then enough people didn't trust Loghian anymore, or there wouldn't be a civil war.
Furthermore, when you expose him at the Landsmeet, do you think the news won't spread?
Do you think the people wont' be curious as to why he was stripped of his rank and priviliges (or killed)?
So even if most people do not know, they will soon enough.

Enough nobles didn't trust him, and the term "civil war" is probably a rather strong term as there is no mention of actual warfare that I know of, but please correct me if you have proof to the contrary. The point of the Landsmeet was to avoid a civil war rather than actually settle it, at least that what I get from Arl Eamon. The point is that the nobles of Ferelden where torn between Loghain and Arl Eamon, you can convince them to vote for you, but I think you misunderstand the situation utterly if you think that this means now the nobles of Ferelden collectivly wants Loghain's blood and thinks that his annihilation is the only acceptable solution. Lot's of them would still respect him for what he did in the war against Orlais and would prefer a paceful solution I think.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not everyone can become a Grey Warden. Duncan travels high and low to find good recruits. I do not know what it is he looks for, but it's abundantly clear that only rare individuals fit the bill, and that whatever it is that it takes does not include a high moral standing. Riordan is the senior Grey Warden and he says Loghain makes a good recruit. Fine - I bite the bullet and accept his judgement. It strips Loghain of his power and may even kill him.

And I say again - you have a town full of potential recruits. Rhirdan never sez Loghain is the ONLY one in the town that makes a good recruit.

I agree that the Landsmeet is not really that well concieved, but I can see lots of reasons to make Loghain a Grey Warden. He is NOT a frothing madman, despite what you would have us belive, and unless you think Riordan is a liar, he is a good candidate for the Grey Wardens. He is not just a big man with a sword, he has years of experience leading the war against Orlais - a tactical skill that few can equal. If he is stripped of his power and made to take the right oaths, then he is no longer a political problem.

Frankly, I think Rhiordan is als oa few short, but that's beside the point.
He IS a madman, for only a madman woulddo what he does - even after figuring out he was wrong.
If oyu spare him, he's NOT made a general. His tactical "genius" is worthles, sicne you're hte one leading the armies, not him.

And no. It really doens't work that way. A man who has military power and charisma doesn't suddenly cease to be a threat jsut because you say so. You can stip him of his rank, but there will be plenty of peopel still willing to follow him.

Naturally everyone in the game who voices an opinion that is contrary to your firmly held belief is a madman, I've come to understand that. And Loghain is of course a madman because he doesn't reason like you would in his situation.

Of course a man's tactical abilities can be useful even if he doesn't lead personally. Have you ever heard of staffwork? He can be a tactical advisor, without leading himself. He can help organize things. He does not have to be a general himself to be very useful with those talents. Loghain has to renounce his power and if he still has poewer and personal charisma to be a force to reckon with after, it just proves that he is indeed the right man for the Grey Wardens. I thought all things considered that I would give him the benefit of doubt. I would have him close to me, surrounded by people I trust and if it turned out I was wrong I could always kill him after, but it turned out to be unnecessary. But I suppose that makes me a madman too in your book.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

All that remains is to decide what matters most. Your need for vengeance and punishment or your desire to make the Grey Wardens as strong as possible. I do not really hold it aginst those who want to roleplay it that they need vengeance more, but I still think it's a reasonable postiton to feel it's acceptable to make Loghain a Grey Warden if you are able to see beyond the need for vengeance.

And this has been exactly my point, the one you have been missing since day 1.
It's not about choosing between vengacne/justice/duty and the blight/wardens/duty.

TI's a false dillema. Making the wardens stronger has nothing to do with whatever you do to Loghain.
Again, NOTHING in the game tells you that you can't make other people into wardens, so you're NOT weakining the wardens by killing him. If that is your argument, then maybe we should go around holding people down and forcing them to drink from the cup....

Well... that is more or less what Duncan did to me, so it seems Grey Wardens can do that. The only thing Duncan didn't do was to force it on anybody. We are never told why, but Duncan did pick only rare individuals to become Grey Wardens recruits, so there can't be that many possible candidates to choose from, but they definitly don't need to be volounteers. The right of conscription is a fact. Duncan WILL force you to join the Grey Wardens if you don't come along on your own  volition. That he doesn't do so to more people probably means that only some rare individuals are truly desirable candidates.

The reason Riordan offers the solution of making Loghain a Grey Warden is because there is a real dilemma, at least in his mind. How to deal with this once great man, who still has formidable qualities, but have lost himself and done some terrible things (although exactly what and why is still open to debate). I can see Riordan's view on this, but that doeasn't mean I don't kill Loghain in some playthrough, depending on what character I play, but to state that you gain nothing by making him join because you could pick up people of his quality on the street is not true either.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 janvier 2010 - 11:45 .

[ArathWoeeye]

well, loghain's betrayal happens pretty much in the start of the game anyway. I think they made a good decision to make it obvious that he didn't like what's going on around. But the way he backstabs wasn't expected by me, since it's not a mere plan to kill the king and wardens, but also sacrifices the lives of a good amount of soldiers.



Honestly, I hate Howe more than Loghain. I didn't expect his treachery. I thought he was just another snide noble. But nooo.. that double crossing sonuvanug. I'm looking forward to kill him as a human noble. THAT will be the most satisfying fight for me.

[tallon1982]

Unfortunately for me when I heard Tim Curry's voice as Howe I just had a bad feeling about the character lol. I thought Howe wouldn't be bad just to give him the benefit of the doubt but when the attack happened...Let's just say it's on like Donkey Kong.

[Ariella]

Herr Uhl wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

... and Zevran was trying to commit suicide, not kill you...

But still, he does kill you if you do not kill all the other assassins and knock him out first. Bad way of committing suicide, no?

You ever hear of "suicide by cop"? Same situation here.

[Ariella]

Asylumer wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Do you know who says it?

Loghain does when you confront him at the Landsmeet about Cailen's death.

His logic begins to fall together if he thinks the Warden's deliberately delayed the signal. He'd see it as proof of an Orlesian plot (his paranoia) and that's why he places a bounty on the Grey Wardens. His other actions were in the name of uniting Ferelden in time to stop the Darkspawn and, given his fears, an Orlesian assault. He knows what he did was wrong but saw no other way.

Actually this is TOTALLY untrue, as we've been told by Dave Gaider that Loghain was plotting against Cailan BEFORE Ostagar:

Spoilers Forum | David Gaider | Mon Nov 9 15:15:25 2009

To Stolen Throne readers who beat the game:
[It's
interesting. "He will betray you, each time worse than the last." In my
mind, the bigger crime for Loghain is that he kill *Rowan's* son -- but
Loghain is definitely capable of that kind of blindness when it comes
to doing what he thinks is best.



You're only going to
ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in what Loghain
did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but ultimately his
decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe this was actually
a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because if it was it made
the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else she said true as
well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through the game he
realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already cast.



Whether
this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to
act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily
susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the
player's perception.]

[Ariella]

Xandurpein wrote...


Enough nobles didn't trust him, and the term "civil war" is probably a rather strong term as there is no mention of actual warfare that I know of, but please correct me if you have proof to the contrary.

Actually, the second cutscene with Howe talks about battles going on, and you CAN get involved in part of the war directly, by a Chanter's board side quest called Loghain's push, where he sends men to seize the land of Bann Talmonn, who refuses to bend knee to Loghain.

[fantasypisces]

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king?  Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you?  I knew their names, mage, and where they came from.  I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men.  I know exactly how much I lost that day.

[/list]You don't think the man has experienced regret? Really?

No I do not think he regrets it. He knew the value of them and used them that way. He knew them, and used them. They meant something to him, they meant a battle would take place that he could leave and say there was no chance to rescue them. The question was "they meant nothing to you". The response is "they did mean something". They meant his plan succeeding. It's like any pieces you sacrifice in any strategy game. Those pieces do have meaning, they are worth the sacrifice.

But let's say I agree with you that he does regret losing the men. Does he regret his plan? No, he does not. So we can say he is a good person for regretting the loss of his men, but he does not regret sending them to the battle to lose. Which in turn leaves me to believe he didn't care about the men at all. If he was really going to regret killing hundreds of people, he would not have staged a pointless coup.

And yes it was pointless. You say letting in Orlesians so close after the occupation is stupid. How many troops you think the Orlesians are going to send? Probably an armies worth, yes. You think an average size army can take the country? Ferelden was conquered so easily in the past because they were disorganized, they were a backwater nation. They are not any longer. If anything, Loghain killing all those men in the army actually weakened Ferelden more to Invasion from the Orlesians.

But lets look at it from a different point. They never summoned the Orlesians, hell they probably didn't need them. Loghain made a faulty battle-plan because he wanted the army to lose. He wanted Cailan to die. If Loghain would have charged with his heavy infantry when the signal was lit, I think there is a VERY good chance Ferelden would have won, but he didn't. Because of Loghain, the army lost. Because of Loghain Ferelden's forces were made weaker. Because of Loghain a civil war started which calimed even more Ferelden lives. Because of Loghain the blight was able to get to Denerim and sack the city.

If I was Orlesian and I did plan on trying to retake Ferelden I would not do it when their morale was high after stopping a blight, with the country united, with the majority of their forces still intact.  I would have done it after the PC and his companions stop the blight. Ferelden is now devastated, it's perfect. Orlais could literally walk right into the capital if they wanted. But as far as we can tell from the Epilogue which seems to account for a few years (at least) Orlais never comes. Wait wait wait, didn't Loghain do all this to stop Orlais from coming? ****, I don't think they would have anyway. Ergo, his coup was a waste.

It means he's still making rational decisions and not totally consumed by hatred for Orlais.

Wait wait wait. So you are saying a person cannot be crazy if they make some rational decisions? Have you ever taken psychology? Here is a real world example. My friend has a two year old daughter who is thriving. My friends mother (who lives out of state) is normally quite rational person. Yet, she calls the police to say that my friend has a meth lab and his girlfriend beats their daughter. None of those things are true, so why did she do that? Because she wants a daughter of her own, and is willing to see her son suffer so she can have a daughter to raise on her own. I'm not kidding with you at all. This really happened. Tell me she isn't crazy for that? Oh wait you wouldn't though, to you she would be perfectly sane because outside that one event in her life she has always made rational dicisions.

If we assume he did betray the king by quitting the field when it
wasn't necessary, and after going through the toolset I'm about to toss
that theory right out myself, then he did what he thought was necessary
for Ferelden to be free.

His reasoning is flawed as to the examples I posted above. Yes, killing the king, destroying a good amount of your forces, destroying more of your forces in a civil war, then having even more of the forces die because you neglected the real threat (the blight) is a great way to gurantee your country freedom from occupation! . He may have thought he was right, but as you learn at the landsmeet and from generally everyone you meet, the majority think he is an idiot.

Loghain didn't even believe it was a true Blight, why would he let Cailen get away with that?

Yeah because thousands of darkspawn pouring out onto the surface that require a whole Ferelden army to fight not one, but many battles against them, is a common occurrence in Thedas. . Loghain heard Orlais and that was immedietly all he could think of. The sheear amount of darkspawn present should have been enough for any rational man to think something not normal was occuring.

They ended up doing the battle anway, without the Orlesians there, without the Orlesians anywhere in the country. So why betray Cailan, you could have easily defeated the darkspawn then had words with him in private about trusting Orlais so much. To Cailan the situation seemed dire, Cailan was thinking they might need more troops just in case. So after the battle, and after you have won, Orlesian troops would no longer be needed. So why kill a good amount of the Ferelden fighting force which would then make it even easier for Orlais to invade?

[Asylumer]

Ariella wrote...

Asylumer wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Do you know who says it?

Loghain does when you confront him at the Landsmeet about Cailen's death.

His logic begins to fall together if he thinks the Warden's deliberately delayed the signal. He'd see it as proof of an Orlesian plot (his paranoia) and that's why he places a bounty on the Grey Wardens. His other actions were in the name of uniting Ferelden in time to stop the Darkspawn and, given his fears, an Orlesian assault. He knows what he did was wrong but saw no other way.

Actually this is TOTALLY untrue, as we've been told by Dave Gaider that Loghain was plotting against Cailan BEFORE Ostagar:

Read what he said again without jumping to conclusions.

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to
act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily
susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the
player's perception.

Loghain had obviously been fighting with Cailen on matters, but that doesn't mean he plotted to kill him. There's no indication that Loghain planned to kill Cailen before Ostagar except from a knight who's suspicions are impossible, Wynne's prejudice against Uldred (she even admits she may be prejudiced), and the Couslands, who Howe could have killed on his own, and if successful told the King any story he wanted. Gaider is being deliberately vague about what Loghain did that is villainous. Loghain did quite a few terrible things in the name of saving the kingdom afterall.

It is your interpretation that is far from possible.

Why do you think Loghain's men are so convinced of your treachery when they've been there? They saw a very different cause of the King's death than you.

Why would Wynne not call Loghain a liar when he gave his reasoning? Because she knows he has a point. She is just as guilty as Loghain when it comes to Ostagar, and grudgingly admits she was mistaken about him in another dialogue.

Why is it that only those trying to put Alistair on the throne take your Ostagar suspicions seriously? Because they're playing politics. You, the Grey Warden, are their dupe and the key to putting royal blood back on the throne.

Loghain could not have betrayed Cailen in the sense most people think. You want Word of God? It's right there in the dialogue comments. He believes he couldn't have saved Cailen.

Gaider must enjoy yanking you all about. These forums would make an excellent argument for why civil society requires a system of justice instead of letting the mob get its desire for blood. When you execute Loghain, that is not justice, it is a murder of prejudice.

...which really makes me appreciate Gaider and the other writers work on this. What is darker than a fantasy which can make you a villain without you even knowing it? The story manipulates the player's prejudice against Loghain until the end, like an inner demon urging the player to give in to his hatred and set reason aside. It's rather beautiful in its way.

Modifié par Asylumer, 09 janvier 2010 - 02:29 .

[Asylumer]

Ariella wrote...

Actually, the second cutscene with Howe talks about battles going on, and you CAN get involved in part of the war directly, by a Chanter's board side quest called Loghain's push, where he sends men to seize the land of Bann Talmonn, who refuses to bend knee to Loghain.

You say that like it was a good thing. If you read the codexes on Ferelden politics you'd know that it is very unstable, and Loghain was trying to raise a new army. Loghain and his daughter were commoners.

Has it occurred to you that the rebels may have had their own reasons for turning against Loghain? Like.. real reasons instead of fantasies?

[Asylumer]

fantasypisces wrote...
So why kill a good amount of the Ferelden fighting force which would then make it even easier for Orlais to invade?

It's funny how this hypothetical is only supporting my primary argument.

Even if Loghain was crazy obsessed with Orlais, why go through with a plan which leaves most of the army destroyed? Many folks just assume he was just stupid in betraying Cailen, but never stop to think if he betrayed Cailen at all. Sure, if he quit the field to kill the King it would leave little question, but there are better ways of regicide that wouldn't leave Ferelden so vulnerable.

The Blight thing I took from David Gaider's quote that was just posted on this thread.

Oh wait you wouldn't though, to you she would be perfectly sane because
outside that one event in her life she has always made rational
dicisions.

You missed the point. Loghain made a rational decision that concerns his so-called ZOMG ORLESSIAN obsession which supposedly made him kill Cailen. If he didn't kill Anora in the name of stopping those evil Orlessians, he wasn't quite ready to be sent off to the funny farm.

But let's say I agree with you that he does regret losing the men. Does he regret his plan? No, he does not.

That's a lot to assume, and your reasoning is way off. If they meant to him as pawns, why would he care for their names and families?

That last question is rhetorical by the way. You'd have to be blind not to see his regret for the loss of life. If he didn't regret the plan then, again, consider whether there was a plan at all. Or you can believe he should feel regret for something you only assumed he did...

If Loghain would have charged with his heavy infantry when the signal
was lit, I think there is a VERY good chance Ferelden would have won,
but he didn't

Wynne isn't so sure, and she saw the battlefield

But I think we agree that if Loghain did actually betray the king (with passive regicide), his action would be very stupid and weaken Ferelden for any Orlesian assault. We are in perfect agreement there.

[tallon1982]

This is like watching a tennis match now...And I don't know the bloody score!

[fantasypisces]

tallon1982 wrote...

This is like watching a tennis match now...And I don't know the bloody score!

Lol

[tallon1982]

Don't stick out that tongue unless you mean it! Kidding lol



Anyway I think we've beaten the dead horse with a stick a bit too much here.

[fantasypisces]

You missed the point. Loghain made a rational decision that concerns his so-called ZOMG ORLESSIAN obsession which supposedly made him kill Cailen. If he didn't kill Anora in the name of stopping those evil Orlessians, he wasn't quite ready to be sent off to the funny farm.

I don't think anything had to do with Anora in regards to the Orlesians, she was seperate from it. The Orlesian obsession had to do with Cailan. So he killed Cailan. Anora never called in Orlesians, she never even mentions them, therefore she is seperate from the whole plan (obsession) and does not need to be killed. The only reason he would have to kill her would be to become King, which is not part of his plan. I think he is perfectly fine keeping her on the thrown, but by being the Regent he can influence her.

That's a lot to assume, and your reasoning is way off. If they meant to him as pawns, why would he care for their names and families?

I don't think he does care for their names and families after the fact, it doesn't mean he doesn't know them. It could be rhetorical and it is lost on me, but I don't see it. I see him agreeing that they had value in regards to what his plans were. But in the end just because he knew them from previously, just not mean he cares in the end.

Wynne isn't so sure, and she saw the battlefield

That's because the plan Loghain gave to Cailan was doomed to fail, it was a bad strategy so Cailan would die. I'm of the opinion (and I didn't explicitly state that, so I apologize) that since the Orlesians were not there yet, since they were not even in the country yet, and therefore wouldn't get there for the fight (since both men agreed they would make their stand that night) That Loghain could then have made a better plan, and through that better plan they would have won. But since Loghain was so deadset from the start to kill Cailan, he did not vocalize a better plan. Even though it would have been better since Orlais was no where in sight.

But I think we agree that if Loghain did actually betray the king (with passive regicide), his action would be very stupid and weaken Ferelden for any Orlesian assault. We are in perfect agreement there.

Hoorah :happy:
We might just have to leave it at this, and agree to disagree. I know it was meant as a rhetorical question to Wynne, but I still don't think he regrets anything. I think he is just implying they weren't worthless.

[fantasypisces]

tallon1982 wrote...

Don't stick out that tongue unless you mean it! Kidding lol

Anyway I think we've beaten the dead horse with a stick a bit too much here.

Well, if it is an invitation... erm, uhh...

Anyway, yeah I just pulled the 'agree to disagree' card. It was fun having the banter though asylumer

Modifié par fantasypisces, 09 janvier 2010 - 03:51 .

[tallon1982]

Anora is respected by Orlais btw

[fantasypisces]

tallon1982 wrote...

Anora is respected by Orlais btw

Yeah, the whole "A single flower amongst brambles" line.
If anything having Anora on the throne is better for Loghain since Orlais does respect her. Following the whole, less likely to attack someone your respect, line of thinking.

[Asylumer]

fantasypisces wrote...

I don't think anything had to do with Anora in regards to the Orlesians, she was seperate from it. The Orlesian obsession had to do with Cailan. So he killed Cailan. Anora never called in Orlesians, she never even mentions them, therefore she is seperate from the whole plan (obsession) and does not need to be killed. The only reason he would have to kill her would be to become King, which is not part of his plan. I think he is perfectly fine keeping her on the thrown, but by being the Regent he can influence her.

But he wouldn't be doing everything in his power to ensure Ferelden was safe from Orlais. He knows this. Shale knows this. If he was insane with obsession, he wouldn't take that chance. So why say he was insane at all?

I don't think he does care for their names and families after the fact, it doesn't mean he doesn't know them. It could be rhetorical and it is lost on me, but I don't see it. I see him agreeing that they had value in regards to what his plans were. But in the end just because he knew them from previously, just not mean he cares in the end.

He made it a point to Wynne. He lost a lot more than she did on that day. Given the context of that conversation, I'm surprised you maintain your stance. Why else would be bring up their names and families if not to make a point of how much they meant to him?